Het clown markers

I know markers are not a sure way of telling if a snake is het for something. I have a mojave thats 50% het clown. Didnt get him for the clown gene (that was just a little bonus). I just wanted to know what a mojave het clown "looks" like.

post a picture of the snake or email it to me @ snakesrkewl@gmail.com and I might be able to give you an educated guess.

I dont think there are any widely accepted het clown markers are there? Ive seen vids on you tube about lines on the tail but thats it, and only 1 guys theory? A mojave het clown looks like a mojave! Although lots of clowns are said to throw out mad hets. I have two 100% het clowns, perfectly normal looking(ones a pastel)!

Color and/or pattern are the markers. Just like visual morphs, clown hets have good and bad examples.
A good example of a clown Het looks very different from a regular counterpart. My pastel Het clown is very very bright and clean. The clown gene tends to brighten and cleans up codom morphs. Sometimes gives them a funky pattern. Its not as visual in the wildtype version.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Color and/or pattern are the markers. Just like visual morphs, clown hets have good and bad examples.
A good example of a clown Het looks very different from a regular counterpart. My pastel Het clown is very very bright and clean. The clown gene tends to brighten and cleans up codom morphs. Sometimes gives them a funky pattern. Its not as visual in the wildtype version.

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I disagree. A het isnt meant to look good, its meant to make clowns. A good example of a het clown to me would be one that makes nice clowns, no matter how normal they look. I've seen some stunning clowns from normal looking hets!

That's only if you think they are a true recessive, which I and many others don't believe they are. They have codom tendencies like Pieds on other morphs, which indicates the possibility of being just a subtle codom like paint, Spector, etc. Look at more examples of morph Het clowns and tell me you still disagree. Read more clown threads here, on Facebook breeder pages, other forums, and from reputable clown breeders themselves. They are not so recessive than you think.

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Here's a pic of our Mojave 100% Het Clown. He looks pretty different from our Mojaves that are not hets.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/23/ejamyvym.jpg

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Originally Posted by satomi325

That's only if you think they are a true recessive, which I and many others don't believe they are. They have codom tendencies like Pieds on other morphs, which indicates the possibility of being just a subtle codom like paint, Spector, etc. Look at more examples of morph Het clowns and tell me you still disagree. Read more clown threads here, on Facebook breeder pages, other forums, and from reputable clown breeders themselves. They are not so recessive than you think.

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So basically a "het clown" is actually a "clown" and a "visual clown" would be a "super clown"? That is what this theory means?

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Originally Posted by BrianB801

So basically a "het clown" is actually a "clown" and a "visual clown" would be a "super clown"? That is what this theory means?

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yes but its (badly)flawed. Not all het pieds have tramlines, not all het clowns look any different.

Are you suggesting you ciould accurately pick the hets from a het to normal pairing?? Ive done plenty of reading. Some hets look mad, some dont!

Here he is Mojave 50% het clownhttp://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/...psfb2c3004.jpghttp://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/...ps865e7483.jpghttp://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/...psb5460e9d.jpghttp://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/...psfa17dc25.jpg

which kinda proves my point. There would be no 50% hets! Ud be able to see em.....

I've seen "markers" for different recessives but none that are consistent. Just odd markings on a normal pattern, but even 100% normals regularly have odd markings. I couldn't be further from an expert but i don't really buy into the het markings things.

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Yea im not too convinced either. If there were real markers then breeders should be able to identify hets and sells them as hets and not posshets.

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Originally Posted by BrianB801

I've seen "markers" for different recessives but none that are consistent. Just odd markings on a normal pattern, but even 100% normals regularly have odd markings. I couldn't be further from an expert but i don't really buy into the het markings things.

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I think there is something to it, especially with the pied tramlines being so widely documented. If you breed het pied to normal, i think its fair to say that statistically the offspring with the tramlines have more than the 50% chance of proving out they should have. However, thats not to say that offspring without tramlines wont prove out or have less chance of proving out. Only some hets have markers, others look perfectly normal.

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Originally Posted by dprballs

yes but its (badly)flawed. Not all het pieds have tramlines, not all het clowns look any different.

Are you suggesting you ciould accurately pick the hets from a het to normal pairing?? Ive done plenty of reading. Some hets look mad, some dont!

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I'm hardly talking about track lines on pied bellies. This shows me you clearly don't know what I'm talking about when I say Het Pied changes morph phenotype.(example, pewter Het Pieds)

And like I said before, there are good and bad examples of these 'Het' just like any other visual morph. A crappy yellowbelly or fire can look like a normal. A quality fire or YB looks nothing like a normal. Same thing here.

Yes, I've had a pretty good track record picking out hets from their regular siblings. The hets look different and know many who have proven out PH. Many breeders know which are actual hets from possible hets, but cannot label them as such due to the parental pair. If I hatched out 50% Hets, its unethical to label them 100% even if I knew they would prove out. I would however, let the buyer know.

Keep looking at examples, you'll develop an eye for them. Just like how people can pick out specters, specials, whatever from the normals.

Look for Mike41793's pied thread. Its the perfect read for you. With visual proof and examples for Het Clown and Pieds.

Keep an open mind. When a 'Het' has the ability to change phenotype visually, can you really call that recessive?

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My cinny ph pied has no track lines along her belly but i'm willing to bet her whole first clutch that she'll prove out. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

My cinny ph pied has no track lines along her belly but i'm willing to bet her whole first clutch that she'll prove out. ;)

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Post her up! I know she'll prove out for sure too. No doubt about it.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I'm hardly talking about track lines on pied bellies. This shows me you clearly don't know what I'm talking about when I say Het Pied changes morph phenotype.(example, pewter Het Pieds)

And like I said before, there are good and bad examples of these 'Het' just like any other visual morph. A crappy yellowbelly or fire can look like a normal. A quality fire or YB looks nothing like a normal. Same thing here.

