Corded hatchlings - How to know the difference & what to do?

Hello. Need help.

I had a VPI het lavender albino x VPI het lavender albino pairing produce 6 fertile eggs. At day 55 in the incubator there were 4 that pipped already so I cut the other 2. I had 2 lavender albinos and 4 possible hets. A couple of days after I checked again and found 1 had gone out of the egg and one possible het dead with its head sticking out of the egg - corded. Today I found 3 more out of the egg and one still in the egg so I checked. It was dead as well. I took it out of the egg and found that it was corded too!

How do you tell if a hatchling is in trouble and may be corded?

What do you do to help the hatchling get out of the mess?

Both lavender albino hatchlings made it. 2 corded bps in a clutch is horrendous especially if I could've helped them out. Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks in advance.

I haven't had any problems like this as of yet but I am very interested in seeing the responses.
BTW post a couple pictures of the clutch :D

http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...s-what-do.html
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/ar...us-what-to-do/
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ord-in-egg-911
http://thereptilereport.com/twisted-umbilicus/

Sorry to here about the babies....

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Originally Posted by sho220

http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...s-what-do.html
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/ar...us-what-to-do/
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ord-in-egg-911
http://thereptilereport.com/twisted-umbilicus/

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Thanks a lot for the very informative links, sho220. Big help! As a follow up, if a good majority of the bps pip already and one or two do not, I take it I should open up the egg(s) enough to check for signs of trouble? It shouldn't hurt the bp and I'm thinking this should do more good than bad?

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I haven't had any problems like this as of yet but I am very interested in seeing the responses.
BTW post a couple pictures of the clutch :D

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I'll post the pictures soon as they shed :)

Cutting little flaps in the eggs is fine, it may help you get a look at them and help the out before they strangle themselves.

Sorry for your loss, hope the rest are okay. :(

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Originally Posted by xtian228

Thanks a lot for the very informative links, sho220. Big help! As a follow up, if a good majority of the bps pip already and one or two do not, I take it I should open up the egg(s) enough to check for signs of trouble? It shouldn't hurt the bp and I'm thinking this should do more good than bad?

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Cutting eggs is generally fine once the first pips. Lots of breeders cut prior to the first pipping to avoid exactly what you experienced. The earlier you can catch a twisted/tangled/knotted umbilical cord the better. I take my chances, wait until the first pips, and then cut the rest. So far, so good.

I'm glad you found the links helpful. I've never had to deal with this particular problem before but I've read up a little about it. Good info to keep in the back of your mind in case it ever does happen...

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Originally Posted by sho220

Cutting eggs is generally fine once the first pips. Lots of breeders cut prior to the first pipping to avoid exactly what you experienced. The earlier you can catch a twisted/tangled/knotted umbilical cord the better. I take my chances, wait until the first pips, and then cut the rest. So far, so good.

I'm glad you found the links helpful. I've never had to deal with this particular problem before but I've read up a little about it. Good info to keep in the back of your mind in case it ever does happen...

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Thanks again! I know better now.

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Originally Posted by xtian228

Thanks again! I know better now.

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http://www.familyguyfiles.com/epimag..._001270812.jpg

:D

Oh, i am very sorry to hear about your babies!!

When I used to cut clutches, (because I had seen eeeeeeeeeeveryone do it, and its "the norm") I had a few twisted cords.

Since I stopped cutting completely I have had none of these issues. (nope even after all but one have pipped, I will not cut)

Of course this isn't a fact nor cold hard evidence that twisted umbilicus are a direct result of cutting, I have reasonably concluded it may be a cause and this has led me PERSONALLY to choose not to cut.

Hear me out.

My theory is that when an egg is cut, especially if you remove a large portion of it as though you are carving a pumpkin, the snake has a lot more "wiggle room" for the duration of their yolk digesting period. Perhaps when a snake pips through the membrane after an egg has been cut, they utilize this extra wiggle room, poke out further, and generally "stretch" themselves more than if the egg had remained closed or mostly closed.

Also, of course once you cut the eggs and see what has developed inside, YAY YAY YAY you think you hit your combo! But you just can't be certain until the snake fully emerges. So, you check on the egg box a hundred times a day. Don't say this doesn't happen - we're all guilty of it!

Through the years though, I haves learned patience and to let nature take its course. I only check out egg bins morning, and before bed. Minimal interference time during hatching = less time for the snake to be "startled" and jolt itself back into the egg. You've all seen a scared ball python ball up and hide its head underneath its body. Imagine a ball python doing that while still in the egg, with its umbilical cord and yolk just hanging around.

Sorry I know this is getting long-winded and maybe a bit jumbled up as I'm typing on my phone.

But, with more wiggle room, more back and forth in and out of the egg, I believe this gives them more time to twist themselves up in ways they would not have been able to if their egg had remained mostly closed.

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

Oh, i am very sorry to hear about your babies!!

When I used to cut clutches, (because I had seen eeeeeeeeeeveryone do it, and its "the norm") I had a few twisted cords.

Since I stopped cutting completely I have had none of these issues. (nope even after all but one have pipped, I will not cut)

Of course this isn't a fact nor cold hard evidence that twisted umbilicus are a direct result of cutting, I have reasonably concluded it may be a cause and this has led me PERSONALLY to choose not to cut.

Hear me out.

