Unexpected death: RIP Vera (necropsy?)

Well, tonight is a sad night. I went to feed two of my colubrids and found my snow corn female Vera passed away. It's totally unexpected and I'm at a loss for words really. I got her at the Phx Expo in November '11 at 33 grams: she would have been three years old this month on the 22nd.

I did notice though just two days ago her slowly opening and closing her mouth though: I've never seen her or any other one of my snakes do this before and knew it wasn't normal. I believe this may have had something to do with her passing: but at the time I thought it just a weird quirk.

I have her in the fridge and I believe she's been gone for under 24 hrs as only her top 1/4 was stiff (head and part of her neck): the rest of her body was still soft. I don't believe it's too late for a necropsy: I'll be calling my vet tomorrow.

I just don't know what happened and am worried about the others in my snake room. She was fed the same feeders that I've been feeding my other colubrids and balls: none are acting differently. She didn't have any odd lumps, coloring, or otherwise on her body: her mouth was open though and under her was some bloody substance that came from her mouth (like she coughed it up).

I'm just upset and crying, I hate this part of owning pets. It never gets easier: have it be a reptile or mammal.

Thanks for reading,
Angelica



When I first brought her home:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...11Veracurl.jpg

Last pic taken back in May:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...psbee1464d.jpg

**hugs** She was so beautiful. I'm really sorry for your loss. :(

A young corn passing out of the blue like that is troubling. Sorry for your loss.

Sorry for your loss Angelica. It is never easy saying goodbye to a member of the family.

Oh no. She was a beautiful little thing. Sorry for your loss :(

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I am so sorry :( Several months ago I suddenly lost my western hognose and I know how hard it is. She was gorgeous by the way. Please let us know what the vet says :(.

I am sorry for your loss. She was a beautiful snake.

I am so sorry for your loss. :( Please do keep us posted what the necropsy results are. I hope your other babies are all ok.

Sorry to hear that angelica, let us know what the necropsy says. This sounds bizarre...

She was a beautiful animal. So sorry for your loss. I hope the others will be okay and that you can get a necropsy done to get some answers. -hugs-

I am soo sorry to hear that. Soo young too. She was a beautiful snake. I hope you get some answers in her necropsy so you can at least have some type of closure.

I am so sorry for your loss :(

Very sorry for your loss! It's amazing how an animal can become so close to you. Hang in there

Thank you everyone for your support, it really means a lot.

After contacting my local vet and finding him out of town for a week and no one else being able/knowledgeable enough to see her up here, I will be driving two hours down to Phoenix to see a trusted exotic vet here shortly who will do the necro later today.

I will update this evening with results.

I'm sorry. :( (hugs)

Well, got some news and will be waiting on others:

Necropsy found that her heart was enlarged and she had hemorrhaging around it, also that her lungs looked abnormal. He said this could account for her odd breathing/mouth movements I saw on Saturday.

He couldn't say for sure if this was caused by a illness/virus or if this was a case of her just not being well (ie like when seemingly healthy twenty years olds die abruptly due to a brain hemorrhage) so I opted for a full histopathology on her tissues/organs: this will help determine if she has something that may put my other snakes in jeopardy. I won't know these results for 10-14 days.

What surprised me is that after examining her he considered her obese and mentioned by feeding regime could be switched around for healthier snakes. It was truly eye opening as I've fed my colubrids the same as many other people do and after what I've read many times over and I didn't have the slightest idea that she was so overweight. He mentioned that a 7 day schedule is too much for an adult corn and I should scale back to 10-14 days, and also feeding leaner/younger mice instead of the larger fattier ones will be overall healthier for the snake (which makes sense). I will be re-evaluating my feeding schedules/habits with my snakes after this. He didn't think her being obese had anything to do with her passing.

Thank you for the update. Sounds like maybe it was just something congenital. I am so sorry but at least now you have some answers. Like I had to tell myself with my hognose; sometimes these things happen. Vera was a good snake and you gave her a great, loving home.

