Snake Activity and Frequency of Handling

I am posting this thead in hopes of getting some useful feedback (not criticism please) or opinions. My curiosity stems from some responses I recieved in a previous thread, and also from a thread on frequency of handling I just finished reading. First of all, I have to say, I am not a breeder. I own one snake. I own my snake with the purpose and intention of enjoying a pet. My BP is 9 years old; however, I have only owned it for about a year and a half. I inherited my snake from my friend who did an excellent job raising it. In a few ways, my snake seems to go against the norm as far as I can tell from what I have read. I am relatively new to snake ownership; however, I have owned reptiles (iguanas, chameleons) all my life. I may be new to it, but I have done extensive research, and have had over a year hands-on experience now. In other words, I have done a lot of observing and learning the preferences of my particular snake. First, my snake hides and sleeps during the day, but he is VERY active at night(when he is not in shed or not right after eating). This is where I beg to refrain from criticism. I can clearly tell the difference between discomfort and eager activity. I have been refining my husbandry skills, and I think I do and did a pretty good job setting up and maintaining his tank (I am aware of all the preferences with tubs/tanks and the whole screen thing, but I have what I have right now and will probably make a change in the future as I am building him a new enclosure right now...work in progress). My snake loves to come out and explore my room(always under close supervision). I let him do it as frequently as I and my schedule will allow. When he is out, he constantly explores. He loves it. He also loves coming out with me during the summer. I go out with him around my neck, and he seems to love exploring (non fertilized lawns) in the breeze and sun. I love watching him rear up and look like he is on the hunt...it's awesome. Also, another aspect in which I think he goes against the norm is climbing. He loves it. He will eagerly climb anything in his way. Albeit, he is kind of clumsy lol. A lot of threads and comments on here all pertain to owners' and their snakes hiding all the time, and never handling it besides at cleaning time. I cannot fathom this notion. I handle my snake as much as he wants to be handled...and as much as my schedule allows lol...which is probably a few times a week or more...way more in the summer. He loves to be pet...and he recently just started letting me pet under his chin and let me touch his head. He loves the chin thing....just like a dog lol. Basically, (sorry for the rant, just built up thoughts over the past year or so) I just think he goes against the norm as far as activity and handling. Any opinions or thoughts? Concerns? Comments from experienced owners who do not own their snake just to breed or just leave them in tubs? I greatly appreciate all you guys have taught me :D

My first Ball Python was named Helix. I took her out every single day. She and I spent many days outside on the grass. Sometimes I'd lie on the floor reading a book while she would explore the room (which was empty at the time). She would let me touch her head, open her mouth and even squeeze her pudgy cheeks. She also climbed a lot.

I felt that she "loved" to be out, exploring. But, what I've learned since then is that she "Tolerated" being touched, and she was more than likely climbing and exploring in order to find a safer place to hide. Snakes are reptiles, and their brains are not capable of emotions the way you are mentioning above.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying your pet and it's nice to hear you love your snake as much as you do. Just don't confuse tolerance with emotions.

I see your point, and it's a good one. You know what really grinds my gears? The fact that the major reptile supply manufacturers don't really produce any really good hides for full-grown snakes. I myself am using two dark flower pots turned upside down. I feel they provide a better, more secure hide than anything I have seen on the market. What kind of hides do you guys and gals use for full grown snakes? I am in the process of creating a new enclosure for my snake, and I do feel I can improve on the hides I have currently. However, during the day when Dime is hiding, I do feel that he feels secure, and he hasn't given me any reason to doubt that. When he is active, he is active, and doesn't hide...even when I let him out(and there are plenty of places for him to do so). I understand the whole premise pertaining to a snake being active with the intent of finding a better hide. I just don't feel that is what my snake is doing, but that doesn't mean I can't improve and test those waters. This pet store that is local to me has this really cool, big and deep rock hide that the owner says ins't manufactured anymore. I really wish I could find two just like it. I will take a pic of it the next time I am in there. I know that they don't have emotion like we do, but my snake does just like to be out of his cage when he is active. I have looked at all the major hides on the market, and didn't find one that was either big enough or one I liked. Any recommendations?

