BCC Columbian RTB

So my breeder I got my RTB from said that she is a true BCC Columbian and I'm not entirely sure the differences between the BCC's, BCI's and the different Locales etc.

Here's some pictures and I'll let you guys know what you think...

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-170.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-171.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-173.jpg

I'll get some better pics soon.

Btw this is my first baby girl boa :)

A picture of her tail would help a lot. Usually the BCCs have really red tails. It would be the first indicator I would look for. From your pictures it doesn't look like it, but they could also be washed out by the flash.

Considering colombians are BCIs I would feel its safe to say you have a bci. Your snake doesn't look like any BCC locale to me. Did the breeder mean its a bci/bcc cross?

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

Considering colombians are BCIs I would feel its safe to say you have a bci. Your snake doesn't look like any BCC locale to me. Did the breeder mean its a bci/bcc cross?

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I agree. From the picture as far as I can see, this animal looks like a normal Colombian BCI. If it was sold to you as a BCC, I would like to know who the breeder is and see a better picture of the tail and a clearer pic of the body including the head.

I'm not saying this ISN'T a BCC, but based on these pictures it does not look like one. And knowing who the breeder is would help us too - there are a lot of good breeders out there and if your snake's breeder is one with a well-known and good reputation, we can tell you that you can trust what he says.



But I can say that you do NOT have a "true BCC Colombian". There is no such thing. Red Tail Boas are classified as follows:

The following was originally posted by fellow BP.netter, Vypyrz...

Boa Constrictor Constrictor (BCC)- These are the "true red tails." These are generally the largest in size and maintain their red tails into adulthood. The tail will normally have a distinct red color that ranges from bright red to a deeper, more blood red color. They come from:
Peru
Brazil
Venezuela
Suriname
Guyana

Boa Constrictor Imperator (BCI)- This is the largest group of boa constrictors. Their tail color normally ranges from a darker, more subdued red to a more common brown color. They include the boas from Central America:
Colombia
Panama
Costa Rica
Nicaraqua
Mexico: Tamaulipas, Tarahumara
and the insular islands:
Hogg Island
Caulker Cay
Crawl Cay
Corn Island

Boa Constrictor Amarali (BCA)- Bolivian boa constrictors

Boa Constrictor Longicauda (BCL)- These come from the Tumbes region of Peru. They are also known as the Peruvian Long-tail Boa, as they have a higher scale count from their vent to tail tip, than the Peruvian BCC.

Boa Constrictor Occidentalis (BCO)- Argentine boa constrictors.

Boa Constrictor Sabogae (BCS)- Pearl Island boa constrictors

As well as, some of the lesser known sub-species:

Boa Constrictor Nebulosa- Dominican Republic, Lesser Antilles
Boa Constrictor Orophias- St. Lucia
Boa Constrictor Melanogaster- Ecuador Black Belly

It is best to research each of these, as they have different sizes, colorings, and growth rates. Here are a few websites to help you get started, where the different sub-species of Boa Constrictor are discussed and described:

http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/com.html

http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/contactinformation/

http://www.riobravoreptiles.com/index.htm

Physical Differences:

-Saddle Shape: Generally the BCI saddles will have a rounder appearance, looking something like this: ( ) ( ) ( ), whereas the BCC saddles generally have an apex in the saddles, much like this: } { } { } { } . While this is a good marker, it is not always reliable.

-Head Shape: The head shape between BCC and BCI may be hard to detect in neonates, but from about 1 year in age, the differences become more apparent. The BCC generally have less pronounced jaw muscles, giving the head a more slender, longer, or uniformly tapered appearance, with a more pointed shaped nose. Also, the size of the head will appear larger in relation to the size of the body in the neck area. The BCI generally has more pronounced jaw muscles and a more blunt or broader looking nose, giving the head a shorter appearance. Also the BCI head will appear smaller in relation to the size of the body in the neck area.

-Scale Count: Scale count is another indicator of Boa type, however, since a lot of the numbers overlap, it should not be relied on solely. Scale count + Head shape is the most accurate method of determining the type of Boa that you have. If you are looking for a specific locale of BCC or BCI, the easiest way to ensure that you are getting what you want is to buy from a reputable breeder who will guarantee the genetics.

Wow lots of info here thank you all!

