Feeding new baby monitor

My son picked up a savannah monitor saturday, and today he is feeding it super worms I told him to let it settle in but he can't hardly do it. So he has eat a couple superworms how often should he eat and we have meal worms and super worms.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/03/5ema4a9a.jpg

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

You do realize the care, food and housing requirements needed for a lizard like this, right?

This lizard will get up right around 4 feet and eat like a horse. It will need an enclosure 8x4x4 as a minimum. At this early stage it should be being fed daily as much as it wants. Crickets are the usual food source at this age but roaches such as B. Dubia are even better and you can start up a breeder colony to help feed him. Make sure to dust these with Calcium + D3. He needs a basking spot of 130-145 surface temperature measured with a temperature gun, not a thermometer. The best way to achieve this is with low wattage (45-60 Watt) halogen flood lights (Not spot lights). A bank of 3 should be enough for an adult but as few as 1 will work for a baby. You should also get a digital thermometer / hygrometer combo to keep tabs on the air temperature and the humidity level (which should be at around 60%). The substrate should be a deep sandy soil mix that holds a burrow. When these guys are full size they need around 2 feet of burrow-able substrate for humidity and nesting purposes regardless of if there is a male present should it turn out to be a female. This is still necessary for a male however. When your monitor is large enough you can start adding rodents to the diet slowly and not in high quantities. For the average keeper too many rodents in the diet is a bad idea although in the proper setup there isn't a problem with them. Another note is that you shouldn't be handling him at all right now. Savs freak easy and if you hold it all the time it's going to associate you with being a threat and will hide constantly. Buy a pair of feeder tongs and use them at every feeding once he is willing to take food from them. If he doesn't go for this right away don't worry and just keep some live crickets in the enclosure.

These guys are a specialized animal that will die slowly if you don't take care of it right and won't show any signs until it's almost too late. This animal is going to be a huge responsibility and is not for a beginner. I know they look cute this small but they get huge and a bite from an adult will most likely require stitches. They can become a great pet but they just aren't for everybody.

Thanks for the info. We are prepared. As for handling my son has the lizard eating from his hands.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

Just my 0.02 here, but I hope when you said eating out of your sons hand you really meant off tongs or something. Ignoring the fact that it should get some settle in time, having one of these things mistaking a finger for food will be merely annoying now. Later it could be a big problem. Savs, and all monitors really, are much smarter than the average bp, and bad habits learned now could be carried a long time. Heck, I have an ackie that has drawn blood because she got too excited and couldn't wait for me to lower the tongs to her. Thankfully her little pinholes aren,t a big deal.

Definitely don't feed it by hand.

Good luck

That would teach it to associate food with your hand and get you bit right.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

Yep, and a healthy sav is very aggressive towards its food. I've seen video of them jumping completly off the ground to grab food when they get excited. Tong feeding keeps it less likely they will mistake your pinkie for a rat pinkie, for example.

He has tongs for feeding and a small bowl in the enclosure, but he has been carrying this monitor on his shirt and has it eating already. It seems to be doing fine and it ate a piece of chicken from my sons fingers. My son has a way with creatures and it seems the little lizard is comfortable with him already. He is the same way with our snakes and we have no feeding issues with them either.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

Check out the Cera and Littlefoot thread by Infernalis...hes one of the go to guys for Sav Monitor care and knowledge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpF_IEkuP5M

Not an adult and she is the most docile monitor out there when no food is involved. If you raise yours hand feeding then you will have a problem when it gets bigger. At the young age that yours is at it is critically important to keep the husbandry perfect. In the future you can have it out on occasion but right now it is not a great idea. It needs the humidity and heat provided inside its enclosure which is not available outside in the rest of your house. With an established older monitor it's not going to kill it to be out for a while but for a baby it very well might.

Thank you for the posts. He thinks its cute to feed it by hand now but won't be a good idea in the long run.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

Conditioning a monitor to feed from your hand(as well as teaching your son that its something ok to do) is a HUGE mistake! I hate to be the one to put it this way.. but it needs to be said for the sake of the lizard and your son.... as these creatures grow and, assuming proper husbandry, and mature they develop an astounding feeding drive that will not take the time to differentiate between proffered food items and the fingers/hand/arm/ face of the person proffering it...honest.
As was previously stated, limit any handling at this age. While it may seem like he is totally calm and at ease with your son, monitors shut down some in response to stress. Give it at least a month of acclimation before turning it into the latest lizard on his shoulder. And if you live in a cool climate, exposure to such temps can very well prove lethal, most often by slow respitory infection and resultant decline. If the sav is kept properly( ie access to high temp basking spots, good hide zones, as much food as it wants, daily, a thermocline from mid 70's to the basking spot of at least 150 in a cage big enough to support all this) its metabolism will tend to make it much more active thus less apt to be willing to just chill on a shoulder trying to get warm.
And yes monitors are amazingly intelligent reptiles. They learn. And given the chance will teach you things you never imagined. They can be great animals to keep in captivity given you provide for their somewhat more demanding needs. But PLEASE recrain from any future handfeeding. It usually ends up with someone getting bit then the lizard languishes in a cage because the person becomes afraid /indifferent to the lizard. Tragic all around.

Guy

Thanks for the advice. I think we have the husbandry down pretty good and the monitor is growing fast, we live in Ga. and this time of year its hot and humid.
He has slowed up on the handling and when he does feed it he just drops the crickets and puts super worms in a food bowl.
1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

Yeah you should definitely tong feed. After a while you will condition him/her to only have a feeding response when a shiny metallic object is around.

Make sure your son stops handling him for now. The sav really needs a month and a half of hands off. You run the risk especially at such a young age of creating a flighty/aggressive animal by handling too quickly. Remember this is an animal that will be in your life for at least 10 years with proper care. So keep it slow and build trust on a very gradual scale. After a month and a half you can handle the animal inside the cage only. Keep that up for another 3-4months and then you can handle outside. You have to respect this animals wishes as well. If he hisses or shows any indication that he is done with the interaction, then he is done, let him go.

Also, stay away from the chicken. The vast majority of this animals diet is invertebrates, even lean chicken and turkey is too much fat content and will lead to obesity.

I may have missed it but what kind of setup is he in? Pics?

If you have any questions at all feel free to PM me.