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Originally Posted by WhiteSoxPyro83

I see your point, and it's a good one. You know what really grinds my gears? The fact that the major reptile supply manufacturers don't really produce any really good hides for full-grown snakes. I myself am using two dark flower pots turned upside down. I feel they provide a better, more secure hide than anything I have seen on the market. What kind of hides do you guys and gals use for full grown snakes? I am in the process of creating a new enclosure for my snake, and I do feel I can improve on the hides I have currently. However, during the day when Dime is hiding, I do feel that he feels secure, and he hasn't given me any reason to doubt that. When he is active, he is active, and doesn't hide...even when I let him out(and there are plenty of places for him to do so). I understand the whole premise pertaining to a snake being active with the intent of finding a better hide. I just don't feel that is what my snake is doing, but that doesn't mean I can't improve and test those waters. This pet store that is local to me has this really cool, big and deep rock hide that the owner says ins't manufactured anymore. I really wish I could find two just like it. I will take a pic of it the next time I am in there. I know that they don't have emotion like we do, but my snake does just like to be out of his cage when he is active. I have looked at all the major hides on the market, and didn't find one that was either big enough or one I liked. Any recommendations?

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For my large snakes I used upsideown kitty litter boxes. Walmart sells them for about 10 bux. I'd never use them for my cats as they're just too shalow and the plastic is thin, but cut a hole in it and BAM perfect hide ;)

I understand what you're saying, i remember when i had one snake and could put all my spare time into him. But as your love for the hobby grows, so does your collection. With a greater amount of snakes it's hard to put a bunch of time into each individual snake (although we all would want to). But as Rickys_Reptiles said, you learn that your snake just tolerates you and is looking for a more secure place to hide.
Also, i don't know of any "owners who do not own their snake just to breed or just leave them in tubs."I think everyone who is in the breeding world of this hobby loves their snakes as much as someone who only has one snake.
I'm glad you enjoy your ball python, and you do engage in different activities with him. :gj:

I will never get another snake. I never intended on getting this one. He is much more than a snake to me.

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Originally Posted by WhiteSoxPyro83

You know what really grinds my gears? The fact that the major reptile supply manufacturers don't really produce any really good hides for full-grown snakes... I have looked at all the major hides on the market, and didn't find one that was either big enough or one I liked. Any recommendations?

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http://www.reptilebasics.com/hide-boxes

http://www.reptilebasics.com/images/products/lhide.jpg

These come highly, highly recommended. :gj:

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Originally Posted by rossi46

http://www.reptilebasics.com/hide-boxesyeah I did see these...just seemed a little too plain for my aesthetic side, but I realize functionality is a little more important. I do like it. Thanks a bunch.

http://www.reptilebasics.com/images/products/lhide.jpg

These come highly, highly recommended. :gj:

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I am not trying to sound disrespectful or anything, but how do you guys know pythons do not have emotions? Have you ever been a ball python? Do you know him? Does he call you at home? Do you have a dorsal fin??? lol. To train the dolphin you must think like the dolphin! lol...but seriously...how do you know they don't have emotions? I have seen my snake exhibit what seems like excitement...and I have also seen videos of pissed off, angry snakes. I would call anger an emotion.? no?

These arguments pop up from time to time.

Okay, we know reptiles do not have mammalian emotions just on the basis of how the reptilian brain works. Beyond that, emotions as you are talking about are socially applied emotions. Sure, all complex organisms have conceptions of contentment and pain, irritation, so on. But social emotions are behaviors that had to evolve within a species to balance inter-species competition with intra-species competition.

For instance, a tiger probably has emotions, but we know it doesn't crave attention by virtue of being a solitary animal. Lions on the other hand, are very social and usually die or face extreme hardship living alone. So even IF a snake had emotions of a kind recognizable to humans, why on Earth would these emotions be generated for companionship when everything about a snake's lifestyle screams solitary?

Dogs, Cockatoos, Cats, Sugar Gliders, ferrets, so on are companion animals because they imprint on their owners and depend on them for intellectual stimulation. Your snake did not imprint on you, and we know this because if you give it away the behaviors it demonstrates will not change like it would for a dog or cat.

Basically, animal behaviors are the result of a complex evolutionary process that usually selects against animals with detrimental behaviors. A snake that seeks attention is one that seeks to be eaten.
Has anyone heard about the phenomenon of silent rattlesnakes? All the hunters find the snakes via the sound they make, so the surviving snakes are selected to have preferences for not rattling. This is how much snakes don't want attention.
Personification is a powerful illusion, but don't mistake what it is

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Originally Posted by WhiteSoxPyro83

how do you guys know pythons do not have emotions? Have you ever been a ball python? Do you know him? Does he call you at home? Do you have a dorsal fin??? lol. To train the dolphin you must think like the dolphin! lol...but seriously...how do you know they don't have emotions? I have seen my snake exhibit what seems like excitement...and I have also seen videos of pissed off, angry snakes. I would call anger an emotion.? no?

