Caramel Albino Question

Can someone tell me why this morph is named this way when it is clearly NOT an Albino? Neither does in interact with other Albino genes.

Thanks.

It is an Albino, T + albino (Tyrosinase +) whereas a regular Albino is T- Albino (Tyrosinase - )

They are still albinos. Just different type of albinism.

The normal white and yellow albinos are Tyrosinase Negative (T-). The caramels are Tyrosinase Positive (T+).
The Tyrosinase enzyme is still functional in Caramels, which gives it that color, where as normal albinos lack that enzyme.

Edit: Deborah beat me!

I still don't understand. How is it qualified as an Albino. For any species, an albino has to have a congenital absence of pigment in the skin and hair (if applicable; which are white) and the eyes (typically pink).

All the images of Caramel Albinos clearly have pigment and clearly have black eyes. So to me, it's clearly not Albino.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I still don't understand. How is it qualified as an Albino. For any species, an albino has to have a congenital absence of pigment in the skin and hair (if applicable; which are white) and the eyes (typically pink).

All the images of Caramel Albinos clearly have pigment and clearly have black eyes. So to me, it's clearly not Albino.

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Deborah and Satomi are correct with T+ and T-. Albinoism can vary in different ways in - and + in different species.

Take humans for example I had a albino friend growing up, his name was Randy. Any how Randy was pale white of course, the lightest blonde hair you could imagine and the lightest blue eyes possible.

This is the same thing with albino lions, they're pitch white with sky blue eyes. The typical red eye white skin thing is what is commonly looked at. Again it just veries from species and what type of albino gene is being carried.

There is different shades of yellows, red, and blues just like there is with albinos.

The way I was taught in vet school is that an albino animal/human is one that is incapable of producing pigment. Now, in the reptile world, we have become accustomed to calling a white and yellow snake an albino. In fact it is not a TRUE albino as defined by lack of pigment. Animals have two different types of pigments that can be expressed at varying levels. The yellow/red pigments are known as pheomelanin, and the brown/black pigments are eumelanin. In the classic albino snake, what you have going on is actually a lack of the eumelanin... therefor the really should be called aeumelanistic rather than albino. What everyone said in the comments above about the tyrosinase is true, and will affect the color of the snake. Basically what I am saying is that the reptile/zoo world has been slack about terminology and so albino snakes are really not true albinos, but do lack certain pigments depending on the type of morph. A true albino snake would be pure white with pink eyes :) Hope this helps and makes sense!

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I still don't understand. How is it qualified as an Albino. For any species, an albino has to have a congenital absence of pigment in the skin and hair (if applicable; which are white) and the eyes (typically pink).

All the images of Caramel Albinos clearly have pigment and clearly have black eyes. So to me, it's clearly not Albino.

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They can produce the melenin not found in regular albinos and actually have dark red eyes.

And some albino dogs will actually be white with blue eyes. Like the lion example mentioned previously. Not all albinos have red eyes.

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Definition of ALBINO

: an organism exhibiting deficient pigmentation; especially : a human being that is congenitally deficient in pigment and usually has a milky or translucent skin, white or colorless hair, and eyes with pink or blue iris and deep-red pupil

source websters dictionary.

By that definition it is not lacking all pigment it is deficient in pigment. All albino strains, caramel, regular, lav, and all others are deficient in certain pigment with red eyes. Pretty sure that clears it up.

i would just call them caramel, problem solved.

many people simply call the gene caramel, and now when people say "caramel albino" other people might get confused and wonder: is it just a caramel, or a double-recessive caramel + albino?

Thanks guys. I understand the technicalities of it. It's just I have certain expectation of what an Albino should look like and I just don't see it when I look at the Caramel.

basically BPs just have more different pigments than humans do, and for the definition its good enough if one is knocked out. which gives you a variety of things that can justifyably be called albinos, while in humans or animals that mainly only have one pigment there only is one albino version.

you knock out the black pigment and its an albino, which leaves you with a white pigment, a yellow pigment, and a light brown pigment.

judging from the optics, i would say albinos have the white and the yellow one. lavender albinos only have the yellow one which causes the skin to get translucent and the color of the blood makes the lavender hues. and toffe and candy and caramels have white, yellow, and light brown.

oh and.... if you get rid of all pigments you would not get a white snake with red eyes, the really white ones really have a lot of white pigment in the skin. With everything gone, it should look pinkish/lavendery with red eyes.

I stand corrected. I was merely repeated what I was taught about snakes in school, our professor used albino snakes as an example and taught us that the reptile world terminology was wrong. Turns out he was wrong, and I was wrong for not doing the followup research... so I started reading and it turns out snakes have three different pigments...

"Albinism in amphibians and reptiles can result in patterned skin in white, yellow or red. The color pattern of a normal corn snake is a mixture of black, red and white. In a corn snake lacking melanin (amelanistic) a red and white skin results. This is because amphibians and reptiles possess three types of chromataphores (pigment cells): melanophores, xanthophores and iridophores, in a similar skin structure to that of frogs. Melanophores contain brown or black pigments (melanin). Xanthophores contain red and yellow pigments. Iridophores contain crystals, which diffract the light, resulting in iridescence or scattering. In albinism the melanin is gone, and so the black pigment is removed and the snake appears red and white. The other pigments can also be affected by genetic conditions, resulting in a range of color combinations. Amphibians and reptiles can display a wide variety of color defects stemming from inherited deficiencies, or defects in the chemical process of making pigments." -http://www.webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/7I.html

Anyway, it is an interesting topic :)

...and just found this interesting too... same webpage

"Leucism is sometimes mistaken for albinism, but leucism is a condition characterized by reduced pigmentation in animals. It affects all pigments, not just melanin, and animals with leucism have normal eye color, while animals with albinism tend to have red eyes."

So white is not a pigment on its own, but a reduction of the three pigments that are already present...?

"Iridophores contain crystals, which diffract the light, resulting in iridescence or scattering."

my wild guess would be, since BPs dont show iridescence, that these could be the white ones.

anyway i reckon there must be something, because there is a visual difference between the extremely white piebald white, and the translucent skin of some BELs and lavender albinos, where color from tissue and blood comes through.

some have so translucent skin that as hatchlings you can see the black of their eyeballs through the top of their head. but not with an all-white pied, that white is intransparent. ive also seen cases of white patterning on top of the translucency.

look at the second and third picture here:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/leche/ thats white on translucent, also you see the eyeballs shine through the head.

for comparison:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/lesser-pied/

But you corrected me on one thing (maybe), i believed there to be a brown pigment that is seperate from the black one. if there is only one, that is brown in low concentrations and black in high concentrations, how do you make medium grey or light grey? but then, maybe the brown is a mix of yellow and black, and if you remove the yellow you get the greys.

I'd like to add this little tidbit...

True blue eyes are the result of a complete lack of pigment in the irises.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

i would just call them caramel, problem solved.

many people simply call the gene caramel, and now when people say "caramel albino" other people might get confused and wonder: is it just a caramel, or a double-recessive caramel + albino?

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Yes, seems I've not seen "caramel" with the original "albino" part lately. Names usually change to avoid confusion over time. For example lesser platinum to just lesser, jungle pastel to just pastel.

Fascinating read guys, I have not much else to add but I learned a lot scanning this thread. :sweeet: