What's Wrong With My BP ?

I noticed this morning that my snake was acting oddly. He kept twisting his head around and pointing his head back in the air nd he is also pushing against the glass a lot. I don't think it's mites however. When I pet him he kept moving his head around quickly and when I held him his tail was flicking around which he doesn't normally do. He hasn't gone to the bathroom in a while so I can't tell if he's merely irritated or if it's a more serious problem. I was just wondering if anyone had any possible answers or solutions to make this behavior go away.

Do you think he's trying to find a way to escape? Snakes are escape artists and spend a lot of time trying to find a way out.

He's never acted like this before, although he has grown a lot since I've gotten him so it's possible he's becoming more adventurous. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be something more serious. The only thing that really worries me is how much he's been moving, it's as if he's very antsy. Earlier today he had his head curled up against his neck while the rest of him was spread out in the cage, which is a weird enough position for him in the first place, and then when I came back from the bathroom less than a minute later he was uncurled again. He just keeps stopping then moving and just repeating the process.

Is he a morph or a "normal" BP? How long have you had him? Have you used any chemicals in the tank recently...like mite killer? Do you have any other reptiles in the house?

We took my snake to the vet and found out that he had IBD. He was basically starving to death and it was also affecting the neurological part of his brain which is why he was moving so oddly, because he could no longer tell up from down. We decided that it would be best to put him down in order to stop his suffering. He will definitely be missed as he was my first snake and my first companion that I could truly call my own even though we we're together for only a month.

I hate to say this.

The chance he had IBD is fairly small.

There are a few things that can cause that type of behaviour such as protozoan infection, over heating and toxic exposure.

If he has been growing and eating in the month you had him I'd say those were almost infinitely more likely to have been the problem.


dr del

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Originally Posted by Clarabomji

We took my snake to the vet and found out that he had IBD.

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It might be too late if the body has already been disposed of, but I would have the snake necropsied to be certain either way. Also, I see you're in MD - which vet did you use? If there's a vet within driving distance of me (I'm close to Hagerstown) that can diagnose IBD in just a few hours that would be very useful to know.

I'm sorry of your loss. Even in the short time I've had my Nagini, she is part of the family. I hope you find out exactly what took him from you.

I don't really care whether it was IBD or not, all I know is that he was in pain and suffering and I'm just glad we took him to the vet earlier rather than later in order to put him out of his misery. I went to Chadwell Veterinary Clinic in Abingdon because my aunt had a problem previously with one of her snakes and she said they were really good. I agree with her because the doctor who saw my snake knew what she was talking about and took one look at Basil and knew what was wrong with him. Even if IBD is rare its still go to happen to somebody and the breed of snake mine was is known for having it often. I'm just glad he's not in pain anymore because it hurt to seem him that way.

I thought IBD couldn't be diagnosed without a biopsy of the organs and only after the specimen has passed?


I'm sorry for your loss.:(

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I'm not sure how it works but he was showing extreme outward signs of a neurological problem with his movements and loss of a sense of direction and she said that in order for him to be in such a debilitated state it had to have been going on for months and considering he was at most six months old we think he was born with it and that it didn't suddenly develop. Other signs was that he refused to eat as much as he should have been, was completely uninterested in food and by the time we took him to the vet he was anemic and severely emaciated even though we tried many times to get him to eat.

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Originally Posted by Clarabomji

I don't really care whether it was IBD or not, all I know is that he was in pain and suffering and I'm just glad we took him to the vet earlier rather than later in order to put him out of his misery. I went to Chadwell Veterinary Clinic in Abingdon because my aunt had a problem previously with one of her snakes and she said they were really good. I agree with her because the doctor who saw my snake knew what she was talking about and took one look at Basil and knew what was wrong with him. Even if IBD is rare its still go to happen to somebody and the breed of snake mine was is known for having it often. I'm just glad he's not in pain anymore because it hurt to seem him that way.

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Breed of snake? Can you elaborate? Do you mean ball pythons or the morph of the ball python? It is my understanding that IBD is VERY RARE in ball pythons. So I don't know how accurate "the breed of snake is known for having it often" is...

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Originally Posted by Clarabomji

I'm not sure how it works but he was showing extreme outward signs of a neurological problem with his movements and loss of a sense of direction and she said that in order for him to be in such a debilitated state it had to have been going on for months and considering he was at most six months old we think he was born with it and that it didn't suddenly develop. Other signs was that he refused to eat as much as he should have been, was completely uninterested in food and by the time we took him to the vet he was anemic and severely emaciated even though we tried many times to get him to eat.

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Are you sure there wasn't an issue with your heating? It really does sound much more like a neurological problem due to overheating than IBD..


Sorry for your loss :(

Like Steffe said, heating issues can cause neuro problems. High temperature spikes or unregulated heating pads, etc etc can cause neuro issues. These types of cases do often get better with time though. I have a pinstripe that used to show a neuro head wobble for the first few months of his life, then completely disappeared as he got older. What was your temps at? Was your heating element regulated with a thermostat (not thermometer)? Is your husbandry perfect?

Neuro problems may or may not cause suffering, pain, or bad quality of life.
Spider morphs all have a neurological head wobble to different degrees and thrive just fine.

I sincerely apologize for sounding uncaring, but I do care, which is why I'm asking these questions.
I trust you and your vet, but I'm just a little skeptical about the IBD thing... Especially since your vet diagnosed it on a live animal. Did they do a blood test? I'm pretty sure you can only test for IBD post-mortem vis tissue biopsy . And python type IBD works extremely fast. Your snake would probably have been dead within weeks.

Interest in food could be husbandry or food type related. What were you feeding? Live? Frozen?

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I thought IBD couldn't be diagnosed without a biopsy of the organs and only after the specimen has passed?


I'm sorry for your loss.:(

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Correct, there is no way to visually identify IBD. IBD is only one of several conditions that can cause what look like neurological type problems with a lot of head flipping and twisting in unusual ways. My understanding is that Inclusion Body Disease is a disease that will cause small inclusion bodies (growths) to appear in the organs including the brain. It's these tiny growths in the brain that cause the neurological symptoms that you see with this disease. However there are many other things that can cause the same symptoms. In spider balls it appears to occur naturally. I've seen it occur in animals that were overheated, this will often disappear with time. I've seen it in snakes that were poisoned (snakes kept on ceder bedding, over use of mite sprays) This will also often get better with time but seems to take longer then with overheating. And I've seen it in snakes that were in the last stages of starvation. In fact any snake that is dying will often appear to lose control of it's bodily movements, that's why we'll often find dead snakes flipped over on their backs.

I'm very sorry for your loss, but there is no way your vet can diagnose IBD with just a physical exam.

not trying to add salt to the wound, but I know of plenty of instances when a vet has told someone they need something done and it's going to cost them like $300 and then when you say that's not gonna work for you, it miraculously turns into a $30 bill for a simple treatment. I'm just saying vets in general, I don't know your vet personally.

Like I said before I don't care if it was IBD or not, my vet didn't try to offer an expensive treatment or give some illogical solution that would cost me money. She simply said to put him down and it wasn't expensive at all. The only reason the price went up was because I wanted to keep my snake's ashes after he was cremated.

And we are saying, if its not IBD, there's a high chance there was nothing terribly wrong with your snake. You made a thread asking for help. We are trying to help. We asked questions to narrow down the issue. For all we know, your vet put down an animal who's health could have improved due to a simple husbandry change and regulated heat. As mentioned previously, hundreds of ball pythons live quality lives and thrive with neuro issues.

Again, I'm really sorry for your loss. But I think you prematurely jumped the gun on euthanasia in my personal opinion.....

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Originally Posted by Clarabomji

I don't really care whether it was IBD or not, all I know is that he was in pain and suffering and I'm just glad we took him to the vet earlier rather than later in order to put him out of his misery. I went to Chadwell Veterinary Clinic in Abingdon because my aunt had a problem previously with one of her snakes and she said they were really good. I agree with her because the doctor who saw my snake knew what she was talking about and took one look at Basil and knew what was wrong with him. Even if IBD is rare its still go to happen to somebody and the breed of snake mine was is known for having it often. I'm just glad he's not in pain anymore because it hurt to seem him that way.

