Siamese and Blues??

I heard that Siamese and Blues have complications with birth and often die giving birth or struggle with fertility issues. Is this true, and where can I read about this?

I couldn't find anything on here and heard it from word of mouth. Any expert knowledge would be appreciated since im starting out with both of these two patterns. :mad:

I have blues that do fine. I have one now that is mothering hers and another litter that is about a week older, because their black and white momma wont take care of them. I had a siamese that bred ok, but was a complete monster when she had babies. Would come flying out of anywhere to bite the crap out of you. I fed her off. One of her sons just threw me a siamese female. I'm gonna hang onto her and see what happens.

I have Russian Blues, American Blues, and Pink Eyed Siamese. They all breed fine.

However, I've had some random die offs from blues over the years. And only the blues. All tub mates, non blue siblings/relatives are 100% healthy and fine. It was really strange. And the individuals who died weren't old(a year old or younger) or never showed any issues prior to death. And maybe its just a coincidence and not really correlated with being blue, but all the random deaths I've personally had were blues and only blues.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

I have blues that do fine. I have one now that is mothering hers and another litter that is about a week older, because their black and white momma wont take care of them. I had a siamese that bred ok, but was a complete monster when she had babies. Would come flying out of anywhere to bite the crap out of you. I fed her off. One of her sons just threw me a siamese female. I'm gonna hang onto her and see what happens.

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That's weird about the blue not talking care of her babies because of the colors. Is this commin in the blues? I I have American blues if this makes a difference.

As far as the Siamese the only reading I could find on them was that when they was imported to America.

Pet shops couldn't keep up with supply and demand and bred them to any pattern. It ruined the true Siamese and then pet shops quit carrying them because they became super aggressive.

No, my blue is raising her litter and another. Its a different mom thats not doing a good momma job. I don't know that it has anything to do with color.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I have Russian Blues, American Blues, and Pink Eyed Siamese. They all breed fine.

However, I've had some random die offs from blues over the years. And only the blues. All tub mates, non blue siblings/relatives are 100% healthy and fine. It was really strange. And the individuals who died weren't old(a year old or younger) or never showed any issues prior to death. And maybe its just a coincidence and not really correlated with being blue, but all the random deaths I've personally had were blues and only blues.

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Thanks for the information. Have you noticed or could you say that Siamese are aggressive? I rather get tagged by my snakes then a rat. Not that I'm scared but I rather get tagged and who on earth wants to deal with a moody rat because of the pattern.

Any one else with information about these two breeds of rats would be appreciated.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

No, my blue is raising her litter and another. Its a different mom thats not doing a good momma job. I don't know that it has anything to do with color.

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O ok I got you miss read sorry. Here is the article I was actually reading about Siamese being a aggressive breed.

I was glad you mentioned about yours it's very interesting the info I was talking about is at the very bottom.

http://www.afrma.org/siameserat.htm.

I breed both blues and siamese. I don't have any aggression issues or nursing problems, but I do have more blues, solid, hooded, any blue at all, that get inner ear infections and have respiratory problems. I produce a LOT of rats and it is the blues that have these problems the most. I rarely see it until they're 3 to 4 months old. My vet told me that the immunity the get from nursing carries on until about the 3 to 4 month range and that's why it shows up then. I used to treat with tetracycline, now they're just feeders when that happens. My hairless are the same way, just genetically weaker I'm thinking. All of my blues and siamese are gentle, all my rats in general are. But, I've been culling any aggressive adults for years.

Hmm now that Wilomn mentioned it, two american blues that I had(but did not breed. They weren't related to my stock), suffered inner ear problems. When I found them dead, there was blood pooling out of their ears. At the time, I just wrote it off as them getting in a fight....

And no to the Siamese being aggressive. All of mine are sweethearts. My favorite rats are all Siamese because they are so social and gentle.





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Thanks for all the helpful information guys. I've decided that I am going to work with these two genes since there is no scientific information on problems with these two.

I haven't noticed any more issues with my Siamese then with any of my others. Mine tend to be good moms and usually not super aggressive. I had 1 that took a chunk out if me once and it was a Siamese Rex but then I have had others try as well. I do currently have 1 with a head tilt but again I had a black hooded with the same thing before her.

As for blues, I know someone who does great with them and I even have some of his stock. Blue females don't like me.. They tend to die while having or just after their first litter, but are fine up till then. I currently have 2, one is on her second or third litter and is looking awful, if she survives this batch I need to pull her for a bit, which I rarely have to do. The other one looks great but I don't think I have had a litter from her yet. But again, I know other breeders that do great with them!

