Nuking Mites from Orbit with AaronP

I posted this to a thread earlier and I thought I'd repost this here to make it easier to search for.

Disclaimer: This information was researched via multiple sources on the internet, none of these ideas are necessarily original however it is difficult to find it all from once source.

Disclaimer two: The following is not intended for individuals with 1-2 snakes, this is intended only for a collection size of 10 or more animals.

http://i.imgur.com/dmEuh4y.jpg

Prevent-A-Mite = RID = Lice Spray (Seriously they even Smell the same!). They are literally the exact same thing. The dead give away is the "0.50% Permethrin" on the label. This can be purchased basically anywhere (It's easiest to find it at Chain Pharmacies like RITE-AID, CVS, or Wallgreens). It's also a lot cheaper than PAM. If you've already purchased and are using PAM then more power to you.

http://i.imgur.com/5fWK2fo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8DtH7CQ.jpg

NIX Solution: The NIX solution works basically the same way as PAM (both use Permethrin in different concentrations) but the big difference here is you can directly apply this to the animal which is good if you're paranoid about the little buggers not dying simply from being drowned in a warm soaking or from indirect contact with PAM.

The Battle Plan:

Phase 1: PREPARE THE ARMORY

1. There is no Homeopathic crap here, we're going to use good ole' fashion pest genocide chemicals.
2. Our first line of defense requires the NIX Solution, and here's how you make it:
   
   • Buy 1 (or 2) 59ml Bottle of NIX Lice Treatment. If you buy the family pack it will be 2 59ml bottles.
   • Buy 1 (or 2) Gallon(s) (4 Litres) of Distilled Water
   • Buy 1-2 Spray Bottles (or use one that you've never used before)
   • Mix 1 59ml bottle of NIX with 1 Gallon of Distilled water. (I found it easier if I took a clean tupperware container and poured some of the water into it and all of the NIX and then THOROUGHLY mixed it this way it disperses in the water much better, then you can add the pre-mixture to the rest of the water)
   • After mixing the water and NIX pour the NIX Solution into your water bottle.
3. Our next line of Defense is simply the Lice Spray (PAM/RID) we will use both of these for very specific tasks.

http://i.imgur.com/C3mu26X.jpg

Phase 2: Relief & Cleaning!

1. Remove all of the snakes from their tubs and put them in temporary holder tubs with warm water. I let them soak in there while you go onto the next step.
2. While your snakes are getting some much needed relief in the form of DROWNING THEIR ENEMIES you will then thoroughly clean their enclosures.
3. Cleaning & Treating The Racks
   
   • Unplug the Rack
   • Remove ALL of the Tubs
   • The way I clean the racks is to liberally spray every surface, nook, cranny, and crevice of the rack with the NIX solution. DO NOT SPRAY THE TUBS WITH THE NIX SOLUTION! YOU WILL LEARN WHY SOON!
   • Once you've sprayed everything take paper towels and clean off all of the excess moisture
   • After wiping everything down spray the rack again in the same places but with very light sprits and also spray the surrounding carpet and under/behind/beside the rack. The goal here is only to leave enough NIX Solution behind so that there will be a small residue that will kill any of the freedom haters that may still be alive.
4. Treating The Tubs
   
   • At this point I'm assuming your snake's tubs are clean and preferably on paper or paper towels and not on Aspen, Cypress or anything that isn't paper. If they are not then you should thoroughly clean the tubs using your normal methods and use a Paper Substrate (Unprinted Newspaper, News Paper, packing paper, paper towels, whatever just not Aspen, Dino Snow, Cypress, or anything else that isn't 1 sheet of something).
   • If they tubs are reasonably clean (or have been cleaned) then spray the SUBSTRATE with the PAM/RID/Lice Spray and allow it to dry and then place it back into the rack

Phase 3: Directly Treating the Snakes
Now that you've thoroughly cleaned their environments and treated the tubs with PAM/RID/Lice Spray it's time you take our snake friends out of their small baths and treat them directly.