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I'm very sorry for your loss. However, there's no breed of ball python known for having it often, nor born with it that I'm personally aware of. Was this a spider ball python by chance?

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Originally Posted by Clarabomji

Like I said before I don't care if it was IBD or not, my vet didn't try to offer an expensive treatment or give some illogical solution that would cost me money. She simply said to put him down and it wasn't expensive at all. The only reason the price went up was because I wanted to keep my snake's ashes after he was cremated.

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I'm not going to get into the whole debate on whether or not your snake truly had IBD. If you and your vet truly believe it did, you should avoid bringing any other boids or boas into your home for at least a year to avoid spreading the disease to them. That's why I would have had a necropsy done on the snake, so I'd know whether I had to self-QT for the next 12 months.
I'm very sorry for your loss.

Sorry for your loss. U will always have the memory's and pics.

I am sorry for your loss, and I know you made what you felt was a good decision, but the chances your ball python had IBD are slim to none. In ball pythons it kills very quickly, and almost certainly wasn't "born with it".
I don't think this vet gave you accurate advise at all, and if you decide to get another snake in a year when the chance of IBD infecting a new snake has passed, I most certainly would not be returning to that vet. Any vet worth anything who treats snakes would know that IBD cannot be diagnosed until after the snake has died. They would also know there are MANY things besides IBD that can cause they symptoms you describe.
A good reptile vet would start with asking you about your husbandry, feeding schedule, where the snake was purchased to ascertain the chance of IBD exposure, and a number of other questions to make sure other causes could be ruled out before making a diagnoses of IBD. Especially since any good reptile vet would know IBD is extremely rare in ball pythons, not extremely common.

I do feel sympathy for you, but I still believe a mistake was made and that your snake did not need to die.

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

In ball pythons it kills very quickly

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Sure about that?

For the sake of the community, I think it would be good to post the name and location of the vet who gave you this half assed and dangeroous advice.

That way, other members can be spared being fed a line of crap and having to euthanize an animal that may have been just fine.

Now before you restate again what that quack told you, let's correct some stuff have been were told:

1. IBD is rare. It is even rarer in ball pythons. There are many things that could have been going on with your snake. Most of them conditions that could have been addressed. Most of them conditions that were not causing the animal any pain or suffering.

2. IBD often times does not present with any neurological symptoms.

3. Dr. Hack McQuack had no way of telling whether or not that animal was suffering.

4. IBD does not kill ball pythons quickly.

You were robbed of the examination fee and the euthanasia fee by a hack vet who didn't know her left ear from her ass. You can rationalize that you did the right thing over and over again despite what Nikki is trying to tell you but the fact remains - you euthanized a snake that may have been fine on the advice of an ignorant vet.

Please post the vet's name so that any members in you area can avoid her like the plague.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

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Please post the vet's name so that any members in you area can avoid her like the plague.

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They did say this much:

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Originally Posted by Clarabomji

... I went to Chadwell Veterinary Clinic in Abingdon ....

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I will certainly defer to Skip's experience in this matter. I was always told IBD kills quickly if present in a ball python. Never having had a snake that had it, I merely repeat what I was told. Skip I believe has had a snake or perhaps snakes that were diagnosed if I remember correctly. If Skip says it does not kill ball pythons quickly, he certainly knows more about it than I do.

Honestly, I wasn't trying to make you feel badly. To blame you was not my intention at all. I simply feel you were badly misinformed in this case, I would hate to see you loose another animal to a vet you trusted and who lacked the experience to guide you and treat your animals. It's happened to me before. I lost three animals to different vets I trusted to tell me the right thing, and to know what they were diagnosing and treating. It made me very cautious about going to a vet and very reluctant to trust one.

Happily I finally found a vet who is worth her weight in gold to me. She is very knowledgeable, but can and does admit when she's in over her head and needs to contact someone with more experience with a particular problem or animal.

I know this was very hard on you, it was on me as well. To loose a much loved animal is bad enough, but to loose it due to the mistake of the person you trusted to make the animal better is beyond hard. I am not blaming you, I know you are doing enough of that yourself. I simply hope you will consider seeking out a different vet in the future, to prevent another tragedy.

Gale