Basically what I asked is if it was the largest species of RTB. He said it was, and I asked if it was a Columbian, and also if it was a BCC or BCI. He said it was a common RTB which is a Columbian with BCC. So since I'm new to boas I guess I assume that BCC and Columbian is the same but apparently not possible?

I'm gonna go take some very specific pictures of the head, tail, vent, and markings...

Be right back ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

Wow lots of info here thank you all!

Basically what I asked is if it was the largest species of RTB. He said it was, and I asked if it was a Columbian, and also if it was a BCC or BCI. He said it was a common RTB which is a Columbian with BCC. So since I'm new to boas I guess I assume that BCC and Columbian is the same but apparently not possible?

I'm gonna go take some very specific pictures of the head, tail, vent, and markings...

Be right back ;)

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If the snake is a Colombian it is not the largest species of boa constrictor. Colombians can get big, but not as big as the BCO and BCC boas.

If he said it was a common Colombian boa "with" BCC then perhaps this snake is a cross and therefore not pure.

BCC is not a Colombian = Colombians are not BCCs.

BCC boas would be Peruvians, Surinames, Guyanas, etc (some examples)

BCI boas would be Colombians, Central Americans, Hog Islands, Mexican dwarf boas, and other island boas (some examples)

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-174.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-175.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-176.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-177.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-178.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-179.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-180.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-181.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-182.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/...2/null-183.jpg

Hope these help!

So anymore ideas?


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0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

Doesn't look like any BCC locale I've seen. I'd say normal BCI

- - - Updated - - -

Doesn't look like any BCC locale I've seen. I'd say normal BCI

+2 for Normal BCI

Thank you guys very much. Just so I know for future purchases and just for my own personal education what did you look at to make your determination?

Basically what can I look for to know what I have?

And even tho it's a BCI, is it still considered a red tail boa? Or is it known as something completely different? Is it a Columbian BCI and not a RTB?

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0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

Thank you guys very much. Just so I know for future purchases and just for my own personal education what did you look at to make your determination?

Basically what can I look for to know what I have?

And even tho it's a BCI, is it still considered a red tail boa? Or is it known as something completely different? Is it a Columbian BCI and not a RTB?

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0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

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The saddle shape (most -but not all- BCC boas will have peaked saddles that look kind of like this: {}), the tail isn't the deep red seen on many BCC boa babies, and overall head shape and facial markings. For reference, here's a pic of some baby BCC Suri boas (pic at bottom): http://www.riobravoreptiles.com/boas_suriname.htm

BTW Rio Bravo has wonderful info on many boa locales, I'd look through Gus's website.

Colombian BCIs are still considered "red tailed boas" by many (and they're referenced as red tails in pet stores) but personally I don't call my Colombians, Hog, or Argentines "red tail boas" because the "true red tails" are the BCC boas.

Thank you for all the information. So basically I have a BCI Columbian, if that's what the experts have determined lol.

If that is in fact what she is, how big can I look forward to her getting? Is the realm of 9-10ft out of the question? 40-50lbs? Or are we looking at a smaller snake?

And thank you all again for the education on Boas that I didn't have before! :)


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0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

Thank you for all the information. So basically I have a BCI Columbian, if that's what the experts have determined lol.

If that is in fact what she is, how big can I look forward to her getting? Is the realm of 9-10ft out of the question? 40-50lbs? Or are we looking at a smaller snake?

And thank you all again for the education on Boas that I didn't have before! :)


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0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

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I would say it's safe to say she's a Colombian BCI: you could ask the breeder what the pairing was to determine if she has BCC blood in her but I personally don't see much BCC influence.

Colombians on the norm get smaller than the BCC boas, so I would say she should get between 6-8' as a female. There are larger girls out there, but most top out around that size range. If she has any BCC blood in her she could get on the larger side of the norm. Can't help much with average weight.

I recommend you to need at least a 6' cage when she's full grown.

Here's a picture from the breeder of a new baby Suriname B.C.C that I am picking up next week. You can clearly see the difference between the B.C.I you picked up and a true B.C.C.
http://emob1078.photobucket.com/albu...ps983ea58f.jpg

Defiantly a B.C.I in my opinion. A nice one though. Congrats and enjoy. Boas are awesome. I'm sure it won't be your last. ;)

I'm guessing that the BCI tho are less desirable than the BCC?