1. Remove the snake from the tub it was soaking in and drain the tub of it's water. If there are dead mites on the side them rinse them off.
2. Now put the snake back in the same tub it was soaking in and spray it with the NIX Solution. Don't go hog wild and drench it in it just enough to lightly cover it. I like to genetly massage the snake after spraying it to get the solution inbetween its scales to get the little demons that live there.
3. Leave the snake alone in the tub while you treat the other snakes the same way. Once you have treated the last one go back to the first one and move to the next step.
4. At this point the snake should have been chilling out with a light helping of the NIX Solution. Now return it to its newly cleaned tub. DO NOT PUT ITS WATER DISH BACK WITH IT.
5. After 24 hours return your snake's rightful water dish.

Phase 4: You've won the battle but not the war!
By now you've thoroughly treated your snakes and their environments. However persistence is key here. To win this war you need to repeat this every 5-7 days for at least 3 weeks, I recommend at least a month personally. With an average size collection (20-30 snakes) you will still have plenty of the NIX Solution as well as PAM/RID/Lice Spray.


Phase 5: Sometimes OCD is a good thing.
Phase 5 is all about preventatives. I would strongly recommend standard QT procedures for new arrivals (PAM/RID/Lice Spray treat the tubs) and also every few months do a NIX Solution treatment of the Rack, just as a precaution. It may seem like a hassle but trust me It's nothing compared to the alternative.

You're insane, why would you do this much work?
Because honestly the last time I depended on just PAM it didn't really get the job done. I read up a great deal on the NIX Solution and I was willing to give it a shot but the varying degrees of results bothered me but I wanted the ability to directly treat the snake beyond off the shelf solutions that are not just expensive but not always available. My method combines two well known disciplines of Mite removal and I believe covers all of the grounds you want to with not only killing the Mite Demons and their Hellspawn but also killing their Xenomorph Eggs and doing so on your animal and their environment giving you the best chance of genocidal success you're looking for for those eight legged b*stards.

http://i.imgur.com/q5Y5yHD.jpg


COMMON SENSE WARNING!!!
Listen we're working with unnatural chemicals here. Apply some common sense and do NOT increase the amount of NIX you mix with the gallon of water. The proportions stated are tried and true. Do NOT go crazy with the PAM/RID/Lice Spray, seriously you will only do harm to your snakes.

Thank you for this amazing write up, I now have it booked marked. I will be using this if I ever get mites.

Can we get a sticky for this please?

I love your battle plan! Definitely keeping this around if (heaven forbid) I ever have to deal with the little buggers. One question though: is the proportion for the solution on the Nix bottle?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MootWorm

I love your battle plan! Definitely keeping this around if (heaven forbid) I ever have to deal with the little buggers. One question though: is the proportion for the solution on the Nix bottle?

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You use 1x 59ml bottle per Gallon (4 liters). 59ml is the standard size that this lice treatment comes in. It is a very small bottle as you can see in the picture but it does say how much is in it. The reason I say it the way I do in the guide is usually you find NIX in a family pack which has two identical bottles in the same box and you should only use 1 bottle per gallon. NIX is a lice treatment just like the lice spray but it has the same chemical (Permethrin) but it is diluted enough when mixed with a gallon of distilled water that it becomes safe to directly treat the snakes while still being potent enough to kill the mites. You should never ever spray your snakes with PAM/RID/Lice Spray, you can and will kill it.

I agree, please make this a sticky thread, very informative. It really helps us Canadians as we don't have Pam or anything here in Canada only nix and stuff, thanks so much for this hopefully I won't have to use any of the things you listed but if I do I will defiantly use this guide thanks again.

That's alot of work compared to my previous battle. It went like this.

1. Ordered snakes online
2. Snakes arrived with mites, they were free
3. Walked into Petco
4. Walked out with Reptile Spray
5. Sprayed snakes, tubs, surrounding area
6. Mites died
7. Rinsed everything and all was well

Cost me $8. I killed them in one treatment. I think having PAM on hand is a good idea but like Reptile Spray much more. It is safer. I personally would never trust a NIX mixture on my animals when there is a better alternative.

Do any of the Canadian keepers know if you can get Reptile Spray? I have suggested it a few times but have never been told if its available there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

That's alot of work compared to my previous battle. It went like this.

