Ball python hasnt eaten in year 1/2

Well normal female hasn't eaten in a year and a half. I Have been force feeding her for a while now. I try not to stress her out too much though. I am ready to give up. I have tried changing cages,fluctuating temps and humidity, braining rats, braining mice. Temps/Humidity are currently stable for about 3 months now with no success :(......She has a scale issue that shes had for a looooonnnngggg time. I went to the vet and they gave me baytril. she is still on it and her scale issue is all cleared up she is gonna stop injections this week. I need suggestions? Im in california so AFS are illegal.:colbert: But seriously i will try ANYTHING!!!! Thanks in advance :):P:D;)

Did the vet do a stool sample? No internal or external parasites? If you're sure of her health & provenance & your husbandry is absolutely on the mark, I'd either offer live (mice, rats,...?) or sell/re-home her to someone that could offer her soft furs if they're okay taking on the challenge she seems to be. Was she a wild caught import animal or where did you get her? And how old is she?

When you say force feeding what exactly do you mean? What is the technique that you're using to "force feed" and was this recommended by the vet? How long have you been force feeding her? What are you using for heat and how are you measuring your temps and humidity? What are the "steady" temps and humidity at right now? Has the vet told you what the scale issue is? Pictures of the scales would also probably help or explain what you're seeing. Sorry for all the questions but right now trying to pinpoint the problem is like taking a shot in the dark.

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Originally Posted by youbeyouibei

Did the vet do a stool sample? No internal or external parasites? If you're sure of her health & provenance & your husbandry is absolutely on the mark, I'd either offer live (mice, rats,...?) or sell/re-home her to someone that could offer her soft furs if they're okay taking on the challenge she seems to be. Was she a wild caught import animal or where did you get her? And how old is she?

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No the vet didnt think it was necessary to do so. No neither. Ive offered live too. I have spent so much money on vet appointments i would rather take on the challenge. She was sold to me as a captive bred. She is 2009 female. Thanks :)

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Originally Posted by BlueMoonExotics

When you say force feeding what exactly do you mean? What is the technique that you're using to "force feed" and was this recommended by the vet? How long have you been force feeding her? What are you using for heat and how are you measuring your temps and humidity? What are the "steady" temps and humidity at right now? Has the vet told you what the scale issue is? Pictures of the scales would also probably help or explain what you're seeing. Sorry for all the questions but right now trying to pinpoint the problem is like taking a shot in the dark.

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I mean i put the baby (f/t) rat (easier with smaller prey) in her mouth if she accepts it i will give her another. She usually never accepts it. If she spits it out i push it farther down until she accepts it. The vet force fed once and showed me how its done. She said that i should use this technique if i feel its mandatory. I have been force feeding once she hit a year without eating. I offer regular food every week. I force feed once every 2 months. I use a heat mat that is monitored with a repti-temp 5000R. Right now humidity is 57% and temp is 84. Yes she has but it is some weird word. (i dont remember lol) currently i dont have a way too take a picture but once i get my new phone (later today) i will.... Thanks :)

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Originally Posted by Jonas

I mean i put the baby (f/t) rat (easier with smaller prey) in her mouth if she accepts it i will give her another. She usually never accepts it. If she spits it out i push it farther down until she accepts it. The vet force fed once and showed me how its done. She said that i should use this technique if i feel its mandatory. I have been force feeding once she hit a year without eating. I offer regular food every week. I force feed once every 2 months. I use a heat mat that is monitored with a repti-temp 5000R. Right now humidity is 57% and temp is 84. Yes she has but it is some weird word. (i dont remember lol) currently i dont have a way too take a picture but once i get my new phone (later today) i will.... Thanks :)

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A lot of us provide a heat gradient-- a 90-92F hot spot and an 80-82F cool end. It might be worth trying out a gradient to see if she likes it better than one constant temperature.

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Originally Posted by liv

A lot of us provide a heat gradient-- a 90-92F hot spot and an 80-82F cool end. It might be worth trying out a gradient to see if she likes it better than one constant temperature.

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Yeah, if that's her hot spot temp, you need to bump it up to 90-92 and make sure she still has a cool end as well with hides on both ends. Snakes sometimes will refuse to eat if the temps are too low.

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Originally Posted by rocknhorse76

Yeah, if that's her hot spot temp, you need to bump it up to 90-92 and make sure she still has a cool end as well with hides on both ends. Snakes sometimes will refuse to eat if the temps are too low.

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the temp that i said is the overall temp/ air temp in cage :)

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Originally Posted by Jonas

I mean i put the baby (f/t) rat (easier with smaller prey) in her mouth if she accepts it i will give her another.

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Ah ok, from what I've seen on these forums, that would be considered assist feeding. Does the snake have both a cool side and hot spot with identical hides on both sides? Hot spot should be about 90. You said in your last post that the temp you gave was the overall air temp of the cage but ball pythons need belly heat to digest their food. I'm not sure I've heard of a repti-temp 5000R but I'm guessing it's some kind of thermostat? If it is then where is the probe located that measures the temps?

What type of enclosure is she in? What are you using to measure temps?

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Originally Posted by BlueMoonExotics

Ah ok, from what I've seen on these forums, that would be considered assist feeding. Does the snake have both a cool side and hot spot with identical hides on both sides? Hot spot should be about 90. You said in your last post that the temp you gave was the overall air temp of the cage but ball pythons need belly heat to digest their food. I'm not sure I've heard of a repti-temp 5000R but I'm guessing it's some kind of thermostat? If it is then where is the probe located that measures the temps?

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yes she has a hot spot and a cool side. But no identical hides. i kept her in a rack for a while but now she is just in a rack tub. Yup its a thermostat. the probe chills in between the substrate.

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

What type of enclosure is she in? What are you using to measure temps?

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She is in a rack tub. look at my other comments for your answer :)

The only other thing I can think of that is obvious from your posts is this mysterious scale problem. As others have said, I would make sure your temps are about 90 for her belly heat. If you can find what the diagnosis was then maybe someone else on here has some experience with it. Any ill animal will often have eating problems. Considering ball pythons are notorious for going off feed for long periods of time for what is seemingly no reason at all, I'm sure that an ongoing illness wouldn't help that situation. Hopefully someone can think of something that you can try that will help you. I hope she starts eating for you soon though. That is a long time to not eat on her own.

Give her some hides or move her to a smaller tub. Just because your other snakes might do fine in the setup they're in, doesn't mean she feels secure there. What kind of substrate is she on? Have you tried something "fluffier" like aspen? If your ambient temp is 84deg, what is your hot spot? That is a pretty warm ambient and doesn't give much gradient if you also have a hot spot in the tub. Have you tried leaving the F/T or a live rat pup in overnight without disturbing her?

Have you offered live?

What is her weight ??

how is she outside of her tank ?

Have you attempted to feed outside of her tub ?

My normal loves to eat then run to his tree (Cool Side) he climbs it and chills everyonce and a while he will feed from the tree its cool to see

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Originally Posted by Jonas

She is in a rack tub. look at my other comments for your answer :)

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If you are relying on the ReptiTemp as your only way of measuring temps, you need to buy a decent digital thermometer. No matter what thermostat you have, you still need a thermometer to verify the temps, and the ReptiTemp isn't known for its accuracy so there is no way I would trust that as the only temp measurement. In order for us to help you, we need an accurate measurement of the hot and cool side temps. If you have a snake that is giving you this much trouble with feeding, it really makes me suspect that there is something about the husbandry that needs to change.

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

Give her some hides or move her to a smaller tub. Just because your other snakes might do fine in the setup they're in, doesn't mean she feels secure there. What kind of substrate is she on? Have you tried something "fluffier" like aspen? If your ambient temp is 84deg, what is your hot spot? That is a pretty warm ambient and doesn't give much gradient if you also have a hot spot in the tub. Have you tried leaving the F/T or a live rat pup in overnight without disturbing her?

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ok ill get her another hide. Moved her to a smaller tub. she is on paper towel. yes i have tried aspen and eco-earth. My hot spot is 89. Should i lower ambient temps? yes i have tried leaving it in there. when i come back in the morning. the rat/mouse is usually bloodied up from getting bit. She is very aggressive.

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Originally Posted by Emmastaff

Have you offered live?

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yes

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Originally Posted by Jonas

ok ill get her another hide. Moved her to a smaller tub. she is on paper towel. yes i have tried aspen and eco-earth. My hot spot is 89. Should i lower ambient temps? yes i have tried leaving it in there. when i come back in the morning. the rat/mouse is usually bloodied up from getting bit. She is very aggressive.

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yes

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Hot spot sounds good, but yes, I would drop ambient about 4 degrees. Give her a week in her new environment, and try a live rat pup overnight. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by ExotixTowing

What is her weight ??

how is she outside of her tank ?

Have you attempted to feed outside of her tub ?

My normal loves to eat then run to his tree (Cool Side) he climbs it and chills everyonce and a while he will feed from the tree its cool to see

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She just does the same thing. She defensively strikes it. Shes about 1500 grams

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

If you are relying on the ReptiTemp as your only way of measuring temps, you need to buy a decent digital thermometer. No matter what thermostat you have, you still need a thermometer to verify the temps, and the ReptiTemp isn't known for its accuracy so there is no way I would trust that as the only temp measurement. In order for us to help you, we need an accurate measurement of the hot and cool side temps. If you have a snake that is giving you this much trouble with feeding, it really makes me suspect that there is something about the husbandry that needs to change.

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Ok. I came on here for suggestions. If you feel im doing something wrong...tell me. I can take constructive criticism. What do you recommend i buy for her?

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

Hot spot sounds good, but yes, I would drop ambient about 4 degrees. Give her a week in her new environment, and try a live rat pup overnight. Good luck!

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ok sounds good. How should i go on with dropping the ambient temp?:):P

What I did when my ball python refused food, was I started assist feeding her small pieces of raw chicken. This seemed to pick up her appetite, so after a few months of feeding her just chicken, I switched to scenting pinkie mice. She ate it right away! And the second pinkie I offered her wasn't even scented.
This is what worked for me, but every snake is different...
Good luck!

My almost ten year old male normal just came off a 9 month feeding strike. He always looked and acted fine, barely lost any weight, and my husbandry was spot on. After trying nearly all prey items in nearly every way you can offer them, he shed a few weeks ago, and just decided to start eating. Taking one medium rat a week again like he always has.

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Originally Posted by Jonas

ok sounds good. How should i go on with dropping the ambient temp?:):P

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That depends, how are you heating the air? ;) Lamp/CHE, or is that the room temp? If it's the room temp without any supplemental heat (space heater, etc.), I might try just taking away her hot spot and giving her 84-86deg ambient. I do this with my snake room in the summer because it naturally gets that warm in there. If you have a lamp/CHE, you can get a rheostat (dimmer) and dial it down, or a lower wattage bulb.

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

That depends, how are you heating the air? ;) Lamp/CHE, or is that the room temp? If it's the room temp without any supplemental heat (space heater, etc.), I might try just taking away her hot spot and giving her 84-86deg ambient. I do this with my snake room in the summer because it naturally gets that warm in there. If you have a lamp/CHE, you can get a rheostat (dimmer) and dial it down, or a lower wattage bulb.

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My room is just normally extremely hot. lol. Ill take away the hot spot and see how she does. Thanks for having such a fast response time :)

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Originally Posted by Jonas

My room is just normally extremely hot. lol. Ill take away the hot spot and see how she does. Thanks for having such a fast response time :)

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That's what happens when I'm avoiding house and office work. Good luck with her and keep us posted. I'd also only try offering once a week for the next few weeks before attempting any more switches. :)

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Originally Posted by Jonas

Ok. I came on here for suggestions. If you feel im doing something wrong...tell me. I can take constructive criticism. What do you recommend i buy for her?

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Firestorm clearly states you need to buy a decent digital thermometer to verify your temperatures. Thermostats are notoriously inaccurate. So much so that a lot of them even state as much in the instructions! Im very surprised your vet hasnt been through this with you!? Do you have a thermometer? I keep all my snakes with belly heat around 90- 91F and ambients of 78 - 82f. Works great for me, ive taken on a few non feeders, and some of them are now my best feeders! All mine eat frozen/thawed. I warm the rats in hot water for about 30 min - hour. I then dip the head in just boiled water for 10 seconds. If the snake is showing interest but not striking after 40 seconds or so ill reheat the rats head in boiling water again. most of the time this works. If not i usually have a day old chick on hand to scent the rat with. This rarely fails!