My theory is that when an egg is cut, especially if you remove a large portion of it as though you are carving a pumpkin, the snake has a lot more "wiggle room" for the duration of their yolk digesting period. Perhaps when a snake pips through the membrane after an egg has been cut, they utilize this extra wiggle room, poke out further, and generally "stretch" themselves more than if the egg had remained closed or mostly closed.

Also, of course once you cut the eggs and see what has developed inside, YAY YAY YAY you think you hit your combo! But you just can't be certain until the snake fully emerges. So, you check on the egg box a hundred times a day. Don't say this doesn't happen - we're all guilty of it!

Through the years though, I haves learned patience and to let nature take its course. I only check out egg bins morning, and before bed. Minimal interference time during hatching = less time for the snake to be "startled" and jolt itself back into the egg. You've all seen a scared ball python ball up and hide its head underneath its body. Imagine a ball python doing that while still in the egg, with its umbilical cord and yolk just hanging around.

Sorry I know this is getting long-winded and maybe a bit jumbled up as I'm typing on my phone.

But, with more wiggle room, more back and forth in and out of the egg, I believe this gives them more time to twist themselves up in ways they would not have been able to if their egg had remained mostly closed.

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That's an interesting theory, especially since it goes against what I've heard from many breeders much more experienced than I. Their thoughts are that it's better to cut early so you can fix any problem with the cord being tangled/knotted prior to the babies pipping. Then again, I've always suspected a lot of those guys were simply trying to justify cutting eggs early.

Definitely food for thought.

And, no, I don't check my egg boxes a hundred times a day!




yeah...yeah I do...

:D

It's definitely worth looking more into. Like I said I personally have not had any tangled cords in non-cut eggs.

I am a very, very small little particle of dust in the wind in the grand scheme of things, but like I said, that's my personal theory.

Unfortunately there are very few breeders who do not cut at all, so conducting a survey on weather they've had a tangled cord in a non-cut egg could prove to be very difficult. I'll put my thinking cap on though and maybe get something going with that.

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

It's definitely worth looking more into. Like I said I personally have not had any tangled cords in non-cut eggs.

I am a very, very small little particle of dust in the wind in the grand scheme of things, but like I said, that's my personal theory.

Unfortunately there are very few breeders who do not cut at all, so conducting a survey on weather they've had a tangled cord in a non-cut egg could prove to be very difficult. I'll put my thinking cap on though and maybe get something going with that.

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Good info...:gj:

I certainly do not want to hijack the OPs thread (though I kind of did, so sorry! I do apologize!)

But I was thinking a lot about this theory and decided to put up a thread pertaining to this topic, to hopefully get some more discussion going. You can see it here: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-tangled-cords

OP, good luck with the rest of your babies!!! Hope to see some photos of them soon!

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

I certainly do not want to hijack the OPs thread (though I kind of did, so sorry! I do apologize!)

But I was thinking a lot about this theory and decided to put up a thread pertaining to this topic, to hopefully get some more discussion going. You can see it here: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-tangled-cords

OP, good luck with the rest of your babies!!! Hope to see some photos of them soon!

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Thanks! I have a few more clutches cooking so I will certainly read through your post to help me decide whether to cut or not. More thoughts to consider now... I will post pics from this clutch and others as soon as they shed :)

I can just about prove that cutting early caused a twisted umbilical for me last season. And I know for a fact it cost me my first pied baby, that one had a twisted umbilical as well.

I guess my thoughts on this are, read up on it, because the knowledge can help save a baby if the worst happens. But as to cutting early? When I do cut now, it's only after one pips, and only the tiniest of openings. I don't do that whole top of the egg off thing I see so much of. :no:

Gale

I remember Justin Kobylka doing a video of egg cutting to see if he had hit on the Dreamcicle (sp?) and he said once he cuts he leaves the eggs alone because he believes too much interaction can cause the baby to become tangled in it's umbilicus basically he believes the same as Squamish Serpents and it's a point that makes sense to me.

When I wake up on the weekend and the sun is shining through the window, if you pull the covers off me before I'm ready to wake up...

I get tangled in the sheets.

Even if you do cut, you can miss a problem with the cord, unless you cut a really big hole. Then, you leave the egg exposed for a whole set of new problems. It is a personal preference and I have no issues with an experienced keeper cutting eggs. My concern is the inexperienced keeper cutting too early, then not knowing what to look for or how to fix problems. I just hate to see lost clutches because of issues that could have been easily avoided. For me, I don't really see a need to cut any longer - guess I've just learned patience.

I have never had this issue. I also don't cut. I've only hatched around 100 or so babies though, so my sample isn't huge.

Sorry for your loss.

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Originally Posted by Don

Even if you do cut, you can miss a problem with the cord, unless you cut a really big hole. Then, you leave the egg exposed for a whole set of new problems. It is a personal preference and I have no issues with an experienced keeper cutting eggs. My concern is the inexperienced keeper cutting too early, then not knowing what to look for or how to fix problems. I just hate to see lost clutches because of issues that could have been easily avoided. For me, I don't really see a need to cut any longer - guess I've just learned patience.

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This is what I mean, what do you look out for if and when you cut to say that there is trouble? I've read a couple of books and, as pointed out, they say cut when an egg pips. The cut I made was small too but I had to lift the eggs so, that must've messed the hatchlings up even more. I guess it's best to just leave them be until they crawl out on their own.

Thanks, Don.