The real worth of an RHP?

I stumbled upon a post mentioning RHPs and so I looked them up, only to find conflicting information about them thus getting rather confused about them, so basically I'm wondering how exactly they work and if they're worth getting for a ball python? If one would be beneficial or detrimental? I'm really new to this whole herp thing so I find a lot of the explanations and discussions about them that I've come across to be a bit difficult to understand (hence any and all possibly stupid questions), so I'm not even entirely sure how RHPs work, just that they heat things up like natural sunlight does (or fairly close at any rate)? Also would it be too much to use both an RHP and an under tank heating pad (since I know they need heat on their bellies to digest their food)?

They do not need belly heat that is a myth. It doesn't matter how the snake gets its temp up, just that it does. That being said the easiest way to provide a warm spot for the snake is an under tank heater. If your snake is not in a room that the temp is at least 80 degrees (all the time) then you need to do something to boost the ambient temp. The UTH will do nothing for the air temp. So this is where an RHP or a heat lamp would come in. So yes you could use both a RHP and an UTH depending on the circumstances.

What has been explained to me is that RHP's, just like UTH's do very little to increase ambient temperatures (which I understand), what they do is heat objects that are near by.

With that said, I have a T8 from Animal Plastics that is divided to house two ball pythons. I use one strip of 12 inch THG Heat Tape in the middle to provide the belly heat, and two 28 watt RHP's (one on each side). I have not tested what my ambient temps would be without the RHP's, but my ambient temps with them will vary from 78-82 degrees. My ac for my house is kept at 72 degrees. Both my RHPs' are on thermostats and are not set to turn on unless the ambient temps drop below 80 degrees.

Yes technically a RHP is going to heat the objects in the cage, however those objects will in turn heat the air. The net result is the air in the cage ges warmer. How much heating occurs depends how strong the RHP is. I think 28watts are pretty small, RBI heat panels go all the way up to 160 watts.

Here is a link from Reptile Basics that might help as well: http://www.reptilebasics.com/radiant-panel-faq

Rhp are a VERY controversial subject in here. You are going to find some people that swear by them and you are going to find some that are going to tell you that terrestrial snakes such as ball pythons will not benefit from them and you will also find some that are going to tell you that they are not as economical as UTH. Here is my take on them.... I have been running them in my system for about 7 months now ( which includes this past winter!) I live in Chicago so the weather here can get VERY cold. I also live in a very old house that is drafty so I needed something that could keep up with all of that . I am running a properly sized RHP in all of my cages ( the key is Properly sized. If you are not sure what size you need for your cage than talk to Bob at Pro Products and he will set you up! ) Another key thing to mention here is that you must maintain a proper " head" clearance. My cages are all made from 3/4" plywood ( so they have a good insulation factor) and have a height of 24". The RHP are plugged into a herpstat thermostat. I personally have found that with my set up I do not need to run an UTH. My ambient Temps stay at 86 deg hot side, 78 deg cold side and basking spot under the RHP is 92 deg. ( I will add this for technical reasons. RHP do not heat the air, they heat objects which in turn raise the air temps. A trick I use is I have a thick piece of stone in each of my cages to absorb the heat ) Uth's do very little to raise ambient temps and if the thermostat fails you are going to have a very badly burnt snake. I do not ever have to worry about burns because if my thermostat fails the snake will simply move to the cold side to escape the heat if it gets too hot! ( I know, a snake can move away from a UTH to but for what ever reason they never seen to move away from belly heat ,rather they just stay there and get burned! hence the reason heat rocks are frowned upon. ) So in my opinion RHP are safer than UTH. I have also seen a very dramatic change in my electric bills since I have switched from Heat lamps to RHP. So to some it up. In my opinion, under the right conditions and paired with a high quality thermostat, a RHP can be a great heating option!!!!