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Originally Posted by dprballs

Firestorm clearly states you need to buy a decent digital thermometer to verify your temperatures. Thermostats are notoriously inaccurate. So much so that a lot of them even state as much in the instructions! Im very surprised your vet hasnt been through this with you!? Do you have a thermometer? I keep all my snakes with belly heat around 90- 91F and ambients of 78 - 82f. Works great for me, ive taken on a few non feeders, and some of them are now my best feeders! All mine eat frozen/thawed. I warm the rats in hot water for about 30 min - hour. I then dip the head in just boiled water for 10 seconds. If the snake is showing interest but not striking after 40 seconds or so ill reheat the rats head in boiling water again. most of the time this works. If not i usually have a day old chick on hand to scent the rat with. This rarely fails!

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Chill a bit. Jonas took it as constructive, and asked what he should buy. It's easy to say "Get something better", but what is better? The snarky comment about the vet wasn't really necessary, either. He has stated clearly how he is measuring temps, and what they are. He also noted that she is striking defensively, which doesn't point to prey being under-heated.

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

Chill a bit. Jonas took it as constructive, and asked what he should buy. It's easy to say "Get something better", but what is better? The snarky comment about the vet wasn't really necessary, either. He has stated clearly how he is measuring temps, and what they are. He also noted that she is striking defensively, which doesn't point to prey being under-heated.

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sorry i didnt mean to offend.....i dont know if im missing something here.....Jonas is using a thermostat to set his temperature with out verifying it with a thermometer. Fire storm suggested getting a decent digital thermometer. Jonas didnt seem to understand so i reiterated it. Its not a snarky comment about the vet. Im surprised the vet didnt check that Jonas was measuring his temperatures reliably. Whats the problem with that?? I mean the snake hasnt eaten for 18 months and well no one really knows what temperature its being kept at !! I should think until this is sorted its pointless doing anything else yet people are still talking about changing temps. Jonas needs to know where he(or she?) is at right now with regards to temperature!!

E2a Defensive strike could well mean the prey is under heated. I could dangle an ice cube in front of some my snakes and theyd strike defensively. They certainly dont think its food

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Originally Posted by dprballs

sorry i didnt mean to offend.....i dont know if im missing something here.....Jonas is using a thermostat to set his temperature with out verifying it with a thermometer. Fire storm suggested getting a decent digital thermometer. Jonas didnt seem to understand so i reiterated it. Its not a snarky comment about the vet. Im surprised the vet didnt check that Jonas was measuring his temperatures reliably. Whats the problem with that?? I mean the snake hasnt eaten for 18 months and well no one really knows what temperature its being kept at !! I should think until this is sorted its pointless doing anything else yet people are still talking about changing temps. Jonas needs to know where he(or she?) is at right now with regards to temperature!!

E2a Defensive strike could well mean the prey is under heated. I could dangle an ice cube in front of some my snakes and theyd strike defensively. They certainly dont think its food

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I obviously read a "tone" that wasn't intended, my apologies. :)

easily done on the internet. Its not what you say its how you say it. And i guess no one knows just how ur saying it on the internet lol :)

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Originally Posted by Jonas

Ok. I came on here for suggestions. If you feel im doing something wrong...tell me. I can take constructive criticism. What do you recommend i buy for her?

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Sorry, just saw this or I would have responded sooner. You just need a relatively inexpensive digital thermometer. The type of thermostat that you have is certainly better than nothing, but it isn't accurate enough to be trusted without using a thermometer to double check the temps. Even when we are using Herpstats (much more accurate), we still verify the temps with a thermometer. Here are some examples of the kind of thermometer I'm suggesting:

http://firestormreptiles.com/weblog/...rmometers.html

As far as problem feeders, here is what I do (assuming temps are correct) I use sort of deep cypress mulch for bedding and black out/cover the sides of the tub. I provide hides and clutter up the tub with crumpled paper. I also limit handling to the minimum required for water changes and other maintenance. Basically, the snake is left alone in the dark, in the hopes that this will eliminate stress. After a week or so of alone time, I offer live prey, but something smaller than normal, like a decent sized rat pup/ weanling for an adult. I just put the prey in, cover everything back up and go away for a bit. I offer no more often than every 7 days. This method has worked well for me in the past.