This is his home until he gets bigger I just misted the tank before I decided to take pictures. I'm putting another heat lamp on the tank this weekend.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/21/u4epy5y2.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/21/ju6u5una.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/21/3epuma5a.jpg

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

Ok setup for now but that will probably only last him for 3-4 months but I'm sure everyone has said that already.

My suggestions would be to cover the top partially with plywood, add another 4-6 inches of a 70% dirt 30% sand mixture, put 2 50 watt flood lights in, 1 UVB 5.0 bulb, and for now black out 3 sides of the cage with a towel, 4 sides would be better. 75wts is pretty much max for any tank that I would recommend and honestly its not needed if you use multiple 50 watt floods. The key is to just elevate basking spots closer to the light to raise temps like your doing. I'd recommend going out and finding a large creek rock (bowling ball-watermelon size), sanitizing it and throwing that in there. That will retain heat alot better then the wood, and its safer. Also, if you dont already have them, pick up a PE temp gun (pro exotics) and two accurite thermometers (walmart).

Thanks for the info we knew we had to make some changes and now we know what to do. That's why I love this forum I've learned so much from you folks. He is growing very fast.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Ok setup for now but that will probably only last him for 3-4 months but I'm sure everyone has said that already.

My suggestions would be to cover the top partially with plywood, add another 4-6 inches of a 70% dirt 30% sand mixture, put 2 50 watt flood lights in, 1 UVB 5.0 bulb, and for now black out 3 sides of the cage with a towel, 4 sides would be better. 75wts is pretty much max for any tank that I would recommend and honestly its not needed if you use multiple 50 watt floods. The key is to just elevate basking spots closer to the light to raise temps like your doing. I'd recommend going out and finding a large creek rock (bowling ball-watermelon size), sanitizing it and throwing that in there. That will retain heat alot better then the wood, and its safer. Also, if you dont already have them, pick up a PE temp gun (pro exotics) and two accurite thermometers (walmart).

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I'm curious as to what experience you have with varanids that you claim this will work for a few months?? Anyone who's had any experience knows this simply isn't the case.

Ironpython, I'm going to treat you just the same as any other random newbie monitor keeper- again because I care more about the animal than I do your ego, pride, or the like.

Your killing your monitor. Lets go over why everything you are doing is bad. Step by step.

Your cage is a joke. Fish tanks are for.... *drumroll* FISH!!! They are not suitable for monitors in any capacity. They do not hold adequate heat/moisture for the animal to grow properly. It simply isn't possible in a glass/plexi fish tank. On top of the environmental issues- you have to realize- 4 open sides/open top = stress. You may not think he's stressed, but he likely is. He's a lizard not a dog.

Handling.. Again, stress, your son is picking this animal up in the most vulnerable time in its life and carrying him around in his shirt. Not only do you not have proper temperatures outside of the cage (or in it, with your cage), but you're stressing him, and only leading to future problems later in his life. They can/will hold grudges if you force handle them as youngsters, and can turn into some nasty adults.

Hand feeding. Oh boy where to go here! I have 2 monitors at the moment, I've raised dozens to adulthood. Just because you can now doesn't mean anything. Monitors are tough little tanks, sometimes they will endure the stress of hand feeding- just so they don't starve to death. A healthy hungry monitor is an absolute mess to say the least. Mine see me walking to the enclosure with food, and start leaping around, clawing at the doors, biting everything that moves. Surely you don't want this to be your sons fingers? An adult sav can and will do some decent damage to his hand if he gets a good grip on it. It's absolutely a bad idea, don't let him do it because he thinks its cute. Educate him properly.

Sell that aquarium. Honestly it's not expensive to build a 6x3x3 or 8x4x4 plywood cage and seal it. Toss in 2' of sand/dirt substrate to burrow in, keep it hot and humid, basking temps of 130-140F are ideal. Go hands off and feed a varied diet. You'll be shocked as to how your monitor starts to behave when it's kept properly, and how large it will get in a short amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Dehlol

I'm curious as to what experience you have with varanids that you claim this will work for a few months?? Anyone who's had any experience knows this simply isn't the case.

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One Varanus Exanthematicus in perfect condition at 4 years of age. Goes through routine exams by Dr. Scott Stahl here in northern VA and everything checks out perfect. Also, I'd like to point out that asking me what experience I have is irrelevant to my arguments as that is an ad hominem argument and completely illogical.

And what I meant was, assuming he makes the changes I've stated, his monitor will be ok in a cage that size for 3-4 months. To me it looks like a 20 gallon which is a bit small but a 30 gallon tank will last 5 months so long as it meets these requirements. Properly covered with plywood, misted regularly, inside accessories in tandem with 50wt floods and 5.0 uvb provide 115-130F basking, blacked out sides, and substrate is deep enough for monitor to fully burrow allowing them to regulate humidity as they see fit.

Yes, in a perfect world everyone would go out and build a plywood 6'3'3' for their hatchlings but it just doesnt happen. He is also perfectly aware that he needs to upgrade his cage, he has 3 months to do that if he makes the changes I've stated.

Also, monitors are tough as nails so I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that his animal is dieing from being in that setup. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way advocating he leaves the cage as is because the monitor "can" survive in those conditions. As keepers we need to be responsible for what we get into.

OK we made some changes to his terrible environment. I have a question about calcium supplements should I use with or without d3

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

I want to say his tank is not a fish tank and its a forty gallon and its in my garage in south Georgia where our humidity is very high and the temps are as well although I do have a 60 w flood a 75 w red basking light and a 5.0 uvb and the temps are checked with a Fluke temp gun. We are doing something right because he eats like a mad man.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

I would dust everything with D3 and calcium. I use Repashy Calcium Plus with all of my animals and it works great. It is very important to provide D3 until you purchase a UVB bulb (not sure if you have already). Even with the UVB I would still provide D3, monitors grow so fast they really use alot of nutrients to attain that size so quickly. Exercise is very important as well. Within the first year they double in weight monthly so you have to make sure their bones are getting everything they need.

Calcium + D3 is what you need to be dusting with. UVB is not necessary although there is nothing to suggest that there is anything wrong with adding it. Most monitor keepers don't use UVB since the diet of these monsters allows them to not need it at all and it has been proven time and time again. They won't double in weight monthly the entire first year as stated above but they certainly do grow like weeds when properly supported. In a year in captivity a male should be around 3 feet and a female should be a little over 2 feet.