And on a side note, yes she will have a very appropriate sized enclosure ;)


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0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

I'm guessing that the BCI tho are less desirable than the BCC?

And on a side note, yes she will have a very appropriate sized enclosure ;)


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Very good :)

As for BCIs being less desirable I would say it's all personal preference and who you ask. BCCs usually fetch a higher price tag than a normal Colombian, but there are many Colombian morphs out there that are desirable and expensive (expensive not meaning they're any "better" than any other boa IMO).

I hope to add a BCC to my collection one day but that doesn't mean I'm not happy/impressed with the BCIs and BCOs in my collection right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

Very good :)

As for BCIs being less desirable I would say it's all personal preference and who you ask. BCCs usually fetch a higher price tag than a normal Colombian, but there are many Colombian morphs out there that are desirable and expensive (expensive not meaning they're any "better" than any other boa IMO).

I hope to add a BCC to my collection one day but that doesn't mean I'm not happy/impressed with the BCIs and BCOs in my collection right now.

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I would agree that Beaty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally think that BCO is one of the coolest boas there is. They are so dark and they get huge. :) normal BCI's are more common in the pet trade than the other boas. But they also have almost all the morphs. Other than the one BCO morph and the rumor of albino BCC they are all BCI. So the sky's the limit with BCI. I love all my boas. Don't think I could pick a true favorite.

I totally agree with everything you've been told by Daybreaker and Jason....

You have a normal Colombian BCI, not a BCC (although it is possible your snake has some BCC blood in its "pedigree" somewhere, but without documentation of that from her breeder, there is no way to know for sure). But judging from looks alone, I'd say there is no BCC influence and your snake is 100% BCI.

BCI are not generally referred as red tails - at least not by those with experience. The true Red Tail Boas are BCCs.

BCI are in no way any less desirable than BCC. Mostly its a matter of preference, and there are some that always prefer pure locality BCC over BCI, but there are also those that strongly prefer BCI as well. The BCC are a little harder to find in the trade so they tend to fetch a higher price tag, but that doesn't make them more desirable.

A female BCI will reach about 7-8 feet and around 30lbs. Smaller or larger is not to be unexpected though.

Enjoy your baby - boas are amazing animals! :gj:

Thank you all again.

She ate her first meal today which made me very excited. Hits "more accurately" and "more confidently" than the BPs it seems.

She weighed in at 70g's before feeding and I will have her on a 5 day schedule with my ball until she needs less frequent feelings.

I really wanted a big snake(why I got a boa instead of another ball) and I just hope she's big enough lol. I'm not ready, nor is our family ready, for a big burm, retic or conda, so she was gonna fill that size gap...

He really is an intriguing creature, and so different from the BP's I'm more accustomed to.

She def seems more "friendly" and most certainly not head shy in the slightest like my BP.

On a side note, I waked in the house today and saw my wifey holding her all on her own(normally terrified of snakes and very resilient to hold my BP) but she made me so proud lol.


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0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

First off CONGRATS on your new snake. Being happy with your animal is all that matters. Colombian, not "Columbian" boas are 99.9% of the time BCI. I believe Vin Russo and Gus Rentfro have only seen the BCC version of the Colombian boa. Neither has one in their collection and they are about as "Boa knowledgable" as it gets. There are however different opinions about BCC and BCI as well. Jeff Ronne, a respected breeder says they are BCC and so does Herpetologist Mark O'shea.

But I don't want to confuse things. The majority will agree that Colombian boas or "common boas" are BCI.

Female BCI boas can get huge, but 8-9 feet is a big boa for a Colombian BCI.

There are some 7 foot 30 pound male BCI's I've seen. Tom McCarthy's male Squeezer was a huge male BCI. (McCarthy Boas).

According to Gus Rentfro, the Peruvian BCC is one of the biggest of the boas. Also BCC from Surinam and Guyana. They grow slower but tend to get bigger on average. Gus Rentfro also states "The biggest boas are the oldest boas". So if you let your boa grow slow, it will live long and get big.

Here is my Colombian BCI male. http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/y...a/DSC00372.jpg

I don't claim to have anything rare or overly special. Gus Rentfro of Rio Bravo Reptiles breeds these and sells them every year but,,,, this boa is a true locality Colombian boa from the Barranquilla region of the country.

