explain gtp genetics to a ball python person

can someone explain how gtp genetics work, or post a sticky or a link to a website that can? as a bp breeder i am mighty confused, i struck up a conversation with a gtp breeder and he got me interested and threw me for a loop when he told me gtp genetics don't act like bp genes, recessive, codom, and dominant and that he didn't want to get into it because it was a lot to explain. i've been in his position many times with bp genetics noobs, so i was hoping for some help here.

genetics is genetics no matter what the species. co-dom, dom, and recessive pass on the same no matter what the species. I dont breed gtps but the only thing I can think of is the localities being a little different looking or maybe the traits that are desirable in them are polygenetic.

i can't seem to find any internet sources explaining how they work, only book recommendations. and this guy said he was breeding, essentially, a blue to a blue and that he didn't know if any of the babies would be blue, and that there wouldn't be any "super" blues. And i asked him if blue was recessive, codominant, or dominant and he said that isn't how it works in gtps.

They are nothing like bp. if you breed blue to blue you can get green. they aren't inheritable by simple Mendelian genetics.

And not all genetics is simple codom, dom, and recessive. There are a number of traits that don't act like this.

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

They are nothing like bp. if you breed blue to blue you can get green. they aren't inheritable by simple Mendelian genetics.

And not all genetics is simple codom, dom, and recessive. There are a number of traits that don't act like this.

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THIS ^^^^ is what i was trying to ask about. are gtp genes just completely random or is there some order to them, perhaps a different method of organization (not Mendelian) ?

A polygene, multiple factor, multiple gene inheritance, or quantitative gene is a group of non-allelic genes that together influence a phenotypic trait.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

A polygene, multiple factor, multiple gene inheritance, or quantitative gene is a group of non-allelic genes that together influence a phenotypic trait.

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Thanks for clearing that up. Now where did I put my dictionary..

What he means is that it takes multiple genes to produce a certain look to a GTP. The problem is that there are different ways of doing this, so a blue to a blue might not produce a blue, since they have different genes that produced that blue color. The genes individually wont produce blue, but they do together. I think if you have two blue GTP's from the same breeding, that they would have a better chance at producing blue GTP's, since its the same gene combination.

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Originally Posted by Kensa

Thanks for clearing that up. Now where did I put my dictionary..

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LMAO oh this sooooo made my night. :D

wow this is really intriguing. non-allelic is the key phrase for me here.

I think it shoots down to line breeding for polygenetic traits, much like dog breeders breed dogs or crested gecko breeders breed crested gecko morphs. It can't be narrowed down to punnet squares like ball pythons, but instead, you use caveman logic and put blue with blue and hope you get blue.
Although, word on the street is that there is an albino GTP or two floating around out there.

Um, it's actually even simpler than this. It's line breeding . . . just selectin brighter and brighter individuals, to keep them reproducing. Some individuals will look even brighter when they are adults, some will look much worse as adults. It's not a controlable factor.

The other thing that plays a VERY important role in GTP breeding outcomes is the locale - just like with reticulated pythons where knowing the locale of an animal is quite important to understanding its size range, and other factors, understanding GTP locale information will give you an idea of what the offspring will look like as an adult. Few people try for pure lines of GTP, most or two - three locale crossings to try and enhance the yellows or blues, Biak x Aru is a REALLY common one in this example.

Keep in mind, a polygenic trait is something like the Tiger gene in morelia, it IS heritable to a point, it will either be a weak influence, no influence, or strong influence, but with line breeding, if you cross an ugly parent to a nice parent you are likely to not produce any ones that resemble the nice parent, but more than likely a mix.

makes total sense now! how long can line breeding generally be practiced before you face problems/ defects?

Can we all just have a moment of silence in thanks to ball pythons for having such straightforward genetics?

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

Can we all just have a moment of silence in thanks to ball pythons for having such straightforward genetics?

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You may think that I have not "Thanked" you for this post. However, I have actually "Thanked" you silently. Trust me. :P

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

You may think that I have not "Thanked" you for this post. However, I have actually "Thanked" you silently. Trust me. :P

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Why do I get the feeling I should start locking my bedroom window at night?

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Originally Posted by hypersomniacjoo

makes total sense now! how long can line breeding generally be practiced before you face problems/ defects?

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I've heard 3 generation crosses back to parental lines is fine - but it's really more complex than that. Line Breeding causes something that is referred to as "genetic depression" when your stock genes end up kind of the same. . . . this is why genetic outcrossing becomes so important - which is possible when you are working with dominant / co-doms.

The thing is, when you work with the same line over and over again you start to see that the flaws of that line get enhanced. Then you also get to see the unfortunate things like lethal recessive genes become expressed. Many organisms are het for lethal combos, when you line breed (inbreed) you run the risk of hitting these combos with the young, and then leading in retarded, deformed, or lethal during development offspring.

On the opposite end of the spectrum. This is more common in more advance genomes like that of humans and higher structured animals. So in theory its safe to linebreed reptiles fairly deep before you witness the negative effects. But to put it in perspective I'll quote a famous genetics author - "You wouldn't be here if it weren't for a little (or a lot) of inbreeding"

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

Why do I get the feeling I should start locking my bedroom window at night?

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As long as you keep the blinds open so I can peek in the window!!!:P

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

As long as you keep the blinds open so I can peek in the window!!!:P

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Don't you be trying to get a peek at my rack! I know, I know, it's very nice, not every day do you see such a lovely 10 high 41 qt. I helped built it myself!

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

Don't you be trying to get a peek at my rack! I know, I know, it's very nice, not every day do you see such a lovely 10 high 41 qt. I helped built it myself!

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I already got to see a nice little peek on FB!:banana:
Was hoping to get the full view!!:tongue2:
And you did a :cens0r: fine job building that rack I must say!

Cody explained it pretty well, but I want to just add an example. Traits that are influenced by several loci come out more from line breeding because you are using less diversity, thus increasing your chances of producing the same traits in the babies as the sire and dam. When adding in new animals, you add in new genes and reduce the chances of being able to predict offspring phenotypes.

On a simpler scale, it's similar to eye coloration and skin pigmentation in humans... there is a sliding scale where all genes from one side of the spectrum will produce a lot of pigmentation (as in dark brown eyes and all dominant genes) and the other side of the spectrum will remove (not produce) eye pigmentation (as in light blue/gray eyes and all recessive genes). Polygenic traits work like this sliding scale, but I believe GTPs (and others) have several pigment traits which is why you can get a green with also a lot of black spots.

Hey Chris!! Good to see ya! :gj:

Thanks Kali! I'm not on here as much as I'd like to be.

And just why is that?? We miss you! :D