Obese? Wow....why did the vet think that? Did she have a lot of fatty tissue? Im just curious.....dont want to upset you.

sent from my incubator

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Obese? Wow....why did the vet think that? Did she have a lot of fatty tissue? Im just curious.....dont want to upset you.

sent from my incubator

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x2... Did he give any more of an explanation on that?

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Originally Posted by elbee

Thank you for the update. Sounds like maybe it was just something congenital. I am so sorry but at least now you have some answers. Like I had to tell myself with my hognose; sometimes these things happen. Vera was a good snake and you gave her a great, loving home.

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Thank you, for the sake of my other snakes I'm hoping it was congenital but of course I wouldn't wish anything ill of any of my snakes or others'. It's just sad thing that happened.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Obese? Wow....why did the vet think that? Did she have a lot of fatty tissue? Im just curious.....dont want to upset you.

sent from my incubator

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

x2... Did he give any more of an explanation on that?

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The fatty tissue and he explained that when he checked her exterior instead of having the healthy body shape of a slight triangle or circular she was actually shaped like what I would call an apple (ie fat actually bulging out from her spine, if that makes sense)? I feel bad that I've never noticed her shaped like this before (she always looked and felt circular to me) and tomorrow I'll be looking everyone over to see if they're showing this body shape. If any are (I'll be looking especially close at my adult King who's been on the same feeding schedule as Vera) I'll take some pics and they'll be going on a diet.

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

The fatty tissue and he explained that when he checked her exterior instead of having the healthy body shape of a slight triangle or circular she was actually shaped like what I would call an apple (ie fat actually bulging out from her spine, if that makes sense)? I feel bad that I've never noticed her shaped like this before (she always looked and felt circular to me) and tomorrow I'll be looking everyone over to see if they're showing this body shape. If any are (I'll be looking especially close at my adult King who's been on the same feeding schedule as Vera) I'll take some pics and they'll be going on a diet.

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Thank you for sharing this. I too keep several corns and I usually feed on a 7-day schedule. I've always been under the notion that you feed weekly until they are about 300g and then breeding females are continued on this schedule and all others on a 10-14 day schedule. However, I will take this new information and see about modifying my feeding routine.

I'm sorry to hear this, she was a gorgeous snake and it's never easy. Glad you're getting some answers, very curious about the final report, I really hope it's nothing worrisome for the rest. Now you have me wondering if I may be overfeeding my corn?

If you don't mind, what vet did you go through? I always like to know the good ones around me.

I wonder if this will cause any breeders to rethink their 'get my female up to breeding weight as soon as possible' mentality. If it could potentially lower the life expectancy of the snake and thus reduce the number of clutches a breeder could have, I am sure it would impact profits.

Thanks for sharing the necropsy findings. It has me thinking of slowing down my feeding schedule. Just because a snake takes an offered meal doesn't mean it necessarily needs said meal I guess. Time to do a little research methinks.

Thank you for the support guys.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

I'm sorry to hear this, she was a gorgeous snake and it's never easy. Glad you're getting some answers, very curious about the final report, I really hope it's nothing worrisome for the rest. Now you have me wondering if I may be overfeeding my corn?

If you don't mind, what vet did you go through? I always like to know the good ones around me.

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I've always read that the norm was every 7 days (hence what I've been doing), but I will sure be doing the 10-14 day schedule now for my older colubrids and bull snake.

I went to see Dr. Johnson of Exotic Animal Hospital in Mesa. I highly recommend him: maybe in a way it was a good thing that my local vet was out as he isn't as knowledgeable with snakes as Dr. Johnson. I haven't shared this yet as I've been monitoring her but I took my other corn snake female (one I got as an adult) to him for surgery a couple months back (which was a success): long story short she had to be spayed because she became egg bound after been paired a full two years previous with the previous owner. If anyone is interested I can write up some info on this and post it in the corn section.

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Originally Posted by Kensa

I wonder if this will cause any breeders to rethink their 'get my female up to breeding weight as soon as possible' mentality. If it could potentially lower the life expectancy of the snake and thus reduce the number of clutches a breeder could have, I am sure it would impact profits.