1. Ordered snakes online
2. Snakes arrived with mites, they were free
3. Walked into Petco
4. Walked out with Reptile Spray
5. Sprayed snakes, tubs, surrounding area
6. Mites died
7. Rinsed everything and all was well

Cost me $8. I killed them in one treatment. I think having PAM on hand is a good idea but like Reptile Spray much more. It is safer. I personally would never trust a NIX mixture on my animals when there is a better alternative.

---

That $8 bottle won't treat 20+ snakes 4 times. It's also not available everywhere. I'm not saying that this is the easiest method, I'm saying this is the most thorough. A single 6oz can of PAM/RID/Lice Spray will last you a long time if you're only using it for standard QT and I've personally had PAM get the job done by itself but some times it isn't that simple and sometimes you gotta put the extra effort into it.

This entire thing came about because PAM alone wasn't doing it and it was getting very expensive very quick. Not to mention losing valuable time because of being unable to find viable solutions locally that was specifically made for reptiles.

What is the active ingredient in Reptile Spray?

You shouldn't need to treat them 4 times. You can also buy it on Amazon in a big jug. I treated three snakes their tubs and the surrounding area and still had plenty left. I couldn't even tell the bottle had been used. It worked great.

My phone won't open everything on their website but this is it. Maybe you can find the active ingredient. I'm not around a computer or the bottle.
http://naturalchemistry.com/Pet_amp_...tips_info.html

Reptile Spray is available in Canada. There are some sources for it at the company website KMG linked to. And the company said it kills mites at all stages of life like PAM, so it's entirely possible to wipe them out with 1 treatment. Of course, the more cages you have to treat, the better the chances of missing some. I'd still repeat the treatment once or twice.

Awesome write up. Definitely sticky worthy.

"I say we nuke the site from orbit, only way to be sure."

"Permethrin" is a family of chemicals not an individual one.

No offence but I'd prefer to use the one that has been tested and found safe on reptiles.

Provent-a-mite also has a 25-30 day residual effect which the others do not.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

"Permethrin" is a family of chemicals not an individual one.

No offence but I'd prefer to use the one that has been tested and found safe on reptiles.

Provent-a-mite also has a 25-30 day residual effect which the others do not.


dr del

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Not to mention the other 99.5% of the formula that is not necessarily the same. Aaron's writeup is clever and thorough, but I would not be comfortable combining so many chemicals in one space (it would be unreasonable for me to move every rack out of the house for application and drying of so many chemicals). A conservative dose of PAM in the QT tub before every new addition and selective buying from quality breeders has saved me from EVER seeing a mite on my BPs. I do feel for you folks that can't get PAM, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AaronP

That $8 bottle won't treat 20+ snakes 4 times. It's also not available everywhere. I'm not saying that this is the easiest method, I'm saying this is the most thorough. A single 6oz can of PAM/RID/Lice Spray will last you a long time if you're only using it for standard QT and I've personally had PAM get the job done by itself but some times it isn't that simple and sometimes you gotta put the extra effort into it.

This entire thing came about because PAM alone wasn't doing it and it was getting very expensive very quick. Not to mention losing valuable time because of being unable to find viable solutions locally that was specifically made for reptiles.

What is the active ingredient in Reptile Spray?

---

Active Ingredients
Dioctyl Sodium Sulfosuccinate - 2.1%
Undecylenic Acid - 0.5%

The thing with Reptile Spray is it is all natural ingredients, so you don't have to worry about scary chemicals. I used it after KMG suggested it and it worked perfectly in just one use. Because it was recent I'm still keeping an eye out but I'm not at all concerned. It was cheap and after cleaning my 40 gallon tank, large water dish, 2 hides, branch, and feeding container I still have most of the bottle left!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

"Permethrin" is a family of chemicals not an individual one.

No offence but I'd prefer to use the one that has been tested and found safe on reptiles.

Provent-a-mite also has a 25-30 day residual effect which the others do not.


dr del

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Ah, the great advertising game.