Yes, I've had a pretty good track record picking out hets from their regular siblings. The hets look different and know many who have proven out PH. Many breeders know which are actual hets from possible hets, but cannot label them as such due to the parental pair. If I hatched out 50% Hets, its unethical to label them 100% even if I knew they would prove out. I would however, let the buyer know.

Keep looking at examples, you'll develop an eye for them. Just like how people can pick out specters, specials, whatever from the normals.

Look for Mike41793's pied thread. Its the perfect read for you. With visual proof and examples for Het Clown and Pieds.

Keep an open mind. When a 'Het' has the ability to change phenotype visually, can you really call that recessive?

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Im sorry i got the wrong end of the stick..i think i know what your referring to - do pieds somehow look lighter the morph hets?? I believe i have read about what your referring to im just not that up the Pieds. Would i be right in saying that the patterned parts of the homo pied also display differences than the normal morph would??

I will search out Mikes thread. Thanks for the tip :)

My point was that it doesnt happen all the time, but your counter that bad fires and vanillas look just like normals is right!

Sorry if i frustrated u :rolleye2:

If anyone has a link to Mike41793s pied thread i would be grateful!! He has a lotta posts...ive tried a google site search etc. no joy though!

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

Here's a pic of our Mojave 100% Het Clown. He looks pretty different from our Mojaves that are not hets.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/23/ejamyvym.jpg

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Wouldn't common sense tell you to post pics side by side,so people could see the difference?

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

Wouldn't common sense tell you to post pics side by side,so people could see the difference?

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Well, excuse me. I am posting from my ipad on tapatalk, as I am out of town. I don't have a pic of a non-het Mojave available and figured something was better than nothing. Guess that's what I get for trying to be helpful....

In the text book world there is recessive where the hets are completely normal 100% of the time and co-dominant where the hets are always clearly visible. As inconvenient as it is for those with a high need for order it seem in the real world it's much messier with a continuum between recessive and co-dominant. Pied was originally considered recessive but IMHO it has some strong co-dominant tendencies. No, it's not all the way to the co-dominant end of the spectrum like say pastel (maybe that's not even a good example as seems I've seen some posts questioning pastel and super pastels). I think hypo also has some fair co-dominant tendencies but maybe not showing quite as regularly as het in pieds. I'm only starting to work with clown so really don't have a feel for how often het clown shows through and which other morphs might make it more likely to show. Some even claim to be able to pick het albinos although I'm a little skeptical on that thinking albino may be very close to the text book recessive end of the spectrum.

Here is a picture of a 3 year old prooven breeder Pastel 100% het clown - that's how we bought him from a reputable breeder. We will prove him ourselves hopefully this year. We are also just starting the clown projects, so I don't know what to look for in het clowns :). Here is a picture:

http://www.gpreptiles.com/foto/kolekcja/pastel1.jpg

For me it looks like a regular pastel, but I have no eye for picking up Clown markers :).

I know this thread is a little dated, but I wanted to chime in too because I think there is a lot of good information and interesting hypotheses related to what's being discussed here.
From my experience working with clowns, there is no way for me to identify, with 100% certainty, which animals carry the clown gene from those that do not. I agree that het clowns often do influence the "look" of a snake, but I don't think that it can be used as a generalization for all het clowns and definitely not as a way to sell a possible het as a 100% het.
I can lay down a few examples of snakes in front of people, some that are hets and some that aren't, and the difference may be so minimal that it could be regarded as a natural variance in the morph or combo. I've hatched out some amazing possible het clown combos that I would bet money they were carrying the gene, but I wouldn't gamble my reputation on it.
It would be an interesting, though lengthy, experiment for someone to test their theory on identifying het clown genetics and I'd love to see what the results were.
Good stuff!!
Thanks,
John

thanks john for your post. it s not outdated at all. many hobbyist would like to be able to pick up their het. clown female to make their own clown with their little budget. So if people keep posting informations on this thread it will benefit to all the little one like many who dreams about their own clown but can t offer to buy 100% het couple.

Het clown not only changes pattern but it changes color too, especially in some morph hets.

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So basically a "het clown" is actually a "clown" and a "visual clown" would be a "super clown"? That is what this theory means?

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No, a het clown is a heterozygous trait and the clown is a super/homozygous trait.
No different than a pastel is a heterozygous trait and it's super/homozygous trait is a super pastel.

It influences yellowbelly's to the extreme ...

2 different lines of yellowbelly moms with their yellowbelly 100% het clown offspring ...
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/PICT9430.jpg
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps991c0254.jpg

Lots to learn still but I hardly believe het clown is a recessed trait ... low visual heterozygous trait I can believe, hidden recessive trait I don't buy.

Jerry, do you have any pictures of the hets vs non-hets at the same age?

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=998792 just perusing kingsnake, and that doesn't look like any bumblebee i've seen. a screaming het, imho.

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Originally Posted by nykea

Jerry, do you have any pictures of the hets vs non-hets at the same age?

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The mom hasn't changed too much in color since she was the same size as the daughter yb het.
This is her at 19 months old, sort of close to the same age as the yb het daughter is in the mom daughter pic.
She's a little darker at 4 years old now, but she was never even close to as bright as the yb het daughter.

http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...4/PICT4230.jpg