Thanks for sharing the necropsy findings. It has me thinking of slowing down my feeding schedule. Just because a snake takes an offered meal doesn't mean it necessarily needs said meal I guess. Time to do a little research methinks.

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I would hope most know that feeding too much too frequently is harmful to the snake's health and life span, but that's why I was so shocked to hear about her weight since I was feeding the same as what I've read many times over. Vera was never to be a breeder: she was a pet and fed accordingly (or so I thought) and never got spoiled with seconds or fed sooner than her 7 days.

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

I went to see Dr. Johnson of Exotic Animal Hospital in Mesa. I highly recommend him: maybe in a way it was a good thing that my local vet was out as he isn't as knowledgeable with snakes as Dr. Johnson. I haven't shared this yet as I've been monitoring her but I took my other corn snake female (one I got as an adult) to him for surgery a couple months back (which was a success): long story short she had to be spayed because she became egg bound after been paired a full two years previous with the previous owner. If anyone is interested I can write up some info on this and post it in the corn section.

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Thanks, good to know as many good vets as one can.

I would be interested in that thread, outta always good to learn about medical issues and experiences.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

Thanks, good to know as many good vets as one can.

I would be interested in that thread, outta always good to learn about medical issues and experiences.

Sent from microwave via Tapatalk ll

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When I get home from work I can do a write up on it: it was a very (stressful) but interesting experience.

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

When I get home from work I can do a write up on it: it was a very (stressful) but interesting experience.

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I too would like to read it. I'll be breeding one of my corns in March and I would love to read this perspective on problems when breeding.

I got the results on her tissues today:

Looks like she had no virus or the like that could jeopardize my other snakes, so that's good. It did show that she did have an intestinal infection and pneumonia. They were unable to tell what came first (they believe she probably got an intestinal infection that then in turn made her come down with the pneumonia that then affected her heart). The pneumonia could in turn be the reason why I saw her open mouth breathing near the end. They are unsure how these infections came about so it may have been one of those unfortunate things that happened: I will be keeping an eye on my others though for a good while. Everyone else still isn't showing any signs of illness.

Weird... I hope everyone else stays healthy! :)

I'm really glad to hear it's nothing you need to worry about your others over. It's scary that they can be sick and never show any signs.

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I think I am having this EXACT same problem!!!! What do I do??! I'm panicking!

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Originally Posted by valhalha30

I think I am having this EXACT same problem!!!! What do I do??! I'm panicking!

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Did you have a snake pass recently or what signs is it showing?

yes, and i think my other one is showing signs of it too
I took them both to the vet days ago, when the one passed, and he said there isnt any obvious signs of problems... but, I'm begining to doubt that as I read your post.

Mouth opening/closing, and my deceased one had a seizure or stroke and kept opening its mouth after it seized til it passed away

Did you notice your snakes stomache being any shade of pink or red the day you found her passed?
The doctor I went to said that is usualy a sign of it having an internal infection.. but he said my snakes didnt show any signs of that.

Would it be dark red or light?? Cause the bellies usually turn pink when they shed, right??

Did you have a necropsy done on the one that passed? Unfortunately that's the only way to know what happened and to see if you're dealing with some contagious disease/illness.

Also going to an actual exotics vet is key: is your vet an actual exotics vet or a dog/cat vet who "can" see reptiles?

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Originally Posted by valhalha30

Did you notice your snakes stomache being any shade of pink or red the day you found her passed?
The doctor I went to said that is usualy a sign of it having an internal infection.. but he said my snakes didnt show any signs of that.

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No, her only "off" sign was her weird breathing the two days before she passed. Pink belly could be a sign of shedding too.

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

Would it be dark red or light?? Cause the bellies usually turn pink when they shed, right??

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unfortunately, he didn't specify, just said it would be very noticeable.



It was a cat/dog/reptile vet.