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

Rhp are a VERY controversial subject in here. You are going to find some people that swear by them and you are going to find some that are going to tell you that terrestrial snakes such as ball pythons will not benefit from them and you will also find some that are going to tell you that they are not as economical as UTH. Here is my take on them.... I have been running them in my system for about 7 months now ( which includes this past winter!) I live in Chicago so the weather here can get VERY cold. I also live in a very old house that is drafty so I needed something that could keep up with all of that . I am running a properly sized RHP in all of my cages ( the key is Properly sized. If you are not sure what size you need for your cage than talk to Bob at Pro Products and he will set you up! ) Another key thing to mention here is that you must maintain a proper " head" clearance. My cages are all made from 3/4" plywood ( so they have a good insulation factor) and have a height of 24". The RHP are plugged into a herpstat thermostat. I personally have found that with my set up I do not need to run an UTH. My ambient Temps stay at 86 deg hot side, 78 deg cold side and basking spot under the RHP is 92 deg. ( I will add this for technical reasons. RHP do not heat the air, they heat objects which in turn raise the air temps. A trick I use is I have a thick piece of stone in each of my cages to absorb the heat ) Uth's do very little to raise ambient temps and if the thermostat fails you are going to have a very badly burnt snake. I do not ever have to worry about burns because if my thermostat fails the snake will simply move to the cold side to escape the heat if it gets too hot! ( I know, a snake can move away from a UTH to but for what ever reason they never seen to move away from belly heat ,rather they just stay there and get burned! hence the reason heat rocks are frowned upon. ) So in my opinion RHP are safer than UTH. I have also seen a very dramatic change in my electric bills since I have switched from Heat lamps to RHP. So to some it up. In my opinion, under the right conditions and paired with a high quality thermostat, a RHP can be a great heating option!!!!

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I agree with everything except one thing. :) RHP's, in my opinion, are on thing you can use a lesser of a quality of a thermostat on if your wanted. If mounted on top of a cage, which I assume most are, you can get away with a on/off thermostat like Hydrofarm verse a proportional thermostat like Herpstat for example.

Okay, I have a few questions here:

What exactly is a T-8? I've seen it mentioned here a few times, but I can't actually seem to find out what it actually is.

What would be the properly sized RHP for a 4'L X2'W X16"H enclosure?

I've also heard that heat tape can be dangerous and can burn your snake - is that true? (Abed likes to repeatedly climb up the background on his current tank and kamikaze himself off of it so I don't trust his survival instincts very well)

Sorry for all the questions. I just find this very confusing right now (hopefully something experience will change), but I still wanna make sure I do my best for Abed.

T8 is a 4x2x1 cage made by Animal Plastics. Your best bet is to call either Pro Products or Reptile Basics and explain to them what you are keeping, the cage type and size, and the high and low temps in your room. I'd say a 75-80w RHP will probably be about right, but its best to call and find out.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-With-Pictures!

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Originally Posted by DAL

Okay, I have a few questions here:

What exactly is a T-8? I've seen it mentioned here a few times, but I can't actually seem to find out what it actually is.

What would be the properly sized RHP for a 4'L X2'W X16"H enclosure?

I've also heard that heat tape can be dangerous and can burn your snake - is that true? (Abed likes to repeatedly climb up the background on his current tank and kamikaze himself off of it so I don't trust his survival instincts very well)

Sorry for all the questions. I just find this very confusing right now (hopefully something experience will change), but I still wanna make sure I do my best for Abed.

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There are several things that factor into the size of the RHP. Such as.. Cage size, cage material, High and low temps of the room that the cage is in, What type of animal is in the cage and even things like is the cage near a concrete floor. Heat tape is Used in the same way that UTH are used so they pose the same risk factors as UTH. The down side to RHP are that they are very pricey as compared to heat tape or the cheaper zoo med brand of UTH. They are comparable though to a high quality UTH such as a Kane brand UTH. DO yourself a favor and call Bob at pro Products. You do not have to buy his equipment but just take a few moments and ask him about his RHP and let him give you some very valuable info! I was sold after talking to him BUT even better yet.....I found that all his information was CORRECT :)

Thank you so much for all your help, guys! I will definitely give Bob a call as soon as I a) get my new PVC enclosure and b) get it all set up so I can provide the right information.

Thanks again!

RHPs biggest advantage is a vertical gradient. They make a perfect gradient up and down. norwegn113 has demonstrated a basic failing of RHPs and where all the confusion comes from. In a relatively small space ambient air temps ranging from 78 to 86? unlikely. Air will move by thermal currents. Clearly 8ºF air temp difference is not very likely in a 4-5 sq. foot open space. Measuring ambient temps is complicated under RHPs, they need to be shielded. This leads people to believe RHPs heat air.

