Controversial Topic but I am curious

hello everyone,

I am new here and very much in love with reptiles.

I have a controversial topic to ask about and I hope I don't get in trouble for this.

Today I learned about hybrid snakes (for example a woma python X ball python). I can hardly find any information on this and I DON'T intend to buy one or attempt to breed them. HOWEVER, I wanted to know different opinions on this matter. I have heard there is a lot against this (especially with generations 2 and on). I hope I don't cause any fire, I just want to understand people's thoughts behind this and why. I would love to hear both sides of the coin.

Thank you guys in advance =)

Go for it, walls are awesome. Woma Balls.

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The problem comes in the further generations when it's harder to distinguish that the snake is indeed a hybrid. This means someone could accidentally breed a ball that they didn't know had woma in it into a ball python breeding project. This starts to muddy up the breeding lines.

I've said it before, some agree with me and others don't, but if I were to ever breed hybrids all offspring would be microchipped and the new homes they went to would be required to sign paperwork stating that they would under no circumstance breed this animal, and if they were ever unable to care for it the animal would be returned to me.

I think hybrids can be awesome things, but only in the right hands.

Some hybrids look cool (I actually like the looks of Bateaters) but will I ever own a hybrid or attempt to breed them? No way: I strive for pure animals. Just my preference.

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Originally Posted by catzeye21138

The problem comes in the further generations when it's harder to distinguish that the snake is indeed a hybrid. This means someone could accidentally breed a ball that they didn't know had woma in it into a ball python breeding project. This starts to muddy up the breeding lines.

I've said it before, some agree with me and others don't, but if I were to ever breed hybrids all offspring would be microchipped and the new homes they went to would be required to sign paperwork stating that they would under no circumstance breed this animal, and if they were ever unable to care for it the animal would be returned to me.

I think hybrids can be awesome things, but only in the right hands.

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Is that possible? I thought that it was possible for members of the same Genus to be closely related enough to produce viable offspring, but only members of the same species can produce fertile offspring. That's the definition of species, actually, so I don't see how a hybrid could accidentally muddy up the gene pool.
Like mules- you can buy a mule, but it's not going to make baby mules. And if you bought it thinking it was a horse and planned on breeding it, you got ripped off.
Are snakes different? Or are the different types just significantly different morphs of the same species- and if so, how come they aren't mixing it up on their own in the wild?
This is a serious question, I really don't know and now I'm curious.

People have been combining the differnt genus' of Pituophis, Lampropeltis and Elaphe (Pantherophis) for decades and the offspring are quite fertile. I'm personally against hybrids. Sure there are some interesting combinations but I've been burned before. Many years ago I bought some 'interesting' looking pine snakes which ended up being hybrids. The next generation was all over the place looks wise, if I hadn't hatched them myself I couldn't have even guessed that they were related.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

People have been combining the differnt genus' of Pituophis, Lampropeltis and Elaphe (Pantherophis) for decades and the offspring are quite fertile. I'm personally against hybrids. Sure there are some interesting combinations but I've been burned before. Many years ago I bought some 'interesting' looking pine snakes which ended up being hybrids. The next generation was all over the place looks wise, if I hadn't hatched them myself I couldn't have even guessed that they were related.

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Wow, learn something new every day! I'm going to have to see if my microbiology professor can explain this. If not, I see an independent research project in my future. I can totally see the problem with hybrids- it could ultimately lead to the loss of the original 3 genera and lead to the creation of one catch-all genus.

re the plural of genus: A Roman walks into a bar and asks for a martinus. The bartender asks, "Did you mean a martini?" The Roman responds, "If I wanted a double, I would have asked for it."

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Originally Posted by MarkS

People have been combining the differnt genus' of Pituophis, Lampropeltis and Elaphe (Pantherophis) for decades and the offspring are quite fertile. I'm personally against hybrids. Sure there are some interesting combinations but I've been burned before. Many years ago I bought some 'interesting' looking pine snakes which ended up being hybrids. The next generation was all over the place looks wise, if I hadn't hatched them myself I couldn't have even guessed that they were related.

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I agree with this. Even if they're fertile, I wouldn't breed them, usually. If its done by someone very responsibly and on a small scale, where everything is documented, then I think thats the only time it's ok. But even then, to keep it on a small scale, I would think you'd have to euthanize animals you don't hold back to breed because if you sell them to someone then you can't guarantee they won't somehow get bred down the road. Sometimes unknowingly, like what happened to mark.^ So yea, in conclusion, I really don't see much of a point and wouldn't do it. Just because somethings possible, doesn't mean you should do it.

Thank you guys so much! I have really enjoyed reading all of the responses.

I think when it comes to hybrids, it simply depends on the hybrid's appearance, which is probably why, I think, the breeders breed them. If the hybrid looks like a 50/50 of the parents or their own species, the hybrid can be considered a success, as there is no mistaking them for another species. For example, you would have to be blind or dumb to mistake a bateater for either a burmese python or a reticulated python. The possibility of them threatening the future lineages of the species are slim. However, animals that are closely related, phylogenetically, should be restrained from breeding. This includes integrades, such as the different subspecies of carpet pythons and diamond pythons, or closely related species such as short-tailed pythons, and the corn snake complex. The resulting hybrids (or integrades) are more-so failures, as they look too similar to either parent, and pose a threat to future offspring's purity when someone naive breeds them. Also, they loose the main point in breeding hybrids, since offspring don't look completely different, and the hybrid novelty isn't really with them. They aren't interesting as hybrids go.
Point in case, I find extreme examples of hybrids acceptable, such as bateaters, walls, and superballs. I even agree they should be bred to produce 50/50 F2 generations and so forth. I would definitely own, collect, and breed my own hybrids. I'm a bit iffy when it comes to breeding hybrids back to one related species, but in some extreme case hybrids, even the resulting hybrids look like they have something bizarre in their genetics going on, and even the snake noob couldn't mistake them for a pure species. I'm not sure I would produce those though.
After all, hybrids definitely work in the end. It sure did work for domestic cats, whom, among being selectively bred European Wildcats for domestic mutations, were further mixed with African Wildcats and developed their own species, leaving us with the infamous Felis catus. (I believe it should still be classified as a subspecies of Felis silvestris but that's a different scientific discussion.)