Keep an eye on the ambient temps if the enclosure is in the garage during the summer since it can get pretty hot and if you have an exceptionally hot day it could be deadly.

I have a uvb and started him on calcium supplement. Temp gun has hot side 130 and cool side side 80 ish primary diet is meal worms crickets and super worms. My rat racks are in the garage also so on really hot days I turn on a window unit ac He has plenty of hiding places in his tank and when he gets too big he will move into a big plywood enclosure.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

One Varanus Exanthematicus in perfect condition at 4 years of age. Goes through routine exams by Dr. Scott Stahl here in northern VA and everything checks out perfect. Also, I'd like to point out that asking me what experience I have is irrelevant to my arguments as that is an ad hominem argument and completely illogical.

And what I meant was, assuming he makes the changes I've stated, his monitor will be ok in a cage that size for 3-4 months. To me it looks like a 20 gallon which is a bit small but a 30 gallon tank will last 5 months so long as it meets these requirements. Properly covered with plywood, misted regularly, inside accessories in tandem with 50wt floods and 5.0 uvb provide 115-130F basking, blacked out sides, and substrate is deep enough for monitor to fully burrow allowing them to regulate humidity as they see fit.

Yes, in a perfect world everyone would go out and build a plywood 6'3'3' for their hatchlings but it just doesnt happen. He is also perfectly aware that he needs to upgrade his cage, he has 3 months to do that if he makes the changes I've stated.

Also, monitors are tough as nails so I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that his animal is dieing from being in that setup. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way advocating he leaves the cage as is because the monitor "can" survive in those conditions. As keepers we need to be responsible for what we get into.

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A bosc at 4-5 months old if healthy will be over a foot long. You want to put a foot long monitor in a 20-30 gallon fish tank? You've proven me correct. You have no business giving monitor advice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ironpython

I want to say his tank is not a fish tank and its a forty gallon and its in my garage in south Georgia where our humidity is very high and the temps are as well although I do have a 60 w flood a 75 w red basking light and a 5.0 uvb and the temps are checked with a Fluke temp gun. We are doing something right because he eats like a mad man.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

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If it's a glass aquarium- it's a fish tank. Fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

And what I meant was, assuming he makes the changes I've stated, his monitor will be ok in a cage that size for 3-4 months. To me it looks like a 20 gallon which is a bit small but a 30 gallon tank will last 5 months so long as it meets these requirements. Properly covered with plywood, misted regularly, inside accessories in tandem with 50wt floods and 5.0 uvb provide 115-130F basking, blacked out sides, and substrate is deep enough for monitor to fully burrow allowing them to regulate humidity as they see fit.

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UVB isn't needed in any way. 115 is far too low of a basking temperature. 130-145 allows the monitor to digest nearly anything. Under heating means that the monitor will be needing extra time to digest food leaving it forced to stay under the heat longer and causing it to end up slow and lethargic. A tank does not give the proper heat gradient no matter how you slice it. The only way to truly get a proper heat gradient is with more size to the enclosure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Also, monitors are tough as nails so I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that his animal is dieing from being in that setup. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way advocating he leaves the cage as is because the monitor "can" survive in those conditions. As keepers we need to be responsible for what we get into.

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Monitors are not "tough as nails". They are a specialized animal that takes a long time to die in improper conditions. A healthy sav can live 10-15 years and yet the vast majority (99.9%) don't make it to the age of 5 because they are improperly housed and fed. Every moment in a bad setup reduces the life span of the animal. Is a single day going to take a year off of its life? No. Will 3-4 months be potentially damaging to it's long term health? Quite possibly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dehlol

A bosc at 4-5 months old if healthy will be over a foot long. You want to put a foot long monitor in a 20-30 gallon fish tank? You've proven me correct. You have no business giving monitor advice.

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Approximately 1.5 months old.
http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/...8/P5230077.jpg

5 months old.
http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1e5fc8e9.jpg

6.5 months old.
http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/...8/PA190286.jpg

Almost 15 months. (Current)
http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/...ps070752c3.jpg

This is my female so understand that a male will be growing quicker and reaching a larger size.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dehlol

If it's a glass aquarium- it's a fish tank. Fact.

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I agree. The term "fish tank" is given to any glass tank. It doesn't actually have to hold water for the term to apply.

Varanids in general are unique in that there are few (if any) variations on husbandry formulas.

For example - with ball pythons, you have a wide choice of methods to choose from when it comes to keeping them. You can keep them in a fish tank, you can keep them in a tub, you can keep them in a cage........

You can use wood substrates of your choosing, you can use paper towels, you can use kraft paper...........

You can use a light, you can use a heat panel, you can use belly heat and you can use back heat.

When they are smaller, a small enclosure is preferable.

With varanids (in general), the husbandry choices are narrower.

- Large enclosures are needed that simultaneously provide space, airflow, proper thermoregulation zones and security. Except for the youngest of juveniles, glass enclosures that do not provide enough humidity, enough security or a deep substrate are an unsuitable choice. When used for babies, glass tanks must be heavily modified to provide an acceptable habitat.

- A deep, diggable substrate that retains sufficient moisture. 6" is not deep. 8" is not deep. 12" is not deep when it comes to varanids.

- A hot spot of over 130 degrees, with the ability to find gradients between the cool end and the hot spot via a stack or other devices.

Most people who keep varanids do not keep them properly. These animals can hang on for a surprisingly long time under imperfect conditions. This does not mean that they are tough as nails. A trained eye can tell the difference in color, size and shape of a healthy monitor and one that is just making it.

Again, there a few choices when it comes to the basics with varanid care. It is critical that people understand this before they purchase on of these animals. A look at Adam's setup should give everyone an idea of what is involved from the get go. These are not animals to purchase on a whim. They require time, money, space and expertise to thrive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dehlol

A bosc at 4-5 months old if healthy will be over a foot long. You want to put a foot long monitor in a 20-30 gallon fish tank? You've proven me correct. You have no business giving monitor advice.



If it's a glass aquarium- it's a fish tank. Fact.