Stop and think on it, is the air going to be 8ºF inside an enclosure from one side to the other? Very unlikely. The RHP heats the warm side probe and does not reflect the true air temps.

RHPs work fine they need a fair bit of space and the oldest manufacturer makes a guards for their products. They heat objects so do UTHs the change in ambient temps are about the same. There is no point to have both they do the same thing. I am have had this debate here before but do your own math.

Lets use RB pricing so same thermostat for both lets just say you need 3 feet of 4" heat tape so 3x $2.10 so $6.30 and 4$ for the wire set 10.30 total. That uses max 18 watts.

The RB RHP is $ 64.99 at lets go with the lowest wattage 28w.

UTH usually are set basically to the desired surface temps. (give or take a degree or two.) Typically a RHP surface is greater than 25ºF than the set point.

My math says more power higher purchase price is more expensive.

I would suggest that a RHP can be used for arboreal enclosures and terrestrial enclosures that cannot be heated thorough the floor.

I would suggest a proportional thermostat for RHP UTH it is more debatable IMO. There is no buffer with RHP, they heat quickly so when on there is a marked increase in temps and when off the same. Proportional holds the same temp basically all the time. No big swings.

To me, for terrestrial enclosures, it is an option when UTHs will not work well.

Seriously Kitedemon???? Again you are going to flat out call me a liar???We had this discussion a while ago and it seems you still have the same closed mind you did back then!!!! Did you ever call Bob and talk to him like I suggested or are you still basing your facts of the same little failed experiment you did last year when you tried to put a RHP in a 12" tall box and say " it doesn't work!" Point in fact... you are not here to measure my set up and do tests on MY cage so you can not truly say that I am wrong. You are merely stating your opinion and calling me a liar based on opinion NOT fact!!! I will Not spend another second arguing this with you! You have shown in the past to give bad info to people AND not thoroughly read members posts fully! I suggest to any members out there to take your advice with a grain out salt and like Forest Gump.....Thats all I got to say about that!!

I keep my arboreal tropical colubrids in the same building as my snakes that require cooler temps.

The arboreal colubrids are in 3' or 4' tall cages with radiant heat panels mounted along the length of the ceiling.

In the winter, I kill almost all of the heat in the herp building. I keep it in the mid 50's in there.

But the arboreal cages have a nice toasty heat gradient in there. 90 at the top branches, all the way down to the mid to low 70s at the floor.

In an unheated room.

Sitting directly on the floor.

A linoleum floor.

Which sits on a concrete slab.

Are you getting the picture?

When I kept womas and blackheads, I kept them in cages heated with radiant heat panels. In our house, with the average winter temps at 67 to 68 degrees, the cages were kept at 90 on the hot side and the mid to high 70s on the cool end. With an intermediate zone in between.

If you have some objects in your cage, and these objects are within the area of influence of the RHP, they will heat up.

When they heat up, they will warm up things around them.

The ambient will raise. More so than with just belly or back heat.

If you place an RHP in a cage, with nothing but substrate in it, you will not get this radiant effect.

Whatever.

All I said is 8ºF difference in ambient temps is almost impossible in the space inside a box. THINK logically how is it possible the air temp from the left and right is that different?

I am very open minded I read and ask questions. I did send Bob 3 emails and he didn't respond so I sent one to Reptile radiator and had an interesting discussion. Yes they confirmed black absorbs more long wave IR than white does (white things in the sun are cooler than black ones) You claimed differently. The issue I have is the things closer to the RHP get hotter than the floor does.


How do the objects closer to the panel stay cooler than objects farther? How?

How can you explain 8ºF difference in ambient air temps? Can you explain how that is possible inside an enclosure?

I'd suggest people use their heads and think! Nothing more than logic will bring most to the point of view I have.

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

... some that are going to tell you that they are not as economical as UTH.

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

The down side to RHP are that they are very pricey as compared to heat tape or the cheaper zoo med brand of UTH. They are comparable though to a high quality UTH such as a Kane brand UTH.

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Back peddling again? Do you own a Kane pad? I do. The smallest they make is too large for many enclosures. There are many many brands of UTH that are very good, Kane is one of the only brands that can safely be used inside an enclosure (waterproof and low wattage), very few need or choose to do so.