Also, I can't remember if this has already been mentioned, but you may want to treat her for internal parasites. Sometimes that will kick them back into eating.

Adding some thoughts/questions to the discussion:

If the snake isn't really losing any weight and is acting normally(aside from the scale issue??), could this be a feed strike? I remember seeing a thread about longest feed strikes and the longest in the list was 14-18 months. Obviously get the husbandry right and give the snake some time to settle to the changes and from the scale issue then play the waiting/patient game.

What was the scale issue? I didn't see it in the posts if there was an answer to that question earlier.


Good luck, hope she comes out of this soon for you. :)

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

Sorry, just saw this or I would have responded sooner. You just need a relatively inexpensive digital thermometer. The type of thermostat that you have is certainly better than nothing, but it isn't accurate enough to be trusted without using a thermometer to double check the temps. Even when we are using Herpstats (much more accurate), we still verify the temps with a thermometer. Here are some examples of the kind of thermometer I'm suggesting:

http://firestormreptiles.com/weblog/...rmometers.html

As far as problem feeders, here is what I do (assuming temps are correct) I use sort of deep cypress mulch for bedding and black out/cover the sides of the tub. I provide hides and clutter up the tub with crumpled paper. I also limit handling to the minimum required for water changes and other maintenance. Basically, the snake is left alone in the dark, in the hopes that this will eliminate stress. After a week or so of alone time, I offer live prey, but something smaller than normal, like a decent sized rat pup/ weanling for an adult. I just put the prey in, cover everything back up and go away for a bit. I offer no more often than every 7 days. This method has worked well for me in the past.

Also, I can't remember if this has already been mentioned, but you may want to treat her for internal parasites. Sometimes that will kick them back into eating.

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Would a temp gun work for a thermometer or is it better to have a thermometer. i have a temp gun :D. And thanks im gonna cover that thang up right now ;)

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Originally Posted by Pyrate81

Adding some thoughts/questions to the discussion:

If the snake isn't really losing any weight and is acting normally(aside from the scale issue??), could this be a feed strike? I remember seeing a thread about longest feed strikes and the longest in the list was 14-18 months. Obviously get the husbandry right and give the snake some time to settle to the changes and from the scale issue then play the waiting/patient game.

What was the scale issue? I didn't see it in the posts if there was an answer to that question earlier.


Good luck, hope she comes out of this soon for you. :)

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Ive forgotten the name of the scale issue. I am also taking her off the medicine because i had someone tell me this makes them stop eating. Thanks i hope so too.

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Originally Posted by Jonas

Would a temp gun work for a thermometer or is it better to have a thermometer. i have a temp gun :D. And thanks im gonna cover that thang up right now ;)

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do you mean an infra red thermometer? with the laser pointer? Thats perfectly acceptable if your checking your temps with that!! Its always nice to have 2 different thermometers imo in case one gives incorrect readings! id get a probe too just in case!!

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Originally Posted by Jonas

Ive forgotten the name of the scale issue. I am also taking her off the medicine because i had someone tell me this makes them stop eating. Thanks i hope so too.

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While antibiotics can decrease or kill appetite, I would continue with the full course recommended by the vet. Stopping early creates drug-resistant bacteria.

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Originally Posted by Jonas

Would a temp gun work for a thermometer or is it better to have a thermometer. i have a temp gun :D. And thanks im gonna cover that thang up right now ;)

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I like to have both the probe type thermometer so I can check temps without opening the tub (when I have the tub covered I put the probe on the hotspot and the display outside the cover) and the temp gun for spot checking.

If she's aggressive/defensively striking the food it sounds like she's probably stressing out with all the assist feeding / antibiotics to be honest! As a 1500g adult she isnt going to suffer from periods of not eating, so as long as temps and everything else are up to scratch imo your best bet is to stop the force feeding and only try a normal frozen/live/whatever you do every 7-10 days and hopefully she might chill out and start eating properly again. From my experience, the temptation to chase her round the tub with a dead rat every night tends to only make things worse!

Have had a 1000g female not eat for 10 months, tried everything and one day she just decided to eat again. She only lost about 100g in weight over that time. BPs are annoying as hell when it comes to eating, just dont let it frustrate you, hunger strikes are VERY common.