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I don't "want" to do anything. I'm telling the OP that he will be ok in the cage he is in for 3-4 months which is a 40 gallon if he makes the changes, which he has done. My savannah was in a 4' 4' 4' box at 5 months.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AdamL8

UVB isn't needed in any way. 115 is far too low of a basking temperature. 130-145 allows the monitor to digest nearly anything. Under heating means that the monitor will be needing extra time to digest food leaving it forced to stay under the heat longer and causing it to end up slow and lethargic. A tank does not give the proper heat gradient no matter how you slice it. The only way to truly get a proper heat gradient is with more size to the enclosure.



Monitors are not "tough as nails". They are a specialized animal that takes a long time to die in improper conditions. A healthy sav can live 10-15 years and yet the vast majority (99.9%) don't make it to the age of 5 because they are improperly housed and fed. Every moment in a bad setup reduces the life span of the animal. Is a single day going to take a year off of its life? No. Will 3-4 months be potentially damaging to it's long term health? Quite possibly.



Approximately 1.5 months old.


5 months old.


6.5 months old.


Almost 15 months. (Current)


This is my female so understand that a male will be growing quicker and reaching a larger size.



I agree. The term "fish tank" is given to any glass tank. It doesn't actually have to hold water for the term to apply.

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The research on the UVB is still up in the air, which is why I recommended he go with it, its better to be safe. Providing D3 through the diet may be enough but I really have no idea.

For a smaller savannah a bask spot of 115-130F is definitely ok so long as they have access to a full body bask. The "one light bulb" approach is not sufficient. For any monitor over one foot I would recommend the higher temperatures (130-140F).

Tanks definitely can provide the proper gradient 80F-95F if you enclose them with plywood (I use the PE-1 and the accurite thermostats to measure heat). You will get heat "leakage" from the glass but this is solved by adding multiple flood lights. I do agree with you though, it is definitely easier to maintain that heat gradient the larger the cage is and the more the materiels resist heat escape.

Monitors are definitely tough as nails and you need only to look at the vast distribution of Varanids to understand that. You can find them on just about every continent in many different types of habitats. Yes, they all specialize in those environments as you would expect with natural selection but their builds are all relatively similar for a reason, because they work in a multitude of harsh environments. Again, I am not saying that it is ethical to exploit this toughness in captivity and slack up on the care of these animals.

I agree about your improper conditions paragraph as well. I just dont see how what I have recommended is improper conditions.

If we want to use the term "fish tank" to mean any glass enclosure then we have to universalize that completely. So, are the 20' x 20' glass enclosures at some of the major zoos incapable of providing a proper environment for Varanids?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

The research on the UVB is still up in the air, which is why I recommended he go with it, its better to be safe. Providing D3 through the diet may be enough but I really have no idea.

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It's not really "up in the air". It has been proven time and time again that it is unnecessary. That being said, There is no downside to using it as far as we are aware. It's just an extra cost that may or may not help but is not going to harm the monitor to live without.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

For a smaller savannah a bask spot of 115-130F is definitely OK so long as they have access to a full body bask. The "one light bulb" approach is not sufficient. For any monitor over one foot I would recommend the higher temperatures (130-140F).

Tanks definitely can provide the proper gradient 80F-95F if you enclose them with plywood (I use the PE-1 and the accurite thermostats to measure heat). You will get heat "leakage" from the glass but this is solved by adding multiple flood lights. I do agree with you though, it is definitely easier to maintain that heat gradient the larger the cage is and the more the materials resist heat escape.

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In a 20-30 gallon tank 2 bulbs will be overheating it. This is where you require more space. If your basking spot covers the snout to vent then you are fine. The issue with larger wattage standard heat bulbs is that they dry out the air more so than low wattage directed heat bulbs such as halogen floods and the heat from them goes all over instead of where you want it. This was not something that you mentioned and surely knew but I figured it was good to add for anybody who reads through this and does not know it already. I disagree that 115 degrees is a sufficient basking temperature for any size Sav. I don't have anything specifically to reference for this but I know that they do make use of 130+ basking at all sizes and 130-145 will mean that the monitor can digest food faster and more efficiently so why not allow it to do so? This does not require adding more bulbs and overheating the small enclosure. Just raising or lowering the basking spot will do the trick. Going much higher than 150F would likely begin to get dangerous although I have read that they have been found to use basking sites as high as 155. I personally keep mine around 140-145 and would not go higher.

My concern with the fish tanks not providing the proper gradient is not just about them having the right temperature extremes as much as it is that they do not have the space for the gradient to be gradual at all. A large cage allows space at either end for the lowest temperature and the highest. You could have a proper gradient in an enclosure less than 8 feet but at 8 feet it is incredibly easy to do so. With a large enough glass tank that is properly modified it could be usable for a monitor indefinitely. However, It would most likely be cheaper and more effective to make it from wood. The cost of enough glass that is thick enough to make an all glass 8x4x4 would be insane. That doesn't include the logistics of keeping it all together with the weight of the dirt, mounting lights, and mounting a door of some type to open it. It just isn't feasible and since you would likely have to insulate it anyways what would be the point?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Monitors are definitely tough as nails and you need only to look at the vast distribution of Varanids to understand that. You can find them on just about every continent in many different types of habitats. Yes, they all specialize in those environments as you would expect with natural selection but their builds are all relatively similar for a reason, because they work in a multitude of harsh environments. Again, I am not saying that it is ethical to exploit this toughness in captivity and slack up on the care of these animals.

I agree about your improper conditions paragraph as well. I just don't see how what I have recommended is improper conditions.

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Monitors as a whole are indeed "tough as nails" but not in the way that your previous post had made it sound. We are specifically talking about Savannah Monitors in this instance and the fact that they are often housed incorrectly even though the owners think they have the husbandry perfect (not talking about the OP who is making an effort) because the monitor has not yet died or begun to show signs of health issues. These guys don't show any obvious signs until it is practically too late. What you recommended was not necessarily wrong and would be fine for a short time but parts of it would need to be changed to ensure the health of the monitor was not affected.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

If we want to use the term "fish tank" to mean any glass enclosure then we have to universalize that completely. So, are the 20' x 20' glass enclosures at some of the major zoos incapable of providing a proper environment for Varanids?

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Zoos are able to closely and expertly monitor (no pun intended) the health of their animals all day every day as it is their job to do so. They are extremely well equipped to regulate temperatures, humidity, and food intake. Their enclosures are usually a concrete and thick glass mix and are built to hold in heat and humidity. Standard fish tanks that are used in homes are very different from this and in a fresh from the factory state are not suitable for any monitor. That being said, they can be altered to be usable as I stated in one of the above responses.