RHPs are not better than UTH they are basically the same. UTH are easier, to use cheaper to run and buy. There are less issues with them. I have never been able to get temps of 90ºF on the top of the highest part of the hide and 90ºF on the floor. Apparently I am odd in my belief that as you approach the RHP it gets warmer.

I have repeatedly said the same things.

RHP are Radiant heat sources (UTH also are radiant heat sources), they heat objects not air.

RHP heat from the panel down, things closest to the panel are hotter than farther things , this is not ideal for terrestrial animals it is for arboreal.

RHP ,on average, cost more to run and buy than UTH.

Probe placement is problematic. Snakes should NEVER come between a probe and heat source.

RHPs effect on objects changes based on absorption and mass.

The use of an RHP is best suited for arboreal set ups as it heats perfectly vertically. Terrestrial set ups are ideally suited for UTH unless the design of the enclosure is such that they may not be used (wood floors). They are a good second choice.

I have said the same thing over and over your arguments change constantly. The questions above you can try to answer i would like to hear a logical response please omit your digs and insults at me and just answer them. Anyone reading should be able to as well they are common sense.

I have not said you are a liar. I said it was likely your readings are not taken correctly. You may recall you told me you used an IR gun to measure air temps a while back? Clearly you cannot measure air temps with an IR gun? Do I need to find the quote? Please do not attack me I was careful not to make too many waves with you. You demonstrate the issue RHPs are poorly understood. I have used one form or another for going on 20 years I know what they can and can't do. Your claims do not follow the laws of physics.

Is this gonna happen again!!

Everyone, Please don't turn this into another arguement; things were going so well after this morning....

Kite, we did this all last winter and like I said I refuse to get into this with you again. ? You were the one who posted my name in your comment not me, so in the future leave my name out of your comments. I will gladly answer any ones questions that ask to the best of my knowledge, but I owe you no explainations and feel no need to answer yours.It is very frustrating when I cant even post without you always publically broadcasting that I am wrong. Did you see me busting you out the other day when you laid into that kid who was setting up his tank before he got his snake and you got on his case about no thermostat, when in fact he stated it was in the mail. Let me guess you weren't wrong then either?? You are not the "authority " or the only opinion !

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

Is this gonna happen again!!

Everyone, Please don't turn this into another arguement; things were going so well after this morning....

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No its not. I have no intention of this getting out of control. I am done. I said my peace and its over. I just get tired of this guy always shadowing my comments and publically trying to make me look like a fool, As anyone in my place would. All I wanted to do is shared my experiences with other users. The op asked about a product that I use and I answered and all of the sudden I see my name show up in some ones post saying what I said was impossible. This has been going on for 6 months with him now.... sad!!!

I am just going to state a fact or two. Based in physics.

Objects closer to a heat source are hotter than objects farther away. Based on an inverse square equation the same as light. That means there is no way to have the top of a hide cooler than the bottom with an RHP. I have argued this over and over it is a very simple idea easily proved. My problem with my test enclosure the top of the hide is hotter than the floor beside it. The height does not effect the way EM waves travel.

Air moves as it is heated mixes and changes. In a small space it will not stratify and rarely does so horizontally. 8ºF is in error the measurement under the RHP is likely face of the probe not the air. The probe must be shielded to read the air under a RHP or it needs to be powered down for a few min. This is a common error and leads many to claim air is dramatically changed by an RHP some have claimed as much as 20ºF increase in air temps. 4-6 likely, 20º unlikely. If it did increase the ambient temp this dramatically RHPs could not be used in rooms 80ºF.

The objects inside the enclosure make a huge difference, the colour and mass in particular. White glossy surfaces reflect IR, matte black absorbs IR. This also is simple to prove, but still it is debated. I believe that is what I was to confirm with Bob, the silly theory.

RHPs will heat objects and they will lift a few degrees, not the massive amounts some claim. There have been those taken in by such claims purchased gear and then found it failed to do the what was promised drastically change ambient air temps.

My advise is easy try fluorescent lights first. They cost a fraction to buy a fraction to run and heat air not objects. They change ambient air temps where few other things do. If that doesn't work try RHPs. I 100% suggest them in arboreal and semi arboreal set ups they work perfectly. KISS , the simplest solution is often the best.

It is the silliest debate I have ever had all the points I make are common sense.