Blues have had a history of health problems, particularly hemophilia. However this is not directly attributed to the color itself, but more likely to certain bloodlines. The most accepted hypothesis is that when blue was first discovered, and subsequently became popular, it was indiscriminately bred to produce more blue. Health was ignored, and as a result those rats with health problems produced babies who inherited the health problems, and thus perpetuated the issue. Hemophilia has been the most widely documented (within the pet hobby) health problem suffered by blue rats. The best way to avoid this issue is to obtain healthy animals from healthy lines and work to breed healthy animals to healthy animals, and keep records on your litters to be sure you are breeding healthy animals. Any animal with issues should be removed from the breeding program. A relative of an animal with a health problem should be bred after great consideration, with more reservation being placed on close direct relatives (siblings, parents, grandparents). This of course takes extra effort, in terms of record keeping and observation. For many feeder operations this may not be worthwhile. Also note, this only applies to "blue" (and all its synonyms), and not Russian Blue. Russian Blue is an entirely different gene and has not been found to have the same issues.

Where Siamese is concerned... like blue, when it was discovered and became popular, it was bred to anything and everything to produce more. No considerations for temperament were made, and somewhere down the line aggressive animals were introduced and produced more aggressive animals, and so on. As these rats are inbred to produce more of the same color, that propensity for aggression was concentrated into the bloodline, and more aggressive animals were produced. Thus Siamese obtained the reputation of being aggressive. However this is not a trait of the pattern itself, but rather of bloodline. If you want to breed Siamese, obtain friendly, well-tempered animals and only breed friendly and well-tempered animals. Consider not just the animal's temperament toward you, but also toward other rats. Cull any animal that shows any sign of aggression, toward people or other rats. Temperament is easier and less time consumer to select for than health, because it is more easily and more immediately observed. You pick out babies who are inquisitive and friendly, over babies who are nervous, shy, and skittish. Any animal that bites is an obvious cull. Out of those babies you keep, you then keep the mothers who are willing to let you handle your babies, and aren't overly nervous, anxious, and certainly don't bite. Any biting mothers get culled. Then out of those babies you again select the most inquisitive, friendly, calm babies. And so on. Keep in mind that rats, especially males, can develop aggressive behaviors as they hit full maturity around 6 months of age. This is when the hormones really starts surging. If you breed males before this age, and they then become aggressive (either toward you or other rats), you'll want to cull them and be cautious about keeping and breeding their offspring. Once you know your lines well enough and you are confident you've cemented in good temperament, you may not have to worry about it as much, but especially in the beginning you need to keep this in mind.

In the past I've only dabbled in American Blue, and didn't have huge issues. One rat was allergic to almost everything under the sun though. I've worked with Siamese (and other colorpoints) extensively, and had no temperament issues at all. My rats were very friendly and affectionate, but I also selected very strongly for good temperament.

My blues are some of the nicest rats, and I've never noticed any issues regarding breeding for either my blues or my siamese. I think it's more lines than the actual color genes. In other words "Bob's Blues" might have issues, but not all blues... same for Siamese... "Kate's Siamese line" might be aggro, but not all siamese.

The closest I've had to an issue was the siamese sometimes grab a finger when I open bins because they think I'm handing out treats. Only my siamese and albinos ever seem to do this. The rest 'see' it's a finger. I think this is the red/albino eyes having issues earlier, since it's also only older rats, not the younger albinos or siamese.

I can say that I've bred both and actually had a really nice siamese line going for a while. My siamese rats were the most laid back out of all of them, but I had really sweet and relaxed stock that they were bred from. Just be careful of where and who you get the from and don't breed any rats that have noticeable health or temperament issues.

Some interesting information in this thread glad I got it going.

The tips on culling the aggressive ones I was already going to do. Tbh I didn't think culling the aggressive and keeping the calm would lead to a more friendly rat down the road. I guess I can see that working as a mental trait being passed down.

Excited to be working with Siamese picking them up on Sunday at my local show. The guy who sells the rats has very tame ones that are all handled on a daily basis from him, his wife and children.

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Originally Posted by Diamond Serpents

Tbh I didn't think culling the aggressive and keeping the calm would lead to a more friendly rat down the road.

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Aggression in rodents is heritable, so culling will help establish a nice tame colony.

I've seen many blues and siamese rats do just fine with breeding and raising young :confusd:

i find that Siamese have the same temperament as other rats

i had 7 blues two all blue and six blue hooded out of the 7 only one was a good mom she gave birth to 25 babies but 3 died at birth and one died later so she had 21 babies she never had a big litter again but like someone said the blues look like :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: after raising their babies and it does not seem to matter if it 3 or 23 babies they look the same at the end out of the 7 only 3 would have baby the two all blue and one of the hooded blues the one hooded blue could not nurse her litter at all one over the all blue would have around 12 babies but she would all ways end up with 3 i think the blues have trouble lating milk for their babies so out of 7 one was a good breeder 2 could not take care of there babies and 4 never bred i was hoping they would so i never fed them off thei just die around 2 years old