Where have you found the research on the UVB?

I had previously thought that UVB wasn't necessary but in the last year ran across a few folks who have been using UVB with success. I personally just D3 every feeder that I throw in but I did notice more activity out of my Sav when I put a UVB in for several weeks. This is all anecdotal though of course.

I apologize for my lack of clarity in previous posts. I only meant that if the OP makes the changes I originally recommended that his Sav will be o-k until he completes his wooden build and of course sooner is better then later.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Where have you found the research on the UVB?

I had previously thought that UVB wasn't necessary but in the last year ran across a few folks who have been using UVB with success. I personally just D3 every feeder that I throw in but I did notice more activity out of my Sav when I put a UVB in for several weeks. This is all anecdotal though of course.

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I don't think that any formal study has ever been done on the effects of UVB on monitor lizards but I have read accounts from many well informed long term keepers on other forums who have successfully raised multiple monitors of different species from hatchlings to adults with no UVB. I don't actually know of anyone who uses UVB other than Infernalis who got UVB tube bulbs on sale cheaper than fluorescent tube bulbs although they are too high to really be giving off any benefit. I think that bright lighting contributes a fair bit to activity so that could possibly be the benefit that you were seeing. Regardless, Extra activity does not constitute it being necessary although if you have the bulbs there's no reason to not use them.

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Originally Posted by AdamL8

I don't think that any formal study has ever been done on the effects of UVB on monitor lizards but I have read accounts from many well informed long term keepers on other forums who have successfully raised multiple monitors of different species from hatchlings to adults with no UVB. I don't actually know of anyone who uses UVB other than Infernalis who got UVB tube bulbs on sale cheaper than fluorescent tube bulbs although they are too high to really be giving off any benefit. I think that bright lighting contributes a fair bit to activity so that could possibly be the benefit that you were seeing. Regardless, Extra activity does not constitute it being necessary although if you have the bulbs there's no reason to not use them.

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Well if you're trying to somewhat imitate the natural habitat, monitors are often seen out in the sun. It's not like the animals they eat roll in calcium powder before getting eaten... so if we really provided the "proper habitat" would that even be necessary?

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Originally Posted by Capray

Well if you're trying to somewhat imitate the natural habitat, monitors are often seen out in the sun. It's not like the animals they eat roll in calcium powder before getting eaten... so if we really provided the "proper habitat" would that even be necessary?

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Imitating the wild is not the full goal. The goal is to do it better than the wild. Imitating the wild for looks is fine and for the most part also the husbandry but there are things that we are able to improve upon in captivity. They grow quicker in captivity due to a constant supply of food. This means that they need more calcium than their wild counterparts to keep up with the demand.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

I don't "want" to do anything. I'm telling the OP that he will be ok in the cage he is in for 3-4 months which is a 40 gallon if he makes the changes, which he has done. My savannah was in a 4' 4' 4' box at 5 months.

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40 gallon is not acceptable for 3-4 months. You are 100% incorrect and have no business owning a monitor if you feel this is correct.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

The research on the UVB is still up in the air, which is why I recommended he go with it, its better to be safe. Providing D3 through the diet may be enough but I really have no idea.

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UVB is NOT needed for a monitor.

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For a smaller savannah a bask spot of 115-130F is definitely ok so long as they have access to a full body bask. The "one light bulb" approach is not sufficient. For any monitor over one foot I would recommend the higher temperatures (130-140F).

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No. 115 is not ok.

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Tanks definitely can provide the proper gradient 80F-95F if you enclose them with plywood (I use the PE-1 and the accurite thermostats to measure heat). You will get heat "leakage" from the glass but this is solved by adding multiple flood lights. I do agree with you though, it is definitely easier to maintain that heat gradient the larger the cage is and the more the materiels resist heat escape.

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Why enclose it with plywood when you can just REMOVE THE GLASS AND USE JUST THE PLYWOOD!!! There is zero reason to use a glass tank. It's not cheaper, it's never better, it's not easier. How hard is it to make and seal a box, and put some dirt in it? It's really not ! It's just not as "pretty".

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Monitors are definitely tough as nails and you need only to look at the vast distribution of Varanids to understand that. You can find them on just about every continent in many different types of habitats. Yes, they all specialize in those environments as you would expect with natural selection but their builds are all relatively similar for a reason, because they work in a multitude of harsh environments. Again, I am not saying that it is ethical to exploit this toughness in captivity and slack up on the care of these animals.

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Monitors are tough as nails but 99.9% of them never see 5 years of age in captivity. Good logic champ, tough as nails but don't reach 25% of their expected life. Tough as nails but 98% don't live past a year or 2. Yeah, you sure convinced me. Can they take a lot of abuse and recover? Sure, it sometimes happens, but does that make them tough as nails? Nope.

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I agree about your improper conditions paragraph as well. I just dont see how what I have recommended is improper conditions.

If we want to use the term "fish tank" to mean any glass enclosure then we have to universalize that completely. So, are the 20' x 20' glass enclosures at some of the major zoos incapable of providing a proper environment for Varanids?

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Yes. Most of the enclosures at major zoos are poor. I've told reptile curators at zoos that- when they feed to little, don't offer whole prey, don't provide hot enough temps, and offer no dirt in favor of bark or other "display" substrate. Most zoos are clueless in terms of monitor care.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Where have you found the research on the UVB?

I had previously thought that UVB wasn't necessary but in the last year ran across a few folks who have been using UVB with success. I personally just D3 every feeder that I throw in but I did notice more activity out of my Sav when I put a UVB in for several weeks. This is all anecdotal though of course.

I apologize for my lack of clarity in previous posts. I only meant that if the OP makes the changes I originally recommended that his Sav will be o-k until he completes his wooden build and of course sooner is better then later.

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His sav won't be ok for 3-4 months in an aqarium. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Dehlol

40 gallon is not acceptable for 3-4 months. You are 100% incorrect and have no business owning a monitor if you feel this is correct.


UVB is NOT needed for a monitor.


No. 115 is not ok.


Why enclose it with plywood when you can just REMOVE THE GLASS AND USE JUST THE PLYWOOD!!! There is zero reason to use a glass tank. It's not cheaper, it's never better, it's not easier. How hard is it to make and seal a box, and put some dirt in it? It's really not ! It's just not as "pretty".


