Eucalyptus steam for RI

I have mastered and sucessfully healed 10 animals with this technique(mine from a bad purchase and doctoring for a buddy) wanted to see if anyone else has tried and has been successful as I have with this technique

NoonE has tried this?

I would not, personally. Eucalyptus globulus oil is a phenolic. It contains phenols in the extracted oil. Phenols are highly reactive for reptiles you may introduce other long term effects associated with phenols. It may kill the bacteria associated with RI but damage the liver and lungs in the process opening the door for re-occurance.

I would avoid any, and all, products that have OL at the end of the name, lysOL, eucalyptOL (eucalyptus oil), cineOL, (eucalypus product also found in oils) thymOL (mouth washes and cleaners), and phenOL (carbolic acid). To name a few.

I do know Eucalyptus is toxic to cats, dogs, and horses.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I would not, personally. Eucalyptus globulus oil is a phenolic. It contains phenols in the extracted oil. Phenols are highly reactive for reptiles you may introduce other long term effects associated with phenols. It may kill the bacteria associated with RI but damage the liver and lungs in the process opening the door for re-occurance.

I would avoid any, and all, products that have OL at the end of the name, lysOL, eucalyptOL (eucalyptus oil), cineOL, (eucalypus product also found in oils) thymOL (mouth washes and cleaners), and phenOL (carbolic acid). To name a few.

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Question: would that mean when people say to use mouthwash to get snakes to unwrap you would it be potentially harmful to them?

I can assure everyone here that this is a safe method. I rescued a BCI that was underweight and had a very severe case of RI. I found a really respected vet to take him to. The vet put him on Batryl. The vet told me to use vicks vapor rub and eucalyptus oil if the batryl did not work. The batryl did not work so I started the at home treatment. After 2 treatments and the injections I took him back to the vet because I thought I was still seeing symptoms of RI. The vet told me that the boa was 100% healthy and that there was no sign of RI anymore. However he has 2 of the symptoms of RI but he does not have the infection anymore. All you need is 2 storage containers, boiling water, 1tsp of vicks, and 6 drops of eucalyptus oil. The magic cure. However a snake should still be going to the vet to be checked FIRST.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Question: would that mean when people say to use mouthwash to get snakes to unwrap you would it be potentially harmful to them?

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I would not expect so, not unless it was common occurrence. It is not a lot of thymol in mouthwash and a single one time would be unlikely to be harmful. It is damage over a period of time. I would wonder if alcohol alone would do the same? I have never needed no resort to such a method know on wood I will not need to. I have seen a big retic bite (38 stitches) and can imagine what a feeding bite would be, the snake has got to release.

There are some whom believe mouthwash as a disinfectant which is not sound practice, phenols are know to be harmful. Two, diluted it is unlikely to do anything, and three even full strength it is targeted to a specific set of bacteria that need moist wet and really warm conditions, (human mouth) unlikely to be found inside an enclosure.

I would always recommend a culture be done with RI, ALWAYS. It will allow targeted antibiotics, a vet using Batryl as a kill anything hammer is not helping. Batryl is heavily used and the growing amounts of resistance to it attests to this. It also points to the need of a culture. Most say that to do anything an antibiotic need to be administered for weeks and weeks with reptiles (24-48 hours to digest compared to 20 min for humans everything is slow), the last rescue I had that was treated, was treated every 3 days for 4 weeks. Then a new culture done to confirm it was clear. Two treatments of antibiotics is unlikely to have any effect and it is unlikely nebulizing also would have any effect. It is quite likely there was no RI and it was mis diagnosed by the vet. It is quite common. RI does not go away in a week or two. Humans with pneumonia blowing liquid from their lungs get hospitalized often for weeks. A snake who has a system moving 60 times slower is not going to recover to 100% in a week or two under any circumstances.

We ask a lot of vets. The be an expert in cats, dogs, all manor of small mammals, large mammals, a huge array of reptiles and birds. Each one being different and having its own ins and outs. A human doctor is so specialized that there are left side heart specialists and right side. How can any vet know everything about every animal? They can't the mark of a great vet is one who sees something new scratches their head and then picks up the phone to talk to an expert in that animal. This is not what many vets do they try cross over treatments, this would on ferrets so it should work on...