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

Seriously Kitedemon???? Again you are going to flat out call me a liar???We had this discussion a while ago and it seems you still have the same closed mind you did back then!!!! Did you ever call Bob and talk to him like I suggested or are you still basing your facts of the same little failed experiment you did last year when you tried to put a RHP in a 12" tall box and say " it doesn't work!" Point in fact... you are not here to measure my set up and do tests on MY cage so you can not truly say that I am wrong. You are merely stating your opinion and calling me a liar based on opinion NOT fact!!! I will Not spend another second arguing this with you! You have shown in the past to give bad info to people AND not thoroughly read members posts fully! I suggest to any members out there to take your advice with a grain out salt and like Forest Gump.....Thats all I got to say about that!!

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Wait a minute here... Where did he call you a liar???? He's simply stating his opinion which just happens to be different from your own. I've been in this hobby long enough to know that there are many many ways of doing the same thing and all of them are right as long as it benefits the animals. Believe me there have been many times I've disagreed with kitedemon on care issues, maybe even more then a few, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. It just means that his ideas don't work well with the way I prefer to do things... BUT I DO listen to what he has to say. You never know when or where you can learn something new as long as you keep an open mind... Yes he can be very opinionated in his view points but I believe he just cares deeply for his animals and wants what is best for yours as well. He has strong opinions about what is right but may fail to see that there are other ways that can work just as well. But hey, we're all just human beings here... (ie: we're all fallible)

Just remember, if your animals are thriving and looking good, then whatever you are doing is RIGHT. If they're not doing as well as you would like, then listen to another viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Wait a minute here... Where did he call you a liar???? He's simply stating his opinion which just happens to be different from your own. I've been in this hobby long enough to know that there are many many ways of doing the same thing and all of them are right as long as it benefits the animals. Believe me there have been many times I've disagreed with kitedemon on care issues, maybe even more then a few, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. It just means that his ideas don't work well with the way I prefer to do things... BUT I DO listen to what he has to say. You never know when or where you can learn something new as long as you keep an open mind... Yes he can be very opinionated in his view points but I believe he just cares deeply for his animals and wants what is best for yours as well. He has strong opinions about what is right but may fail to see that there are other ways that can work just as well. But hey, we're all just human beings here... (ie: we're all fallible)

Just remember, if your animals are thriving and looking good, then whatever you are doing is RIGHT. If they're not doing as well as you would like, then listen to another viewpoint.

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Marks, my reference to him calling me a liar is he specifically calls me out by name and then says publicly that what I am saying is impossible! In my opinion that is him calling me a liar. My statements are based on a real life system that I use daily. I am not just making wild accusations that I cant back up. I too only want whats best for the animals as well. The last thing I would ever want to do is give bad advice that would harm an animal. You know I realize that Kitedemon deals with measuring heat in his everyday job I will not discredit that but that may not be the best thing either because there is a point where you become too passionate about what you do and your opinion becomes bias. All I ask is that he stops calling me out by name in front of other users and saying that my statements are wrong. It makes me look like I am giving false info to other people. Marks, this has been going on with him this way since last December and it really starting to wear on me! I am not a scientist and may not be able to explain why my cages are working well but the fact remains that they provide a good environment that my animals are thriving in and to me that's the real proof not some scientific theories.