His friend, Vincent Russo, wrote about boas from this area and stated these boas are what a "natural cross" between BCC and BCI would look like. He did scale counts on them and apparently they differ from BCI boas.

Again, there is not a need to get really technical unless we are counting scales and getting deep into herpetology.

Your Female BCI will more than likely get to at least 7 feet. Don't be in a rush to get her there though.

Kali and the others have pretty much already stated what I've gone over here. "True Red Tail" = BCC. Red tail boa is more of a pet trade name that is used loosely and it can apply to all boas in that context with a few exceptions.

BCI's are very good snakes and they feed and breed in captivity second to none. Probably the hardiest of the BCC boas are the Peruvians. That's from Gus Rentfro so I believe it.

This is a good video explaining some basic differences. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzp48...=TL138GtRj8DS4

Pardon the long winded explanation especially since the others here with more boas than I have covered this.

I just like to help : )

You have a great pet BCI and it will get nice and big. Enjoy!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

Thank you all again.

She ate her first meal today which made me very excited. Hits "more accurately" and "more confidently" than the BPs it seems.

She weighed in at 70g's before feeding and I will have her on a 5 day schedule with my ball until she needs less frequent feelings.

I really wanted a big snake(why I got a boa instead of another ball) and I just hope she's big enough lol. I'm not ready, nor is our family ready, for a big burm, retic or conda, so she was gonna fill that size gap...

He really is an intriguing creature, and so different from the BP's I'm more accustomed to.

She def seems more "friendly" and most certainly not head shy in the slightest like my BP.

On a side note, I waked in the house today and saw my wifey holding her all on her own(normally terrified of snakes and very resilient to hold my BP) but she made me so proud lol.


0.1.0 Normal Ball Python
0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

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Don't worry - your BCI will be a perfect snake to fill this gap. The females especially are very impressive serpents....

But as Gio stated, don't be in a rush to get her there. Feed very slowly and stick to smaller prey items. Boas have a slower metabolism than Ball Pythons do and they do better and are healthier if fed less frequently and smaller items. Most good breeders feed even neonates only once every 7-10 days. Your baby will get as big as nature intends for her and if you raise her slowly she'll be much better off for it. :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

Don't worry - your BCI will be a perfect snake to fill this gap. The females especially are very impressive serpents....

But as Gio stated, don't be in a rush to get her there. Feed very slowly and stick to smaller prey items. Boas have a slower metabolism than Ball Pythons do and they do better and are healthier if fed less frequently and smaller items. Most good breeders feed even neonates only once every 7-10 days. Your baby will get as big as nature intends for her and if you raise her slowly she'll be much better off for it. :gj:

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So would a 5 day schedule be too frequent for my ball and boa? Should I go to a 7 or is there a prob for either snake being on a 5? I want her to grow more healthy than fast, but as fast as can be done healthy, if that makes sense lol.


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0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

Stick to 7 days til she's about 2 years old, increasing prey size accordingly as she grows. The prey item should be 10-15% of the snake's empty weight (weigh her after she poops). I generally go to a 2 week feeding schedule at around 2 years of age, and 3 weeks once they are eating jumbo rats.

My BP was on a 7 day schedule until he started eating medium rats. He's on a 2 week schedule from here on out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

So would a 5 day schedule be too frequent for my ball and boa? Should I go to a 7 or is there a prob for either snake being on a 5? I want her to grow more healthy than fast, but as fast as can be done healthy, if that makes sense lol.


0.1.0 Normal Ball Python
0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

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I don't know how old your BP is, but usually people end up on 7-10 day schedules for adults, or sometimes even longer. As for your boa, 7-10 day starting schedule is just fine for now. I know that people say for BP's to feed them something that is about the same size around as their thickest midsection; don't follow that for your boa. The prey you feed her shouldn't leave any noticeable lump in her body. If you do feed something that's a little bigger every once in a while, don't worry. It's just not something that should be happening every feeding. :) Eventually you'll need to move her to a 2 week schedule (or even longer as she gets older; my girl eats every 3 weeks now) but that won't be for a little while. Like Evenstar said, slow-grown is best. :)