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Originally Posted by cmenger

I can assure everyone here that this is a safe method.

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Based on?

Your Veterinarian degree?
Years of veterinary medicine practice?
Curing 100's animals or more successfully this way?

I am curious what were the results of the cultured that your vet did before choosing the proper antibiotics? For how long did he prescribe Baytril for? What were the results of the culture after YOUR treatment which "miraculously" treated your snakes?

Over the years I have seen many so called home treatments (including this one) that people believe cure their animals however it only alleviate the symptoms sometimes giving the appearance of a healthy snakes.

This is a DO NOT try this at home thing, yes I know that some of you who are getting started and are reading this may think this is great and cheap way to get rid of a RI and will decide to try it thinking it is the "miracle cure" however you need to think and I will refer you to this http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ons-The-Basics

If someone suspects a RI they need to go to a HERP vet, get a culture and get the appropriate antibiotic prescribed.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I would always recommend a culture be done with RI, ALWAYS. It will allow targeted antibiotics, a vet using Batryl as a kill anything hammer is not helping. Batryl is heavily used and the growing amounts of resistance to it attests to this. It also points to the need of a culture. Most say that to do anything an antibiotic need to be administered for weeks and weeks with reptiles (24-48 hours to digest compared to 20 min for humans everything is slow), the last rescue I had that was treated, was treated every 3 days for 4 weeks. Then a new culture done to confirm it was clear. Two treatments of antibiotics is unlikely to have any effect and it is unlikely nebulizing also would have any effect. It is quite likely there was no RI and it was mis diagnosed by the vet. It is quite common. RI does not go away in a week or two. Humans with pneumonia blowing liquid from their lungs get hospitalized often for weeks. A snake who has a system moving 60 times slower is not going to recover to 100% in a week or two under any circumstances.

We ask a lot of vets. The be an expert in cats, dogs, all manor of small mammals, large mammals, a huge array of reptiles and birds. Each one being different and having its own ins and outs. A human doctor is so specialized that there are left side heart specialists and right side. How can any vet know everything about every animal? They can't the mark of a great vet is one who sees something new scratches their head and then picks up the phone to talk to an expert in that animal. This is not what many vets do they try cross over treatments, this would on ferrets so it should work on...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Based on?

Your Veterinarian degree?
Years of veterinary medicine practice?
Curing 100's animals or more successfully this way?

I am curious what were the results of the cultured that your vet did before choosing the proper antibiotics? For how long did he prescribe Baytril for? What were the results of the culture after YOUR treatment which "miraculously" treated your snakes?

Over the years I have seen many so called home treatments (including this one) that people believe cure their animals however it only alleviate the symptoms sometimes giving the appearance of a healthy snakes.

This is a DO NOT try this at home thing, yes I know that some of you who are getting started and are reading this may think this is great and cheap way to get rid of a RI and will decide to try it thinking it is the "miracle cure" however you need to think and I will refer you to this http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ons-The-Basics

If someone suspects a RI they need to go to a HERP vet, get a culture and get the appropriate antibiotic prescribed.

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Yes to everything but not by MY experiance. The boa had cultures done on first visit which indicated that he had RI. The boa was on batryl for exactly 4 weeks. After being tested again after the batryl the cultures still showed that he had the same degree of RI. After that I started using the at home treatment. This was the only one that the vet trusted. After 2 treatments of that and with raised temps I took him back. The cultures was done and a few other test and the boa was better. I personally don't recommend anyone to try this on a snake that they believe has RI unless told to by a vet.

OP your last post and your first post are very different. The danger of open forms are they are open anyone can read things and out of desperation try them. It is certainly bad judgment on the readers part but still we as a community must be aware of this. yours is the first time I have heard a vet suggest such a thing it has been a 'home cure thing' kicked around the internet for years.