Kite, I am not arguing the fact that my cage IS hotter at the top then the bottom. My RHP is mounted to the top of the cage , so obviously the closer you get to the heat source the hotter it gets. That is a fact that you have stated and that IS a true statement. Here is how I am calling my cage a satisfactory success IMO. First off I am using 3/4" plywood that is lined with a fiberglass impregnated panel which gives me excellent insulating factors to retain built up heat. ( This is probably the biggest factor in my equation ) I do not have extra air holes drilled in the cages. I am simply using the spaces that are between the sliding glass doors and I have a spacer that keeps the glass doors open an 1/8" at each end, so there is not an overwhelming amount of air movement going on inside to mix all the air together. The panels are mounted to the far left of each cage so that they only are heating the objects under one side of the cage. The other side of the cage is naturally going to be room temp because it is un heated directly. That is the heat gradient that I refer to when I say one side is showing 86 deg. the other is 78 deg. I think one of the things that you do not approve of is that I dangle my thermostat probe rather than fix it directly to the face of the panel ( if you attach the probe directly to the face of the panel and set it for 90 deg, then it is never going to provide enough energy to do anything, so instead I have my probe positioned 3" from the floor at about the height of the snakes back because that is the spot that I want to be at 86 deg.) the face of the panel does get hot ( 172 deg to be exact ) but because it is attached to the ceiling the snake can never lay directly on them. the most that can happen is it comes into brief contact with the panel. and although 172 deg sounds hot a person can hold their hand directly on the face of the panel at that temp for at least 10 seconds before they have to pull away. Regular heat bulbs reach temps of over 600 deg at the surface face. So there you have it . Yes the top of the hide is hotter than the floor of the cage but in nature that would be true of the sun as well. Overhead heat recreates nature better than under tank heat. I have never seen a termite mound that was heated by a UTH. In the wild the sun heats the outside of the mound from over head causing the inside of the mound to heat up and create a warm environment for the snake to live. You may call what I am doing wrong and point out all kinds of scientific flaws on why my temp gradients are not laboratory perfect but the fact remains that my animals are thriving in this environment. They are on regular feed, they thermo regulate themselves from one side of the cage to the other, their sheds are good and they get regular checkups from the vet with blood workup to ensure that they are healthy. So where is the problem??

I believe I said UNLIKELY...

unlikely |ˌənˈlīklē|
adjective ( unlikelier, unlikeliest )
not likely to happen, be done, or be true; improbable: an unlikely explanation | it is unlikely that they will ever be used | [ with infinitive ] : the change is unlikely to affect many people.

So to be clear, you are arguing that the warm air in your enclosure does not rise? Does not mix with the air in the rest of the enclosure to be close to the same temperature? Or that in say 2 feet (width or the enclosure?) it cools off by 8ºF ? Am I the only person who sees this as odd behaviour for air?

Yes I am stubborn and opinionated. I don't care if people think I am it is true. Tenacious, OCD all apply. Clearly. I actually rarely look at whom posted what at all. Mark I am not actually sure what we butted heads on I am sorry if I failed to read fully what you said I skim a lot distracted I have a busy life.

KIte, I AM NOT ARGUING any fact. Yes heat rises yes, yes it does , you are correct ! yes the top of my cage is hotter than the bottom but without cross ventilation heat does not move horizontally. That is why we have to have forced air furnaces of some type of fan in the room to circulate air if you heat your home with a radiant heat source. Without a breeze the room will have " hot spots " which is exactly what I created in my cage a thermal hot spot under the panel. You are the one arguing not me, I say the panels work in my situation you say its highly unlikly, Geesh! Dude I want to like you but with you its always constant drama!! I guess my point is if you do not prefer RHP for terrestrial animals , then dont use them! I personally like them. If they were bad or hurting my animals I would not use them, there are two ways to do the same thing and get good results. Your way works for you and my way works for me! Thats all.

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

Kite, I am not arguing the fact that my cage IS hotter at the top then the bottom. My RHP is mounted to the top of the cage , so obviously the closer you get to the heat source the hotter it gets. That is a fact that you have stated and that IS a true statement. Here is how I am calling my cage a satisfactory success IMO. First off I am using 3/4" plywood that is lined with a fiberglass impregnated panel which gives me excellent insulating factors to retain built up heat. ( This is probably the biggest factor in my equation ) I do not have extra air holes drilled in the cages. I am simply using the spaces that are between the sliding glass doors and I have a spacer that keeps the glass doors open an 1/8" at each end, so there is not an overwhelming amount of air movement going on inside to mix all the air together. The panels are mounted to the far left of each cage so that they only are heating the objects under one side of the cage. The other side of the cage is naturally going to be room temp because it is un heated directly. That is the heat gradient that I refer to when I say one side is showing 86 deg. the other is 78 deg. I think one of the things that you do not approve of is that I dangle my thermostat probe rather than fix it directly to the face of the panel ( if you attach the probe directly to the face of the panel and set it for 90 deg, then it is never going to provide enough energy to do anything, so instead I have my probe positioned 3" from the floor at about the height of the snakes back because that is the spot that I want to be at 86 deg.) the face of the panel does get hot ( 172 deg to be exact ) but because it is attached to the ceiling the snake can never lay directly on them. the most that can happen is it comes into brief contact with the panel. and although 172 deg sounds hot a person can hold their hand directly on the face of the panel at that temp for at least 10 seconds before they have to pull away. Regular heat bulbs reach temps of over 600 deg at the surface face. So there you have it . Yes the top of the hide is hotter than the floor of the cage but in nature that would be true of the sun as well. Overhead heat recreates nature better than under tank heat. I have never seen a termite mound that was heated by a UTH. In the wild the sun heats the outside of the mound from over head causing the inside of the mound to heat up and create a warm environment for the snake to live. You may call what I am doing wrong and point out all kinds of scientific flaws on why my temp gradients are not laboratory perfect but the fact remains that my animals are thriving in this environment. They are on regular feed, they thermo regulate themselves from one side of the cage to the other, their sheds are good and they get regular checkups from the vet with blood workup to ensure that they are healthy. So where is the problem??