PAM is advertised as being tested on animals. The bang on Nix and Rid and Sawyer's is that they have not.

Indulge me for a moment here Derek.

Let's say that tomorrow we found out that plain seltzer water kills mites. Let's also say that there are exactly four manufacturers of seltzer water. All of the formulations are the same - H2O and carbonation.

One of those manufacturers, Spritz-O-Mite, pays to have their seltzer water tested on snakes, the others do not. The tests show that - using reasonable caution - Spritz-O-Mite kills mites and does not immediately kill the snake (I say immediately because none of the tests have been run to show long term impacts).

Does that make Spritz-O-Might safer to use as a mite treatment than the three other seltzer waters with the same formulation that are sold as drinking water?

No, it doesn't.

When you buy PAM, you are in essence buying a seltzer water that has been tested on snakes and comes with directions for applying it on snakes. The other products have not been tested and do not come with instruction. If that puts your mind at ease using PAM - there is nothing wrong with that.

By the way, Sawyer's Clothing Spray - sold for a fraction of the price of PAM and (until recently) made by the same manufacturer and sharing the same EPA product number - also claims a 30 day residual effect.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post1596643

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post2058371

Note that the links may not work anymore. Additionally, at some point during the last 18 months, PAM has changed manufacturers and has a new product number.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samii

Active Ingredients
Dioctyl Sodium Sulfosuccinate - 2.1%
Undecylenic Acid - 0.5%

The thing with Reptile Spray is it is all natural ingredients, so you don't have to worry about scary chemicals. I used it after KMG suggested it and it worked perfectly in just one use. Because it was recent I'm still keeping an eye out but I'm not at all concerned. It was cheap and after cleaning my 40 gallon tank, large water dish, 2 hides, branch, and feeding container I still have most of the bottle left!

---

I'm not saying that it doesn't work or that you should never use it but if you seriously think it has "All natural ingredients" you've been drinking the advertising kool-aid.

The information I provided is not based on me going into walgreens and deciding I knew what I was doing, it was based on research I had done through dozens of different websites as well as calling and talking to individuals who claim to use the NIX Method. The PAM/RID/Lice Spray are all exactly the same, period, that isn't even speculation I know that because when I was able to get access to PAM for QT I bought a can of Lice Spray and not only does it have the same fumes but it works exactly the same.

I didn't create this thread to start up a debate on how some people prefer to remove mights and pre-treat for them. This is the methodology that I use and it has proven to be detrimental to the mites. In a perfect world you would never get mites and you would properly QT every new snake but that doesn't always happen and mites is just one of those things that gets out of control.

On another note I would never only treat a snake for mites once and only once no matter what the bottle says it kills. PAM supposedly kills the eggs too but you're still told to treat a week later.

Indeed,

And I also know that carbon comes in many forms while being chemically identical.

Given the choice of buckminsterfullerenes, soot, graphite or diamond I am also aware that they will generate different reactions when presented to your significant other. :P

I like the testing - it prevents divorce or contusion of the testicles. :rofl:


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Indeed,

And I also know that carbon comes in many forms while being chemically identical.

Given the choice of buckminsterfullerenes, soot, graphite or diamond I am also aware that they will generate different reactions when presented to your significant other. :P

I like the testing - it prevents divorce or contusion of the testicles. :rofl:


dr del

---

The difference we're talking about there though is more like Dasani (Coca Cola Co) Water vs Aquafina (Pepsi Co) water. They're both water with a different label. You're also wrong in the Pemethrin is not a family of Chemicals, Permethrid is part of the pyrethroids family of chemicals.

I agree with Skip, however:


I pay how much for my snakes?


I'll pay the extra couple of bucks for the peace of mind like Del said. If I'm worried about scratching and scraping over 10 bucks, I'll find a new hobby.


*puts snake back into rubbermaid bin on paper towel sheets from dollar store*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Samii

The thing with Reptile Spray is it is all natural ingredients, so you don't have to worry about scary chemicals.