The issue is using a known toxin to treat a health issue is a serious deal. I am exceptionally surprised a vet would ever suggest using a toxin this way as there is little data.

How much will cause long term effects?
How much is a correct dose?
What the full systemic effects of phenols are on reptiles?

All of these are unknown. In Canada a vet could very easily lose his or her licence for using a treatment that is un tested with a chemical (make no mistake in thinking essential oils are not chemicals) There are so many questions with no answers around phenols.

Most believe that the small amount of phenolic compounds in cedar wood is harmful, the even smaller amount found in pine is hotly debated.

You are suggesting using euctynol a phenol in a bottle and Vicks made from cedar leaves and carbomer. Over exposure could easily cause long term damage to lungs, liver, and skin. The method you describe is contrary to Vicks instructions on not heating it and not allowing it into the mucus membranes of the lungs and nostrils. this has all the ear marks of a home cure and none of a safe practice. I would get a new vet yours is using your animals as an experiment. personally I would report your vet to the CVMA.

You see the issue there are far to many questions with no answers. It cannot be claimed 'safe' until the full effects of phenol compounds are studied. I do not know of any studies even have been started. They are simply a big unknown and it is all guess work there are other methods that are known to work with far far less risk associated with them.

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/vi...kebytestv/201/

I like F10. There are a lot of studies done on fogging it in Europe.

It does NOT exclude the need of going to a vet!

No vet in the US will suggest fogging with F10 as it is not approved treatment yet in N. America. It is approved in Europe however. I would not say it could be used as a sole treatment but it *could* help in addition of antibiotics (proven by a culture).

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

OP your last post and your first post are very different. The danger of open forms are they are open anyone can read things and out of desperation try them. It is certainly bad judgment on the readers part but still we as a community must be aware of this. yours is the first time I have heard a vet suggest such a thing it has been a 'home cure thing' kicked around the internet for years.

The issue is using a known toxin to treat a health issue is a serious deal. I am exceptionally surprised a vet would ever suggest using a toxin this way as there is little data.

How much will cause long term effects?
How much is a correct dose?
What the full systemic effects of phenols are on reptiles?

All of these are unknown. In Canada a vet could very easily lose his or her licence for using a treatment that is un tested with a chemical (make no mistake in thinking essential oils are not chemicals) There are so many questions with no answers around phenols.

Most believe that the small amount of phenolic compounds in cedar wood is harmful, the even smaller amount found in pine is hotly debated.

You are suggesting using euctynol a phenol in a bottle and Vicks made from cedar leaves and carbomer. Over exposure could easily cause long term damage to lungs, liver, and skin. The method you describe is contrary to Vicks instructions on not heating it and not allowing it into the mucus membranes of the lungs and nostrils. this has all the ear marks of a home cure and none of a safe practice. I would get a new vet yours is using your animals as an experiment. personally I would report your vet to the CVMA.

You see the issue there are far to many questions with no answers. It cannot be claimed 'safe' until the full effects of phenol compounds are studied. I do not know of any studies even have been started. They are simply a big unknown and it is all guess work there are other methods that are known to work with far far less risk associated with them.

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I even got a second opinion with this. Batryl and some other antibiotics is still questionable. The only thing that mattered to me was to save him from death. He is doing good so far but I never want to experience that again. Im not suggesting anything but I really do think if a snake has an RI you really do need to take it to the vet. The one thing I DO suggest is to turn up the heat a few degrees if you cannot make it to a herp vet for a week or so. Minor RI's can be cured with raised heat. As for humidity that is a complicated subject because you have one person say RAISE humidity and then you have the other that says LOWER humidity. One thing ive learned for the past few years is that when it comes to talking about health issues with reptiles it can be a very touchy subject.

I am very glad your snake is healthy.

There is a lot of debate surrounding RI! Raising the ambient air temp is proven to have a beneficial effect, it bumps the immune system proven and documented. Humidity, yes there is a lot of debate, is high or low humidity better? There is no no harm in trying either it is not a drug and will not do lasting harm.