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While science does not like to admit how little it knows about the physiology of the brain, it does know some very fundamental things about cognition how to measure the parts of the brain responsible for it. Snakes have an extremely limited capacity for emotion, so much so that you could safely say it is nearly non-existent.

'love' = feels unthreatened, relaxed

'excited' = alert to stimuli, unthreatened

'anger' = threatened, defensive

The words love, excited, anger have deeper chemical processes attached to them as they are defined in human language and you can relate to those words. Dolphins are capable of emotional cognition at a MUCH higher capacity than snakes, so much so that you could safely say they do feel emotions the way we define and can relate to them.

People like to make yes or no statements out of things. For the purpose of discussion here, they can do so pretty safely, but it isn't technically accurate. It's much more appropriate to say they can't than can.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=why+s...,r:0,s:0,i:162I was just quoting Ace Ventura. I do appreciate the input however...just kinda having fun.

If it makes you feel better to feel as though your snake loves you, so be it! :)

I personally don't think my snakes "love" me, but I do think that they know who I am. They are comfortable with me picking them up and holding them and they generally don't perceive me as a threat (mot of the time haha).

Plenty of people have great relationships with their singular pet snake. I was there at one point too! Eventually I became captivated by the ball python's crazy pattern and color mutations that I couldn't have just one :)

The first snake I ever got will always hold a special place in my heart. I would never ever give her up! I love her just as much as my dog or cat, but in a different way :P

lol...thanks a bunch for that last comment. However, I don't believe I said he loves me or I think he loves me. I was more or less commenting based on observations of him and his activity in his tank and in my room and lawn. I have spent the past year fine tuning his preferences on temp, and actually greatly improved his living conditions, and I noticed a very noticeable change in his body language. I can definitely tell he is more comfortable in his tank than he used to be. I also notice a difference in behavior when I am holding him compared to a stranger. I never intended on getting this snake. He was the pet of my best friend of 27 years (I'm 29). He passed away last year, and his parents decided to give him to me. So...the snake is much more than just a snake to me. I just want to provide the best living conditions possible; therefore, I am very pro active and having fun setting up his new enclosure. My friend did an awesome job rasing him, but I took it to the next level as far as husbandry. All I can hope for is another 20 awesome years!

The whole body language change (for the better), and eagerness rather than discomfort are where I bed to differ.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend :( But I'm glad his memory lives on through your pet snake!

I totally understand the body language thing. Once you've been keeping snakes for a while, you can really see how they are feeling based on their body language.

I guess when I read that your snake "loved" doing certain things, I assumed you meant your snake also loves doing those things with you ;).

As long as your husbandry is good and your snake is eating, I don't think any amount of handling or interaction could be considered "bad". I take my snakes outside from time to time, I'm sure they somewhat enjoy the change of scenery and new smells. Some snakes are much less stressed in these situations than others. My young snakes are often very scared (balling up), while my adults are busy wandering around and checking stuff out.

Your snake might be very active and inquisitive when handling and being in different places, but for other snakes, this could be extremely stressful. If you know how to read their body language (which it appears you do) you can judge when your snake is feeling uncomfortable vs. when they are feeling relaxed.

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

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I felt that she "loved" to be out, exploring. But, what I've learned since then is that she "Tolerated" being touched, and she was more than likely climbing and exploring in order to find a safer place to hide. Snakes are reptiles, and their brains are not capable of emotions the way you are mentioning above.

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100% this.

It's like when people claim their bp loves swimming in the bathtub, when it's much more likely that their bp just enjoys not drowning in the bathtub.

The reptilian brain flat out does not have the structures that we attribute many of our emotions to. If you're seeing anything other than fear, anger, hunger or desire to mate then you're anthropomorphizing. He is active at night because he's nocturnal, he likes hanging on to your neck becaue that's better than falling on the ground. As much as we would love to think that Mr. Snakey loves to see us when we take him out it's just not the case. They would much rather that the giant predator thing stops taking them out of their house.

Bp's are shy by nature, look at how they got their name. Them hanging out and not moving much doesn't mean they like being around us, it's more likely because please don't eat me Mr. Giant man sir.

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Originally Posted by mackynz

100% this.

It's like when people claim their bp loves swimming in the bathtub, when it's much more likely that their bp just enjoys not drowning in the bathtub.

The reptilian brain flat out does not have the structures that we attribute many of our emotions to. If you're seeing anything other than fear, anger, hunger or desire to mate then you're anthropomorphizing. He is active at night because he's nocturnal, he likes hanging on to your neck becaue that's better than falling on the ground. As much as we would love to think that Mr. Snakey loves to see us when we take him out it's just not the case. They would much rather that the giant predator thing stops taking them out of their house.

Bp's are shy by nature, look at how they got their name. Them hanging out and not moving much doesn't mean they like being around us, it's more likely because please don't eat me Mr. Giant man sir.

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This is exactly the kind of condescending talk I have encountered quiet a bit on this site. And frankly, it frustrates me. If it's not EXACTLY the way you see it...then you are wrong and stupid. I know there are a lot of morons out there, but I am not one of them. That bathtub comment is ridiculous. He hangs on my neck because I put him there. He enjoys the new smells and things...just like Kaorte said. And I am aware they are nocturnal...did you even read this thread? That wasn't what I was asking about.

There is no anthropomorphism police lol. As long as your snake is healthy and well cared for you can do whatever you want in terms of handling. Everyone on this site is guilty of anthropomorphising their animals. But dont worry..its not an actual crime.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta

It's true that the reptilian brain doesn't have the same structure that processes emotion. They're instinctual creatures. More primal, I suppose.
I didn't find Mackynz to be condescending at all. I think you're taking it too personal.

But anyway, Anthropomorphizing is a no no in my book. This isn't directed at the OP, but in general.
People are always giving human characteristics to an animal. Apples and oranges.....

In my opinion, snakes do not 'love'. Love is a human emotion. We as humans tend to anthropomorphasize animals. We treat them as if they are human even though they are not.
However, Animals may exhibit affection or a similar raw behavior. Animals may have their own version of what we call 'love', but it should not be categorized on the same level as a human as they are not humans....

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Originally Posted by WhiteSoxPyro83

This is exactly the kind of condescending talk I have encountered quiet a bit on this site. And frankly, it frustrates me. If it's not EXACTLY the way you see it...then you are wrong and stupid. I know there are a lot of morons out there, but I am not one of them. That bathtub comment is ridiculous. He hangs on my neck because I put him there. He enjoys the new smells and things...just like Kaorte said. And I am aware they are nocturnal...did you even read this thread? That wasn't what I was asking about.

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How was I condescending? If we are using your logic then I should be calling you naive, unwilling to learn or just delusional but I'm not because there's no point to that. Try looking up the reptilian brain, it has nothing to do with you seeing EXACTLY the way I see it. It's fact, look it up.

The bathtub comment is ridiculous, some people actually think burrow dwelling snakes actually enjoy being forced to swim with no way out.

And of course he hangs on your neck when you put him there, what other option does he have besides falling?

How do you know he enjoys new smells and things? Does he tell you? Or is it that he is trying to identify if something is predator or prey, danger our a hiding place?

I am not trying to tell you not to handle your snake or anything of the sort. Just look at it for what it is, a snake. Not a dog, not a cat and not a person. Basic animal behavior and human behaior are not the same thing.

To me it is condescending, because that was not what I was talking about at all, and your patronizing me by talking to me like I am an idiot. My comments more or less pertained to my interpretation of what I see in my animal with my eyes. I see a soul in every living thing. It is my interpretation of his body language, and when I use the word "love", I am not using it its literal sense. I am using it as an expression of enjoyment. By enjoyment, I mean my interpretation of his body language. I can totally tell he is not threatened or upset, and is having a way better time than just roaming his cage. It may be anthropomorphizing it, but it's better than sucking the life out of it. Isn't that human nature? Isn't that why we have pets? I totally understand everything you guys are saying; however, I just see things differently. You guys just take the fun out of everything...and that sucks for you. There is no logic in affection.

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Originally Posted by WhiteSoxPyro83

To me it is condescending, because that was not what I was talking about at all, and your patronizing me by talking to me like I am an idiot. My comments more or less pertained to my interpretation of what I see in my animal with my eyes. I see a soul in every living thing. It is my interpretation of his body language, and when I use the word "love", I am not using it its literal sense. I am using it as an expression of enjoyment. By enjoyment, I mean my interpretation of his body language. I can totally tell he is not threatened or upset, and is having a way better time than just roaming his cage. It may be anthropomorphizing it, but it's better than sucking the life out of it. Isn't that human nature? Isn't that why we have pets? I totally understand everything you guys are saying; however, I just see things differently. You guys just take the fun out of everything...and that sucks for you.

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It really doesn't suck for me. It allows me to take better care of my animals because when I see my animals freak out I don't think it's dancing. When I see them moving around quickly I see them looking for cover and not playing. When I see them breathing hard I don't think their excited, because I know they're stressed. Viewing your animals like people can absolutely be detrimental to the animal. So either you actually don't get it or you just don't care. You may love your animal, and that's all well and good. I love mine too but I realize that my snake simply doesn't have the capacity for it to be mutual and as such I try not to let it cloud my vision.

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Originally Posted by WhiteSoxPyro83

There is no logic in affection.

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There's none your argument either.

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Originally Posted by mackynz

It really doesn't suck for me. It allows me to take better care of my animals because when I see my animals freak out I don't think it's dancing. When I see them moving around quickly I see them looking for cover and not playing. When I see them breathing hard I don't think their excited, because I know they're stressed. Viewing your animals like people can absolutely be detrimental to the animal. So either you actually don't get it or you just don't care. You may love your animal, and that's all well and good. I love mine too but I realize that my snake simply doesn't have the capacity for it to be mutual and as such I try not to let it cloud my vision.

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You are making the assumption that the OP is interpreting his snakes actions/body language incorrectly. Based on his descriptions, do you truly believe this is the case? Because I do not. I believe the OP has a good understanding of his snakes body language.

You are using hypothetical situations to describe your point, which I understand, but none of these situations reflect what the OP is describing.


None of us will ever truly know what is going on in a snakes brain. We can only make inferences based on observation. That being said, there is no problem with either of your methods of snake interaction. Neither are wrong nor right. As long as the animal is not being overly stressed with handling there are zero issues that can arise out of handling your snake a bit more or letting it slither in the grass. I don't handle my snakes THAT much, but I have in the past and I had zero issues with feeding.


OP: I understand the point of your post, but try not to become upset when people don't share the same viewpoint and opinion. None of us are any less loving of our animals because of the way we do (or don't) handle them. Honestly, I don't think the snakes really care either way! As long as they have a nice cozy hide and a rat every week they will be healthy and happy.

This kind of topic is a matter of opinion. Anyone who looks down on a fellow keeper for their handling practices (assuming husbandry is spot on) is making this discussion unproductive. We are all animal lovers here!

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

You are making the assumption that the OP is interpreting his snakes actions/body language incorrectly. Based on his descriptions, do you truly believe this is the case? Because I do not. I believe the OP has a good understanding of his snakes body language.

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I do. It's silly to claim your snake likes to see and smell new things when unless you're Harry Potter your snake isn't doing much talking back to you. Like I said, I don't think his snake likes being around his neck, I think it likes not falling. It's usually how most of the (few) deaths from big snakes in the US have occured, they think they're falling and they wrap. Take something that isn't arboreal and put it high up and it's sure going to hang on. That doesn't mean it likes it.

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Originally Posted by WhiteSoxPyro83

I am not trying to sound disrespectful or anything, but how do you guys know pythons do not have emotions? Have you ever been a ball python? Do you know him? Does he call you at home?

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Plus when someone asks for an opinion on a public forum and then turns around and says they didn't because they don't like the results it irks me. Also in regard to that quote, OP have you been a ball python?

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

None of us will ever truly know what is going on in a snakes brain. We can only make inferences based on observation. That being said, there is no problem with either of your methods of snake interaction. Neither are wrong nor right. As long as the animal is not being overly stressed with handling there are zero issues that can arise out of handling your snake a bit more or letting it slither in the grass. I don't handle my snakes THAT much, but I have in the past and I had zero issues with feeding.


OP: I understand the point of your post, but try not to become upset when people don't share the same viewpoint and opinion. None of us are any less loving of our animals because of the way we do (or don't) handle them. Honestly, I don't think the snakes really care either way! As long as they have a nice cozy hide and a rat every week they will be healthy and happy.

This kind of topic is a matter of opinion. Anyone who looks down on a fellow keeper for their handling practices (assuming husbandry is spot on) is making this discussion unproductive. We are all animal lovers here!

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True facts.

If you'd like to believe the snake merely tolerates it, you have every right to believe that! I somewhat agree, but I'd also like to think that they don't really mind it that much.

Also, no recorded human deaths from a ball python. So while it isn't wise to put many larger snakes around your neck, a ball python will never be able to hurt you. I put my BPs around my neck all the time. They don't act stressed out, so why would I assume they are unhappy? They might not "like" it, but they sure don't hate it either.

It is okay to disagree, but I think your posts have become somewhat condescending, implying that the OP is stupid for his beliefs. That just isn't fair. He isn't harming his animal by handling it in the manner that he does.

No one has to agree on this topic because it is simply a matter of opinion. You are acting similarly to the OP by being disrespectful of his opinion. I do agree that the OP posted this thread expecting a different discussion than the one that transpired. I do agree that the OP became frustrated by the responses.

Be kind to one another! Kumbayaaaaaa