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Radiant energy travels through the air without heating it. It turns into heat when it contacts a cooler solid object.

In that sense, it does not directly heat the air.

However, a radiant panel set over a hide and the surrounding floor of a dark PVC cage will effectively heat those surfaces up. The heated hide and floor will warm the walls. Any air that comes into contact with these heated surfaces is also heated.

Therefore, you can get a boost in ambient temps from a RHP. The heated hide works to warm the air, as does the floor. The top of the hide may heat to 94 degrees, but a shot inside the hide, surrounded by heated floor will be a toasty 88 to 89 degrees.

Again, I ran these setups on terrestrial cages with great success. I'm a believer in RHPs and will use them in ANY sort of cage without hesitation.

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

Kite, I am not arguing the fact that my cage IS hotter at the top then the bottom. My RHP is mounted to the top of the cage , so obviously the closer you get to the heat source the hotter it gets. You have brought up (again) my issues I have with MY RHP. That fact the surface temps are correct the hide TOP is warmer than this. You REPEATEDLY tell me it is the fact my test enclosure is 14 inches tall. I have always said that they heat from the top down and tall things are warmer than the lower things. You have always argued this simple fact this is part of why I say they are more complicated the place you want a given temp (substrate) is the coolest thing vertically. That is a fact that you have stated and that IS a true statement. Here is how I am calling my cage a satisfactory success IMO. First off I am using 3/4" plywood that is lined with a fiberglass impregnated panel which gives me excellent insulating factors to retain built up heat. ( This is probably the biggest factor in my equation ) I do not have extra air holes drilled in the cages. I am simply using the spaces that are between the sliding glass doors and I have a spacer that keeps the glass doors open an 1/8" at each end, so there is not an overwhelming amount of air movement going on inside to mix all the air together. Warm air rises it has to move.The panels are mounted to the far left of each cage so that they only are heating the objects under one side of the cage. The other side of the cage is naturally going to be room temp because it is un heated directly. You stated your AIR temps were 8ºF different on the hot side and cool side That is the heat gradient that I refer to when I say one side is showing 86 deg. the other is 78 deg. I think one of the things that you do not approve of is that I dangle my thermostat probe rather than fix it directly to the face of the panel ( if you attach the probe directly to the face of the panel and set it for 90 deg, Mine has always dangled I tried under the substrate as some do I found if you blocked it the temps shot up so I rejected this method, dangling is the best way I found. My FAILSAFE probe is on the panel face which you have been told more than once. then it is never going to provide enough energy to do anything, so instead I have my probe positioned 3" from the floor at about the height of the snakes back because that is the spot that I want to be at 86 deg.) the face of the panel does get hot ( 172 deg to be exact ) but because it is attached to the ceiling the snake can never lay directly on them. the most that can happen is it comes into brief contact with the panel. and although 172 deg sounds hot a person can hold their hand directly on the face of the panel at that temp for at least 10 seconds before they have to pull away. Regular heat bulbs reach temps of over 600 deg at the surface face. So there you have it . I have never argued any of this. I can read the brochure, I have said as always if the snake can access higher temps on a surface they could lay on that exceed 95º they can have digestion issues like the top of a hide with over head heating. Yes the top of the hide is hotter than the floor of the cage but in nature that would be true of the sun as well. ??? really a difference in temp in four inches? that is unrelated to absorption? Overhead heat recreates nature better than under tank heat. I have never seen a termite mound that was heated by a UTH. In the wild the sun heats the outside of the mound from over head causing the inside of the mound to heat up and create a warm environment for the snake to live. You may call what I am doing wrong and point out all kinds of scientific flaws on why my temp gradients are not laboratory perfect but the fact remains that my animals are thriving in this environment. They are on regular feed, they thermo regulate themselves from one side of the cage to the other, their sheds are good and they get regular checkups from the vet with blood workup to ensure that they are healthy. So where is the problem?? That is simple, you have told me many times the top of my hide being warmer than the bottom is because my enclosure is too short. You have twice suggested that a RHP alone can heat the ambient air more than 15ºF in a regular enclosure. Again you are claiming a gradient in ambient air temps. WARM air rises inside or out side the enclosure it rises law of physics. It has got to mix. The point I made the first time is this it is unlikely that the AIR temps have a gradient as great as 8ºF there MUST be an error. The LIKELY error is placing the probe under the panel and measuring the 'air' temp. It is not the air being measured but the surface of the probe. This is why the claim of massive air temp changes happen the air is not being measured. RHP make small changes to ambient air temps not large ones. You recommend RHP in every case. You always tell me that my enclosure is too low, you then suggest someone use a RHP in a lower enclosure. You can't have it both ways. Things can't heat 15-20ºF air temps (ambient) and then change to only heat 8º or less It does or doesn't they do not vary like with the hot spot the same temp.