Monitors are tough as nails but 99.9% of them never see 5 years of age in captivity. Good logic champ, tough as nails but don't reach 25% of their expected life. Tough as nails but 98% don't live past a year or 2. Yeah, you sure convinced me. Can they take a lot of abuse and recover? Sure, it sometimes happens, but does that make them tough as nails? Nope.


Yes. Most of the enclosures at major zoos are poor. I've told reptile curators at zoos that- when they feed to little, don't offer whole prey, don't provide hot enough temps, and offer no dirt in favor of bark or other "display" substrate. Most zoos are clueless in terms of monitor care.


His sav won't be ok for 3-4 months in an aqarium. Lol.

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A 40 gallon is acceptable for 3-4 months. You are 100% incorrect and have no business owning a monitor if you feel this is not correct. (See, I can make non-arguments too, I can also do ad hominem but then again so can most primates (its called flinging poo) )

Either point out why I am wrong using some kind of factual evidence or I am done with your nonsense because your wasting my time. I am all open to be corrected with new evidence but your just wasting my time.

I think we have both said already that UVB isn't necessary, reading the thread may help you out.

115F is the low side on the basking AND I only recommend it for smaller monitors, this would typically be when the light turns on in the morning or when you spray the enclosure down with water. I pointed this out multiple times by saying 115F-130F. My rational for this is that if your only feeding inverts there is less heat required in a smaller stomach with less mass to decompose.

He can enclose the tank with plywood because that is what he has to work with until he makes his build, which I'm sure he has already started, if for anything, just to end this thread.

If he was starting from scratch then he could have built the plywood cage from the start and then purchased the monitor (which is ideal).

The majority of those Savs die due to a newspaper substrate, 30 gallon tank, single 150WT bulb, rodent diet/dog food lifestyle OR they are free range in the house. They develop shedding issues which cut off circulation, burns, lack of exercise, MBD from lack of supplementation, and fatty liver syndrome.

I agree about the zoos though, the vast majority of them are clueless, they will throw their monitors on wood chips and have a flood light 6ft from the floor of the enclosure with no elevated basking spots. However I have seen a couple that do it right, in an all glass enclosure.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

A 40 gallon is acceptable for 3-4 months. You are 100% incorrect and have no business owning a monitor if you feel this is not correct. (See, I can make non-arguments too, I can also do ad hominem but then again so can most primates (its called flinging poo) )

Either point out why I am wrong using some kind of factual evidence or I am done with your nonsense because your wasting my time. I am all open to be corrected with new evidence but your just wasting my time.

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A. Fish tank piss poor for a monitor. PERIOD. Every intelligent monitor keeper agrees with this.
B. 40 gallon too small. If your monitor fits in a 40 gallon after 4 months, you've got problems, likely brought on by the bad environment in the tank!

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I think we have both said already that UVB isn't necessary, reading the thread may help you out.

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I was too busy providing my monitor with a non fish tank enclosure to read every line in this thread. ;)

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115F is the low side on the basking AND I only recommend it for smaller monitors, this would typically be when the light turns on in the morning or when you spray the enclosure down with water. I pointed this out multiple times by saying 115F-130F. My rational for this is that if your only feeding inverts there is less heat required in a smaller stomach with less mass to decompose.

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Wrongo again, doesn't matter if you don't need as "warm of temps to digest insects". You have to feed more of them to equal the same volume of other prey items,...

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He can enclose the tank with plywood because that is what he has to work with until he makes his build, which I'm sure he has already started, if for anything, just to end this thread.

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If you can afford to enclose the tank in plywood,surely he can afford to spend the extra $10 on some sealant and the top/bottom of the plywood enclosed box to make a plywood cage do you not agree? How can you enclose a tank but say you cant use those exact same pieces of wood to make a box- which will be an improvement from the tank...... It's not difficult !

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If he was starting from scratch then he could have built the plywood cage from the start and then purchased the monitor (which is ideal).

The majority of those Savs die due to a newspaper substrate, 30 gallon tank, single 150WT bulb, rodent diet/dog food lifestyle OR they are free range in the house. They develop shedding issues which cut off circulation, burns, lack of exercise, MBD from lack of supplementation, and fatty liver syndrome.

I agree about the zoos though, the vast majority of them are clueless, they will throw their monitors on wood chips and have a flood light 6ft from the floor of the enclosure with no elevated basking spots. However I have seen a couple that do it right, in an all glass enclosure.

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Majority of savs die due to people thinking they can survive 'until I can afford bigger and better enclosures' and it shortens their lives dramatically due to this mindset.

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Originally Posted by Dehlol

A. Fish tank piss poor for a monitor. PERIOD. Every intelligent monitor keeper agrees with this.
B. 40 gallon too small. If your monitor fits in a 40 gallon after 4 months, you've got problems, likely brought on by the bad environment in the tank!

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It is perfectly acceptable to use a heavily modified fish tank which would mean a sealed top with an inside halogen and some type of insulation such as foam or plywood on the outside to hold in the heat. A factory fresh tank with a mesh top is what everybody agrees is awful. A healthy Sav can easily live its first 4 months in a 40 gallon breeder assuming it is modified for monitor use. Much past this will be really pushing it especially if you end up with a male. If you can have the adult enclosure or any larger enclosure set up before 4 months I would of course suggest using it since it will be better in every way.

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Originally Posted by Dehlol

I was too busy providing my monitor with a non fish tank enclosure to read every line in this thread. ;)

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Do you happen to have any pictures of your enclosure and monitor? Of course not everybody wants to read through several pages. Nobody minds if you don't but there's no need to snap at somebody for letting you know that something you confronted them on was something that was already discussed and answered.

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Originally Posted by Dehlol

Wrongo again, doesn't matter if you don't need as "warm of temps to digest insects". You have to feed more of them to equal the same volume of other prey items,...

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I don't disagree that 115 is insufficient. I would guess that digesting insects does take less energy than digesting rodents or other heavy meats. There are also probably more unusable bits on insects than on rodents so you would indeed need slightly more of them by weight to equal the same meat that you get from rodents. I see no reason to not use the same temperatures of 130-145 regardless.