For all I know I just caught two yawns, but im paranoid

no necrospy was done. they are such unique snakes. even the doctor said that maybe because it was so unique on the outside that he was also unique on the inside... God i hope he's right.

stuipid observation, but, i've been sneezing a lot lately, not near thier tank, but, still, a sneeze is airborne..... could i have given them a sickness? I'm not sick, but my allergies are going nuts... is it possible that I made at least him sick? but if so, why aren't more of my reptiles getting sick too?

so far, i have no answer to why my snake passed, just possibilities... and i don't even know if was perhaps developmental at this point.... i am paranoid that it's viral, and that perhaps my girl contracted it, but, there isn't any signs of respritory infection (nose is clear, mouth looks normal, no raspy breathing, no blotchy red stomach, and her hisses sound loud and healthy like usual) no signs of Septicemia/intestinal infection.
BUT, I caught her with her mouth open on two seperate occasions, maybe i just witnessed yawns. With the sudden death of Bread, and no signs of any illness days prior to his death, im starting to think it was just something unique with him on the inside.... i'm keeping a constant eye on Butter, and the other snakes, but, the similarity to Vera's symptoms and Bread's are spooky. So i'm not ruling out anything just yet.

She is sexually mature, and so was he, and one week i skipped feeding (I was on vacation) and the next week Butter ate, but he didnt... and then the week after that, neither of them ate, so i just thought that it was breeding time.... then he died... but she seems ok, even the vet said so.... so idk whats going on anymore... im losing it.

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Originally Posted by valhalha30

no necrospy was done. they are such unique snakes. even the doctor said that maybe because it was so unique on the outside that he was also unique on the inside... God i hope he's right.

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I don't really understand what this means.

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Originally Posted by valhalha30

stuipid observation, but, i've been sneezing a lot lately, not near thier tank, but, still, a sneeze is airborne..... could i have given them a sickness? I'm not sick, but my allergies are going nuts... is it possible that I made at least him sick? but if so, why aren't more of my reptiles getting sick too?

so far, i have no answer to why my snake passed, just possibilities... and i don't even know if was perhaps developmental at this point.... i am paranoid that it's viral, and that perhaps my girl contracted it, but, there isn't any signs of respritory infection (nose is clear, mouth looks normal, no raspy breathing, no blotchy red stomach, and her hisses sound loud and healthy like usual) no signs of Septicemia/intestinal infection.
BUT, I caught her with her mouth open on two seperate occasions, maybe i just witnessed yawns. With the sudden death of Bread, and no signs of any illness days prior to his death, im starting to think it was just something unique with him on the inside.... i'm keeping a constant eye on Butter, and the other snakes, but, the similarity to Vera's symptoms and Bread's are spooky. So i'm not ruling out anything just yet.

She is sexually mature, and so was he, and one week i skipped feeding (I was on vacation) and the next week Butter ate, but he didnt... and then the week after that, neither of them ate, so i just thought that it was breeding time.... then he died... but she seems ok, even the vet said so.... so idk whats going on anymore... im losing it.

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I think you may need to see a different vet. Your vet doesn't seem to be able to offer you any insight: has he offered to run any tests or speak with a fellow reptile specialist as to what you guys can do? And no, I don't believe you got them sick. It could have been "one of those things" about the one that passed (like Vera) or it could potentially be more serious (ie a disease or contagious illness). Have you gotten any new snakes lately?

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

I don't really understand what this means.

They are triple hybrids, there is litreally no other snakes like them known to herping... and the vet thought perhaps because of the strange genetics (and perhaps inbreeding from a parent's parent) could have caused a internal developmental issue. I didn't get a necropsy, because I was so distraught at it's death and didn't want the vet to cut Bread up... which is probably stupid now, in retrospect...



I think you may need to see a different vet. Your vet doesn't seem to be able to offer you any insight: has he offered to run any tests or speak with a fellow reptile specialist as to what you guys can do? And no, I don't believe you got them sick. It could have been "one of those things" about the one that passed (like Vera) or it could potentially be more serious (ie a disease or contagious illness). Have you gotten any new snakes lately?

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You're probably right, but he was highly recomended by a breeder friend of mine. He told me what to look for, and showed me everything to keep an eye on using my snake as a physical example. He didn't offer any extra tests or specialist help, he seemed knowledgable... and I'm glad I didn't get them sick... I hope it's just one of those things.... and no, no new snakes... havent even been to a reptile show in a month, so I couldn't have contracted anything recently.