I have said over and over they are about the same, one no better or worse than the other. RHP cost more to operate and buy than UTH do. (average RHP is 60$ to average UTH 20$ and UTH almost always are lower wattages so they use less power and heat more energy efficiently (they do not need to be over 100ºF usually.) You compare RHP to Kanes cost wise, it is like saying trucks are cheaper than cars because bugotti veyron costs $1000000.

They effect air temps a little more than a UTH but if you are in a cool room (below normal, >68º) you will still need a secondary heat source, they have more ins and outs that can make them more complex to set up (look at probe placement, there is at least 4 major methods UTH one, maybe two. (More options = more complicated) You have consistently fought this you refuse to accept they might cost more than (original debate was flex watt) UTH in general (even kanes are cheaper as most I see have built in thermostats) They have more complications and they are not efficient heaters. (172 deg to be exact to get 86º, 50% heat loss. UTH usually lose less than 15%) More efficient = less energy. RHPs are less efficient, cost more and are more complicated. This makes the easy cheaper solution a UTH. The differences are slight. You have always argued they are cheaper, the most efficient heat (then talked about heat lamps which no one brought up but you) and vastly different. Yet never have been able to back up the differences or the cost. I have never said they would not work just they are not well suited to terrestrial enclosures (Height less than 16 inches) You constantly argue and yet yours are what 2 feet tall? Hardly the same. You argue they are simple then spout you need to have it sized correctly by one person who will ask every question possible, all a UTH needs is a measuring tape.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

http://images43.fotki.com/v1367/phot...hpprobe-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

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you the man kite, you the man! feel better now?? Me , Im done here! as far as im concerned I have stated my opinions and this thread is now closed to me. Bye.

I just bought one of these shelters for Abed yesterday:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2j0lgsp.jpg

It's currently in what is supposed to be his cool side (I have his UTH turned off until I can get the Hydrofarm's probe on right). I've made it nice and cozy with damp bedding (moss, substrate, and some damp paper towel underneath) and he seems to really like it, so I'm considering buying a second one for his warm side (since I've seen it mentioned that both hides should be identical so the snake doesn't have to choose between security and regulating temperature), but obviously this particular hide wouldn't work with an UTH (or so I'm assuming since it would have to get past the bottom of the enclosure, substrate, and then the rather thick plastic bottom), so my next question is would a RHP be able to keep this shelter warmed up enough (it is on the dark side after all) or should I just scrap getting a second one?

Wow, did someone put an RHP on this thread? It's getting a little too hot in here. Could everyone please cool down a little? There's some good information in here and I really don't want to lock this thread.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Wow, did someone put an RHP on this thread? It's getting a little too hot in here. Could everyone please cool down a little? There's some good information in here and I really don't want to lock this thread.

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Im cool Marks, no more problems from me I promise! :)