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Originally Posted by Dehlol

If you can afford to enclose the tank in plywood,surely he can afford to spend the extra $10 on some sealant and the top/bottom of the plywood enclosed box to make a plywood cage do you not agree? How can you enclose a tank but say you cant use those exact same pieces of wood to make a box- which will be an improvement from the tank...... It's not difficult !

Majority of savs die due to people thinking they can survive 'until I can afford bigger and better enclosures' and it shortens their lives dramatically due to this mindset.

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Most people don't enclose the tank in plywood and use a fish tank simply because they already have them lying around or because it's convenient to buy. If somebody was going to fully enclose it in wood anyways then I agree that they should just spend the extra bit to finish it instead of using a makeshift enclosure. It's really not difficult but most people that buy Savs don't want to put any effort at all forward since they paid so little for the actual lizard.

I think that the mindset which causes problems is people thinking that they know better than those who have successfully kept and raised monitors even when presented with all the facts. That is not at all aimed at you so don't take it that way. There are really any number of things that cause Savs to die since so many of them die every single year.

I didn't mean to start all this drama, we are using the forty gallon tank until we build the permanent enclosure. I breed balls and am well aware that different species require specific habitats to thrive. That's why I ask questions here to get advice along with my own research this tank I had is set up to provide proper temporary conditions. I have a topsoil sand mixture deep enough for the monitor to burrow should he desire, also I provided enough rocks and wood pieces for him to have plenty of hiding places. My temps are 130 in the hot bask I g area and he is doing well eating when ever offered shared crickets and Dubai's from our colony. He is fed now with tongs or from the dish we have provided. We found the monitor at a repticon show and hadn't planned on the purchase. My son is fifteen and helps my care for our ten snakes and twelve tub rat rack that we breed feeders for our snakes in. I made a comment and asked for some tips and didn't expect to be jumped by fellow herpers and called irresponsible reptile owners. You remind me of the tree huggers in another forum who dogged me for feeding live rats to my balls. You know self rightious beepers like you ruin these forums by acting like everyone is irresponsible for not doing things just as you do, even criticising zoologists. Are you a herpetologist or veterinarian or even a biologist, I'm just curious what are your credentials that make you think you can berate everyone who doesn't believe as you do.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

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Originally Posted by ironpython

I didn't mean to start all this drama, we are using the forty gallon tank until we build the permanent enclosure. I breed balls and am well aware that different species require specific habitats to thrive. That's why I ask questions here to get advice along with my own research this tank I had is set up to provide proper temporary conditions. I have a topsoil sand mixture deep enough for the monitor to burrow should he desire, also I provided enough rocks and wood pieces for him to have plenty of hiding places. My temps are 130 in the hot bask I g area and he is doing well eating when ever offered shared crickets and Dubai's from our colony. He is fed now with tongs or from the dish we have provided. We found the monitor at a repticon show and hadn't planned on the purchase. My son is fifteen and helps my care for our ten snakes and twelve tub rat rack that we breed feeders for our snakes in. I made a comment and asked for some tips and didn't expect to be jumped by fellow herpers and called irresponsible reptile owners. You remind me of the tree huggers in another forum who dogged me for feeding live rats to my balls. You know self rightious beepers like you ruin these forums by acting like everyone is irresponsible for not doing things just as you do, even criticising zoologists. Are you a herpetologist or veterinarian or even a biologist, I'm just curious what are your credentials that make you think you can berate everyone who doesn't believe as you do.

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Very well said. :Applause:

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Originally Posted by ironpython

I didn't mean to start all this drama, we are using the forty gallon tank until we build the permanent enclosure. I breed balls and am well aware that different species require specific habitats to thrive. That's why I ask questions here to get advice along with my own research this tank I had is set up to provide proper temporary conditions. I have a topsoil sand mixture deep enough for the monitor to burrow should he desire, also I provided enough rocks and wood pieces for him to have plenty of hiding places. My temps are 130 in the hot bask I g area and he is doing well eating when ever offered shared crickets and Dubai's from our colony. He is fed now with tongs or from the dish we have provided. We found the monitor at a repticon show and hadn't planned on the purchase. My son is fifteen and helps my care for our ten snakes and twelve tub rat rack that we breed feeders for our snakes in. I made a comment and asked for some tips and didn't expect to be jumped by fellow herpers and called irresponsible reptile owners. You remind me of the tree huggers in another forum who dogged me for feeding live rats to my balls. You know self rightious beepers like you ruin these forums by acting like everyone is irresponsible for not doing things just as you do, even criticising zoologists. Are you a herpetologist or veterinarian or even a biologist, I'm just curious what are your credentials that make you think you can berate everyone who doesn't believe as you do.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

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I'm not a herpetologist. I'm not a veterinarian. I'm not a biologist. Guess what. Private keepers have produced more healthy offspring than all zoological institutions combined, and then some. Private keepers (real keepers) have healthier monitors than zoos. It doesn't take rocket science to walk into a Komodo exhibit with no dirt and know something is beyond wrong.

I act this way toward anyone who buys a new animal without any proper research. Some species can handle it better than others- take for instance corn snakes and ball pythons. Sterlite bins, heat pads, paper towels, and a water dish. Not overly complex animals to keep, something a 4 year old could probably manage. Monitors are a different story.

Adam- I'll have to dig through my old laptop HD for most of my pictures, and I'll try and snap some pics of my 2 current monitors as well. I've raised several species but currently only own a pair of niloticus. The female is around 5', the male is around 6'. Growing the female up to hopefully produce next season- just because no one ever works with this species in captivity, and I'm hoping captive bred offspring will turn out to be decent pets a few generations down the line....

I think the majority of the posters in here are angry that you would buy such an advanced animal without doing any research.

It's pretty irresponsible. I can understand why some are getting testy.

How much of all this work that you are doing to try and help the monitor is your son actively involved in?

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Originally Posted by Dehlol

I'm not a herpetologist. I'm not a veterinarian. I'm not a biologist. Guess what. Private keepers have produced more healthy offspring than all zoological institutions combined, and then some. Private keepers (real keepers) have healthier monitors than zoos. It doesn't take rocket science to walk into a Komodo exhibit with no dirt and know something is beyond wrong.