---

FDA policy says that the term natural should apply to foods and products that do not contain added color, artificial flavors, or synthetic substances, but the definition is very vague. So, basically, the pesticide is not synthetic but it is still a pesticide. That makes it toxic, natural or not, and just as scary if used improperly. Many hallucinogenics are all natural, but that doesn't make them good for you. These days, many synthetic pesticides are as safe as natural if used in the proper manner (many synthetic pesticides from the past caused serious harm from overuse rather than simply because they were used at all), but they're both toxic and should be used as sparingly as possible. I think AaronP's method is a great way of getting it done if you can't get it under control any other way, but I would try using minimal pesticides *first* and if the mites aren't gone in a week or so, up the attack then. Mites are horrible, but both synthetic and natural pesticides can kill any kind of animal if ingested in large doses, and while we might have to drink the toxin, it takes a lot less to harm an animal so small. IMHO, anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Puck

I think AaronP's method is a great way of getting it done if you can't get it under control any other way, but I would try using minimal pesticides *first* and if the mites aren't gone in a week or so, up the attack then. Mites are horrible, but both synthetic and natural pesticides can kill any kind of animal if ingested in large doses, and while we might have to drink the toxin, it takes a lot less to harm an animal so small. IMHO, anyway.

---

I absolutely agree with Puck. My method is really only for dealing with an infestation not a new animal that got mites. For situations like that just use PAM/RID/Lice Spray or Reptile Spray (didn't this used to be called Reptile Relief?) or whatever over the counter method you prefer. Whoever if you get a Mite infestation outside of the QT Zone then I would recommend my method. The key to any treatment is persistence though. Do a treatment once a week for 2-3 weeks this will insure the highest possibility of success no matter what product/method you use.

I think this is sticky worthy personally. Someone just needs to add to the first post that this is meant for a full on infestation and not just treating an animal or 2.

Also, I think it is safe to say that the Lcie stuff is tried and true at this point given the amount of breeder who have used it now.

Very nice writeup! I personally wouldn't use any insecticide, whether NIX or PAM, directly on my snakes. I would treat the snakes with something like Reptile Relief or Reptile Spray instead.

Permethrin has a 30-day half life as long as it's not exposed to water or sunlight, so both NIX and PAM should be effective for quite a while after the enclosures are treated.

Game over man.... game over.

Sent from my SPH-D710VMUB using Tapatalk 2

Holy long post.

This is my version

Step 1) spray PAM on paper towel, allow to dry
Step 2) place paper towel in each snakes tub

DONE!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

Holy long post.

This is my version

Step 1) spray PAM on paper towel, allow to dry
Step 2) place paper towel in each snakes tub

DONE!!!

---

trouble for me was that the above didn't work. I had to do basically the same thing as the OP to get mine under control.
Something I have not seen asked is if anyone has any reports of the "Nix" treatment being harmful? I haven't seen any, which means very little, but I have seen a lot of people give the " I don't want to chance it" response.
My experience was not having PAM readily available and finding mites after improper qt, I needed something fast so they didn't get out of control, so I tried the nix. It worked great, just had to retreat a few times. then due to my own foolishness, I ended up having them show up again. So I decided I would pick up a can of PAM at the next show and be done with the problem, as so many had said it was basically foolproof. To make this a bit shorter, PAM by itself didn't do the job. Had to go back to using the nix to treat the snakes and kept treating the racks and such with PAM. Seems to be under control now, but between my being a noob andeverything I needed the extra boost.
And I have not tried the reptile spray so I have no clue if thats better or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darkbird

trouble for me was that the above didn't work. I had to do basically the same thing as the OP to get mine under control.
Something I have not seen asked is if anyone has any reports of the "Nix" treatment being harmful? I haven't seen any, which means very little, but I have seen a lot of people give the " I don't want to chance it" response.
My experience was not having PAM readily available and finding mites after improper qt, I needed something fast so they didn't get out of control, so I tried the nix. It worked great, just had to retreat a few times. then due to my own foolishness, I ended up having them show up again. So I decided I would pick up a can of PAM at the next show and be done with the problem, as so many had said it was basically foolproof. To make this a bit shorter, PAM by itself didn't do the job. Had to go back to using the nix to treat the snakes and kept treating the racks and such with PAM. Seems to be under control now, but between my being a noob andeverything I needed the extra boost.
And I have not tried the reptile spray so I have no clue if thats better or not.