Im not against hybrids if (again) they were "kept on a short leash". I personally would own a hybrid just to have one in my collection, not to breed. I think some hybrids are awesome lookin animals, and a friend of mine has one in his collection. Its my favorite snake of all of his animals. Its a blood/ball and she is super kewl lookin.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Im not against hybrids if (again) they were "kept on a short leash".

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Agreed. But we're dealing with human being and if there is a dollar sign attached, there's no way to control this. They'll get sold, given up, and end up in someone's collection where the uniqueness will be bred once again. Personally against hybrids as we're forcing something that (I am guessing) rarely occurs in their natural habitat.

Hybrids are awesome, but MUCH responsibility is required when crossing breeds. I personally would love to have a SUPERBALL (blood X ball python)

Finally found my password. I am really glad there were more posts. Gives me lots to think about.

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http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/hybrids/

Same as everyone else said, the risk of having someone unknowing breed them as pure animals is scary so it should only only be done very very carefully. I am not against them by any means, but I won't be breeding any myself. I do think having a superball or burmball would be cool as a pet only.

Hybrids do occur in the wild, it's an important part of the natural process of evolving new species. Personally I'm not a big fan of it in captiviy myself, unless there's a good reason like something is about to go extinct (preserving genetic variation among galapagos tortoise subspecies comes to mind). But if you want to see people get really crazy, bring up hybrids in a dart frog forum. ;)

The only hybrid i really like is the burm balls think they look super cool and it makes you wonder how the heck that happened a little bp breeding with a huge burm
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/13/5umagu6a.jpg

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I am hoping to breed my woma to a female ball sometime to produce some walls. They are stunning.

I had no idea there were burm balls! I have no idea how that happens lolz. I also do love the way the walls look. I love Woma pythons so much. I wish they were more readily available and less expensive, they are so gentle.

I'm against it for me personally, but I don't try and tell others what they should be doing. Far as I'm concerned, most species have so many cool "paint jobs" that I just have no interest in hybrids.

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Originally Posted by Willie76

Agreed. But we're dealing with human being and if there is a dollar sign attached, there's no way to control this. They'll get sold, given up, and end up in someone's collection where the uniqueness will be bred once again. Personally against hybrids as we're forcing something that (I am guessing) rarely occurs in their natural habitat.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Im not against hybrids if (again) they were "kept on a short leash". I personally would own a hybrid just to have one in my collection, not to breed. I think some hybrids are awesome lookin animals, and a friend of mine has one in his collection. Its my favorite snake of all of his animals. Its a blood/ball and she is super kewl lookin.

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These both right here^.

Story time!

TimTim of TJL Exotics and I were strolling through the White Plains expo Last weekend. I noticed there unmarked snakes at Outback Reptiles booth, they looked like angry balls (angolan/ball python hybrid). So we inquired about them and why they were unmarked and all the way at the end of the table. One of the gentleman at the booth was very nice and took the time to talk to us even though the snakes weren't for sale. He said that they got them in as 3 Angolans from a friend who got them in a trade and thought that's what they were. He was a pretty nice guy and really did make it sound like his buddy just made an honest mistake. He then said that they're cool and he'd always wondered what breeding them to an albino ball python and then breeding back to the parents would look like.

Problems with this story...
1. How many different people did the angry balls go through and how many of those people knew what they actually were?
2. At SOME point in that line of people, someone was dishonest about them. (big surprise huh?)
3. Attempting to breed morphs into them is just asking for trouble. Unless you really know what you're doing, you will just screw up and muddy the genetics.

So Yea, if you're honest and smart and know what you're actually doing, then by all means, make a couple hybrids. I will admit, some are very cool looking. But, as you can clearly see from my story, those kinds of deals happen ALL the time ALL over. And that's the problem I have with hybrids and why I frown upon them.

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Not a fan of hybrids personally. I currently work with 2 hybrids at my local nature center which were bred by a local breeder. One snake is a black/everglades ratsnake hybrid and the other is a pine/bull hybrid.

The black/everglades rat is 2-3 years old and is about 2-3 feet long. Black rats get 5+ feet long with some thickness and everglades rats are about 3-4 feet and stay relatively thin. I have a feeling this snake will have stunted growth and stay short, I'll know in the next year. I do know everglades and yellow rat snakes breed in the wild because they cross territories in FL but they are probably also a lot closer genetically than black or everglades rat(this is speculation and do not know for sure).

The pine/bull is around the same age, maybe a little older, and is about 4 feet long with a sister which is 7 feet long at another nature center. This snake eats more than my cali king ever did, it is the biggest garbage can ever. I've heard people feed their pines and bulls 2-3 mice a week, this one has easily taken 5 and looked for more. I think it either has a super high metabolism or needs to grow and can't because the nature center wants limits on how much we feed the snakes(which I'm trying to change). This snake has already developed a cataract in its left eye and is half the size of its right eye which could be an incubation problem or a genetic defect.

It's very hard to discern how making hybrids will affect the snake physically, how we care for them, and what traits will be passed on or how new ones may arise.