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This is not such an amazing feat when you consider the purpose of zoos and the always increasing number of herp enthusiasts. I reckon it'd be pretty hard to attract folks to view wildlife with half the enclosures seemingly devoid of said life. Don't get me wrong here, I'd love visiting a place with right proper exhibits, and enjoy viewing habitats nearly as much as the animals themselves - I just don't see such changes happening for these "ambassador species" anytime soon.

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I act this way toward anyone who buys a new animal without any proper research. Some species can handle it better than others- take for instance corn snakes and ball pythons. Sterlite bins, heat pads, paper towels, and a water dish. Not overly complex animals to keep, something a 4 year old could probably manage. Monitors are a different story.

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I'm thinking the holier than thou attitude is getting tiresome. Just because something requires a larger living space to thrive doesn't make it rocket science. I don't need a degree in knowitall to build a box, throw some dirt in, attach my heat lamps with thermostat then toy with ventilation a bit - reckon a 7 year old could pull that one off. I'm personally not so opposed to impulse buys but understand how it might tick off monitor enthusiasts especially. These animals require more money(food, electricity, food, building materials, food) and time(feeding, cleaning poop, feeding, cleaning poopy water, feeding, getting pooped on, feeding) than most impulse buyers are willing or even capable of providing.

I don't believe a ball python or corn snake is hardier than a monitor per se. Seems to me this is more a case of the average house temperature being closer to their naturally preferred gradients giving this illusion. If I kept my house a constant 40 degrees I don't suppose either would thrive for long without their own accommodations. When you compare the natural gradient of a diurnal african lizard with that of a nocturnal african snake you might understand why one seems more hardy if neither were given adequate care in the typical human's house.

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Adam- I'll have to dig through my old laptop HD for most of my pictures, and I'll try and snap some pics of my 2 current monitors as well. I've raised several species but currently only own a pair of niloticus. The female is around 5', the male is around 6'. Growing the female up to hopefully produce next season- just because no one ever works with this species in captivity, and I'm hoping captive bred offspring will turn out to be decent pets a few generations down the line....

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I know these are for Adam but I'm looking forward to the pictures. I always enjoy seeing large setups and, most important, their thriving inhabitants. I also appreciate you sharing your advice and expertise, if not the way you give it.

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Originally Posted by ironpython

I didn't mean to start all this drama, we are using the forty gallon tank until we build the permanent enclosure. I breed balls and am well aware that different species require specific habitats to thrive. That's why I ask questions here to get advice along with my own research this tank I had is set up to provide proper temporary conditions. I have a topsoil sand mixture deep enough for the monitor to burrow should he desire, also I provided enough rocks and wood pieces for him to have plenty of hiding places. My temps are 130 in the hot bask I g area and he is doing well eating when ever offered shared crickets and Dubai's from our colony. He is fed now with tongs or from the dish we have provided. We found the monitor at a repticon show and hadn't planned on the purchase. My son is fifteen and helps my care for our ten snakes and twelve tub rat rack that we breed feeders for our snakes in. I made a comment and asked for some tips and didn't expect to be jumped by fellow herpers and called irresponsible reptile owners. You remind me of the tree huggers in another forum who dogged me for feeding live rats to my balls. You know self rightious beepers like you ruin these forums by acting like everyone is irresponsible for not doing things just as you do, even criticising zoologists. Are you a herpetologist or veterinarian or even a biologist, I'm just curious what are your credentials that make you think you can berate everyone who doesn't believe as you do.

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Only a minor bit of the recent tirades were actually about your monitor specifically. Most of it was just back and forth debating that accidentally took over your thread. Sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by John1982

I'm thinking the holier than thou attitude is getting tiresome. Just because something requires a larger living space to thrive doesn't make it rocket science. I don't need a degree in knowitall to build a box, throw some dirt in, attach my heat lamps with thermostat then toy with ventilation a bit - reckon a 7 year old could pull that one off. I'm personally not so opposed to impulse buys but understand how it might tick off monitor enthusiasts especially. These animals require more money(food, electricity, food, building materials, food) and time(feeding, cleaning poop, feeding, cleaning poopy water, feeding, getting pooped on, feeding) than most impulse buyers are willing or even capable of providing.

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Just because it's easy to do something doesn't mean people are willing to do it which is quite often the case. I'm highly against impulse buys because when it happens the people usually have no idea how to care for a monitor or understand the size that they will get. The few who decide to look up the true care requirements for monitors generally write them off as being ridiculous and ignore them entirely causing the monitor to die in a year or two. The majority of the blame for impulse monitor buying lays with the sellers who boast them as simple to care for and leave out all of the vital information to make a sale.

I liked the part about all the food because of how accurate it is.

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Originally Posted by John1982

I don't believe a ball python or corn snake is hardier than a monitor per se. Seems to me this is more a case of the average house temperature being closer to their naturally preferred gradients giving this illusion. If I kept my house a constant 40 degrees I don't suppose either would thrive for long without their own accommodations. When you compare the natural gradient of a diurnal african lizard with that of a nocturnal african snake you might understand why one seems more hardy if neither were given adequate care in the typical human's house.

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I think that Ball Pythons and Corn Snakes are easier for the general public to deal with and they are so mainstream that everybody and their brother knows how to care for one. They don't need much more than interaction once a week to feed, change the water, and change the substrate. Monitors are simple too but their requirements are usually too much for the average person.

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Originally Posted by Capray

How much of all this work that you are doing to try and help the monitor is your son actively involved in?

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Every bit he shows me what he is doing. He has been researching and tell g what he finds. He built a breeding box for crickets which consists of a ten g aquarium with egg cartons and a small Rubbermaid container with a portion of the lid cut out and filled with dirt with a screen over it for egg laying. Also a dubia colony with flex watt heat and a super worm colony and meal worm colony. He pays for everything with his own money from cutting grass. He has been researching on the intranet and utube getting ideas from someone who calls himself snake freak. His monitor has grown twice its original size eating like crazy. He just now fed it two mouse pinks, with tongs it swallowed them whole.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

Feeding is not an issue I breed rats for my balls and have way more than I need.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,

We are well aware of the size this animal will attain and of the husbandry requirements involved. I have a 12x 20 shed coming and he will have one end of it in a 4x4x8 enclosure with a doggie door going to a fenced dog kennel should he want to go outside. We live in south coastal Ga. with a long summer and high humidity. Maybe you should do more research yourself before you pass judgement on someone you know nothing about. His new home will be finished well before he out grows his temporary home.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,