A toxin should only be used under very strict supervision of a vet. I would get a new vet if they ever suggested something that was not approved. I would question if a vet whom proscribed a folk remedy should be practicing Veterinary medicine at all. If the AVMA or CVMA ever found out they would lose their practice.

Not directing this at anyone in particular, but here's my take on RIs: I think the term "respiratory infection" gets tossed around a lot, and that causes some confusion. When someone says "my snake has a RI" what they are really saying (unless they've already had a culture done) is "my snake is showing respiratory symptoms." It's the equivalent of me telling you I'm congested. I could have a viral infection, I could have a bacterial infection, I could be allergic to something, I could have eaten too much dairy, there could be a forest fire nearby, I could be hanging around a bunch of cigarette smokers, I could have a more serious problem. It's not enough information.

If you go to a vet and the vet looks at the snake and says, "Yep, it has a RI" without doing a culture and sensitivity test, that isn't really a useful diagnosis (and you need a better vet). That's why there is so much conflicting information out there as to what works. There is no one size fits all treatment, and a lot of people just blindly try things. Sometimes they get lucky and it works. But we would be much better off if people would get cultures done, so we knew what exactly was going on and we were not just creating antibiotic resistant bugs and stressing snakes' livers with antibiotics that aren't treating the original problem.


As for phenols and anything that contains them, I would steer very, very clear. A while back, we had a few hatchlings die mysteriously, all in the same rack. We had necropsies done, to rule out anything contagious. While we were waiting for results to come back, we did some intensive cleaning. As it turns out, a box that was directly behind the rack that the hatchlings that died were in had a bunch of cedar in it. It was a box of stuff we took out of my grandparents' house after they died, and I never looked in it. I guess the cedar stuff was in there to keep bugs from eating the wool. The conclusion, from a very knowledgeable vet that specializes in reptiles, was that the cedar was the culprit. We removed the offending box and had no more issues, so I am inclined to believe that was indeed the issue. According to the vet, the phenols can actually cause organ damage, which is why the hatchlings we lost were fine for a while (the box had been behind the rack for some time before we lost the hatchlings).

I am curious, though, as far as the boa that was sick. What exactly did the culture show? Cultures don't show "RI", the diagnosis should be more specific than that: an infection with a specific bacteria (or virus). Did the vet do a sensitivity test to confirm that Baytril was the correct antibiotic?

Let me get this straight: the box containing cedar products was BEHIND your rack, and caused that much damage!?!? That's terrifying. Thank you so much for sharing, and I'm very sorry for the loss of your hatchlings. I'm going to do a once over and make sure I don't have anything cedar near my tubs. How close was it to your rack, if you don't mind me asking? Just to be clear, it was those cedar moth ball things, correct?

Yes, cedar moth ball things and also some kind of cedar sheets lining it. I'm not sure if they add extra cedar oil to those things or if they are just plain cedar, but once we opened the box the smell was strong. It was pretty close to the back of the rack...not touching it but a few inches away. I just assumed it was a box of clothes (what it was labeled as) and never opened it. We have fans in the room, and I guess the way they were circulating the air, it was moving air past the box and into the tubs of the babies we lost.

If I had opened the box and known, I wouldn't have put it there, but it was one of those things...trying to clean out my grandparents' house, we were all kinda just dealing with a lot and just trying to get it over with.

Just figured it might be useful info to someone...I had always known cedar was bad, but figured it irritated the respiratory system. I had no idea it could cause organ damage.

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

Yes, cedar moth ball things and also some kind of cedar sheets lining it. I'm not sure if they add extra cedar oil to those things or if they are just plain cedar, but once we opened the box the smell was strong.

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Thank you for clarifying that! I have some cedar antique furniture but there's no smell to it and my snakes certainly don't come into contact with it. I think the cedar moth balls are very high in oil content and offgas much more.

It is one of the big concerns with the new particle boards they use phenolic resins as a binder over the older urea formeldahyde glues (safer for humans). What the health effect is is an unknown. It is known that phenols are bad for reptiles. The concentration and amounts and delivery is all unknown as to how much is too much. I avoid all things phenol until that is certain.