---

The only reports I've found said that cause of issues with the NIX Solution had to do with an improper mixture of the solution (too high a concentration of NIX to Water) or they didn't mix it at all and applied the NIX directly to the animal which of course will harm it, NIX right out of the bottle is 1% Permethrin which is TWICE the strength of PAM which you should never use directly on the animal.

Thanks for this walk through! I'm dealing with a mite issue now, using this as my attack plan. Even bookmarked in the unfortunate event of another invasion!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Indeed,

And I also know that carbon comes in many forms while being chemically identical.

Given the choice of buckminsterfullerenes, soot, graphite or diamond I am also aware that they will generate different reactions when presented to your significant other. :P

I like the testing - it prevents divorce or contusion of the testicles. :rofl:


dr del

---

Derek, this has been discussed on other forums over the past 8 or 9 years. It has only been lightly touched upon on this forum.

How many ways do you think you can mix a 0.5% permethrin solution?

You have 0.5% permethrin and 95% inert ingredients which include propellent. We have had people with doctorates in chemistry debunk the theory that PAM is some magical concoction that is somehow safer in composition that the other 0.5% permethrin products.

The propellant gives of a strong odor and I have had people who work for the Ortho Division of Chevron tell me that (aside from permethrin) the only other harmful ingredient would be the propellant. So it could be argued that a product that is not aerosolized is inherently safer.

I solve that by using Sawyer's - which is a hand pump.

It has also been documented that until recently, Sayer's and PAM were both produced by Coulston under the same EPA registration number.

If people want to pay an extra $10 bucks for instructions so be it. Be when you talk about peace of mind, please name for me one incident wherein the distributor of PAM has reimbursed someone who has had their snake fall ill or die after using the product as directed? You know that snakes sometimes get sick and sometimes even die when PAM is used - right?

Cool - got any links?

I have definitely heard of animals suffering and dying - I think I remember something about hognoses having a lower tolerance?

I could be totally wrong about that though.

I also know, however, I've seen more reports of people having the same problems when using Nix or whatever other home mixed solution they found online.

It's a poison at the end of the day. There is always going to be a risk of problems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Cool - got any links?

I have definitely heard of animals suffering and dying - I think I remember something about hognoses having a lower tolerance?

I could be totally wrong about that though.

I also know, however, I've seen more reports of people having the same problems when using Nix or whatever other home mixed solution they found online.

It's a poison at the end of the day. There is always going to be a risk of problems.

---

They're all poisons, that's sorta the point.

A long time ago somebody posted a YouTube video of a kingsnake and that the owner used NIX on. It gave it neurological issues and then it died.

She diluted it but I guess not enough.

The Mojave male that I treated last night seems ok so far. Found 8 black dots on it just now so far and he is soaking in water just to get Em off. I then changed the paper towel, gave it a light spray and put him back in. Seems fine so far and I'm happy it's working. Hopefully the weather or 2 goes by quick and in can put him in the rack.

i got a good laugh out of how the material was presented http://ball-pythons.net/forums/image...VEo1JJFC6bQQA7


the aliens theme >


excellent posthttp://ball-pythons.net/forums/image...WmL69qHRgQADs=

I made a profile just to say thanks and to let everyone know in my case it worked great! I bought my little fella from someone who had no idea how to care for a snake. He came to me with a bad case of mites and a slight RI. I didn't follow these instructions though (I was given another link with only nix mix instructions) and I used the nix to treat the tank and my Bp. I have used it 2 times so far, once a week and tomorrow will be his last treatment. I haven't seen any live mites since first treatment and after I seen TONS of dead mites on the substrate. He wouldn't eat when I first got him and yesterday he just ate his 2nd rat pup. He's doing great and no problems so far.


*also wanted to add- my first choice was reptile relief but after 3 days of searching every store within an hour radius of my house everywhere was sold out or didn't carry it and I didn't want to buy online and have to wait for it to come in the mail so a local breeder sent me the link to a nix treatment*