I have also made attempts to call a few other breeders that I know well and see if they have any insight on what could have caused his death....

I guess I should also ask, do snakes have strokes, and what do they look like?

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Originally Posted by valhalha30

You're probably right, but he was highly recomended by a breeder friend of mine. He told me what to look for, and showed me everything to keep an eye on using my snake as a physical example. He didn't offer any extra tests or specialist help, he seemed knowledgable... and I'm glad I didn't get them sick... I hope it's just one of those things.... and no, no new snakes... havent even been to a reptile show in a month, so I couldn't have contracted anything recently.

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Did the vet offer or recommend a necropsy on the one that passed? If not, then I would say for sure get another vet: this one doesn't seem to be trying to help you figure out what's going on or isn't knowledgeable enough to know how to help you. It may be one of those things but I would get another vet's opinion. A necropsy would have really told you everything you needed to know as now we can only speculate. If you have another to pass (I hope you don't) for sure get a necro done (and you store the body in the fridge, not the freezer and the faster the necro is preformed the better) :(

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

Did the vet offer or recommend a necropsy on the one that passed? If not, then I would say for sure get another vet: this one doesn't seem to be trying to help you figure out what's going on or isn't knowledgeable enough to know how to help you. It may be one of those things but I would get another vet's opinion. A necropsy would have really told you everything you needed to know as now we can only speculate. If you have another to pass (I hope you don't) for sure get a necro done (and you store the body in the fridge, not the freezer and the faster the necro is preformed the better) :(

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he did, and I declined.. like a dumbarsse.. he was really booked that day and probably had a lot on his plate, but still, I agree that he should of tried to help me more... but if he found nothing wrong, and I confirmed that they behaved and looked normal, then i supposed he assumed there was nothing more to do..... not thinking this could possibly be viral.... I just accussed Bread's unusual genetics for his death, especially since Butter shows no signs of sickness... she just wont eat, probably more to do with the stress of being to the vet and having her tank cleaned, her brother passing, and my frequent handlings to check her out..... I hope no one else passes, but if they do, I'll be wiser and get the necropsy done. Another dumb question, but, does that cost anything? Not that I'm concerned with money when we're talking about my snakes' health, but, I am curious..

and about snakes and strokes? what do they do/behave like? is it similar to how a human strokes out?

Yea, necropsy definitely costs, and it's not cheap. I had a ball necropsied and it was around $450 if I remember correctly.

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Wow... well, I should've gotten him necro-ed.... but, I didn't want him to be all cut up and stuff.. even if it were the best decision, I couldn't bear to see him like that.... it would just really throw me off the wall after having him pass, you know?

Oh also, as to the experiance and knowledge of the vet I went to... after talking to other local herpers who use him, I found out that he is the vet to the local city zoo's reptiles (and we have a good track record of having healthy, long living reptiles) and a few other zoos in other states... and he is highly respected, and I've been told umpteen times from my friends and local breeders that he knows what he's doing... so, I've been reassured that I was in good hands, and that if he thought there was no issues with either snake, then there is a high percentage chance he is correct.
It's been about 2 weeks since Bread passed, and his sister is looking and acting normal........ considering how different Bread was to his clutch-mates, his breeder and I talked and thought perhaps he was just developmentaly flawed... he was a newspaper color instead of gold, like the rest of his clutch... and he was hyper-active since hatching.... unlike his clutch..... considering they're all hybrids, who knows what kind of genes and traits were doing what in his body. His breeder told me that he had a few snakes in the past that had stokes and died, so he said that could be a possibilty too..... he said that if my other snakes are fine, especially Bread's sister, than it most likely is a isolated case and it was indeed, just "one of those things"....... as much as it sucks to lose not only one of my favorite snakes, I at least have a better idea on diseases, infections, and developmental ailments due to research, and by what members of this forum said.
Still, nothing can replace an adored member of the family.... :(

Sorry for the loss:(