Don't worry about not having a big snake (in comparison to your BP); even a BCI will be a BIG difference from your Ball. Not only do they grow to a size of 6-8ft on average, but their attitude is a complete 180 from Balls. My BCI (in my picture) is outgoing, exploratory, and likes being out and held. She's even been used for educational presentations. BCI's are great transitional snakes into the big boids, imo. :gj:

Awesome. See I know fish, inside and out. I've successfully performed surgery on my fish, diagnosed and treated disease, developed husbandry techniques that were far from the norm, with amazing repeatable results, been flamed for it, etc. Bottom line is I knew what was up with fish, and even have a potential captive world record for size of a particular species that doesn't often do well in captivity...

Snakes, ya I'm learning snakes lol. But you guys are teaching me ;)


0.1.0 Normal Ball Python
0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

Awesome. See I know fish, inside and out. I've successfully performed surgery on my fish, diagnosed and treated disease, developed husbandry techniques that were far from the norm, with amazing repeatable results, been flamed for it, etc. Bottom line is I knew what was up with fish, and even have a potential captive world record for size of a particular species that doesn't often do well in captivity...

Snakes, ya I'm learning snakes lol. But you guys are teaching me ;)


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It won't be long until you are schooled up. I think you have that knack learning all you need about your pets. It's a very good quality.

Enjoy!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

So would a 5 day schedule be too frequent for my ball and boa? Should I go to a 7 or is there a prob for either snake being on a 5? I want her to grow more healthy than fast, but as fast as can be done healthy, if that makes sense lol.


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I don't know how old your ball is, but if it's a hatchling, then every 5 days would be fine - for the Ball Python. But if it's an adult, you should stick to every 7-10 days. I feel my adult ball pythons every 2 weeks.

Every 5 days is far too frequent for baby boas. As I said before, breeders will feed even neonates (just-born babies) every 7-10 days. There is no way to feed so she'll grow "as fast as can be done healthy". Forget that idea. The more slowly your baby grows, the healthier she'll be. Boas naturally grow fast. You'll be surprised at how fast. In 2-3 years, she's gonna be quite impressive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

Awesome. See I know fish, inside and out. I've successfully performed surgery on my fish, diagnosed and treated disease, developed husbandry techniques that were far from the norm, with amazing repeatable results, been flamed for it, etc. Bottom line is I knew what was up with fish, and even have a potential captive world record for size of a particular species that doesn't often do well in captivity...

Snakes, ya I'm learning snakes lol. But you guys are teaching me ;)


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0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

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You will never know too much and will always be learning! We are all still learning! Ask away! :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

I don't know how old your ball is, but if it's a hatchling, then every 5 days would be fine - for the Ball Python. But if it's an adult, you should stick to every 7-10 days. I feel my adult ball pythons every 2 weeks.

Every 5 days is far too frequent for baby boas. As I said before, breeders will feed even neonates (just-born babies) every 7-10 days. There is no way to feed so she'll grow "as fast as can be done healthy". Forget that idea. The more slowly your baby grows, the healthier she'll be. Boas naturally grow fast. You'll be surprised at how fast. In 2-3 years, she's gonna be quite impressive.





You will never know too much and will always be learning! We are all still learning! Ask away! :gj:

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My ball is estimated to be around 9 weeks old and is 113g pre feeding last feed. Your guess is as good as mine but 3 weeks ago a local breeder guessed she was about 6 weeks old, and was within a few grams of one of his 6wk old babies...

Well it sounds like I will be changing the feeding schedule a little bit.

Thank you


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0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

My ball is estimated to be around 9 weeks old and is 113g pre feeding last feed. Your guess is as good as mine but 3 weeks ago a local breeder guessed she was about 6 weeks old, and was within a few grams of one of his 6wk old babies...

Well it sounds like I will be changing the feeding schedule a little bit.

Thank you


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0.1.0 Red Tail Boa

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So your ball, at 9-ish weeks old, could do fine on a 5-7 day feeding cycle. The boa should be on a 7-10 day cycle. If you want to feed them at the same time, I'd feed them both once a week. Just keep the boa's prey item on the small side (something that does NOT leave a noticeable lump in the belly) and give the ball something a touch bigger (something that DOES leave a small lump in the belly). There ya go - perfect. :gj: