Idk what to do about her....:( What would you do?

Ok, so Ill give you a brief lowdown about Nadia... our little bee we adopted in January. She was born with a deformed jaw, and refused food until we got her. We forcefed her a few times, as she was almost emaciated.. then got her to eat fuzzy mice on her own. A BIG step. She began to gain weight. Then, starting in April, she began to refuse food again. At the end of April, she began to drool and bubble. I took her to my vet first week of May, and also asked him to take a good look at her jaw and assess how functioning it is, how bad the deformity was, etc., and what her future was going to be like. After a thorough inspection he said her bottom jaw is very weak from lack of calcium, since she is almost a year old and only able to eat fuzzy mice, which have a tiny undeveloped bone structure. Made sense. He also said the way the jaw was formed, it seemd to "wag" or just "float" there. I also took a close look, and on the bottom right, there almost no jaw there at all. Her tongue sticks out the side when she flicks it more than half the time, and its always partly open, never completely closing. The vet said she still has some fight to her, and to not give up yet. So, he prescribed 10 days of antibiotics just in case for the bubbling, and He told me to put her on a regimen of moistened pureed puppy food kibbles, tubefed every four days or so, to give her extra calcium and calories. In addition, he said DO NOT forcefeed her. Her jaw is already so weak forcefeeding isn't an option because it could break easily. Shes put on a little weight, but shes miserable. I hate having to tubefeed her :( its so stressful. Last night, I gave her a live fuzzy asf and watched her from across the room(shes in QT) She grabbed it! However, after an hour struggle to try and swallow it, she gave up and spit it out. Watching her really upset me. It was at this point I realized she cant "walk" the prey down her mouth and into her throat like a snake with a normally functioning jaw. Nadia will be a year old in a few weeks. She weighs 146 grams. Tubefeeding is so stressful for her but she puts up a good fight, and it seems like shes trying to survive. Im just so torn..:tears: My husband and I discussed this last night, but couldn't come to a decision. Should I euthanize her? Or should I keep doing as Im doing? I hate to see her soo stressed and miserable. I keep going back and forth. I don't now what to do. What would you do? Phone users, sorry for the "epic wall o' text":tears:.

If they're eating, shedding and pooping on their own, then im all for letting them carry on. She can't eat on her own. Tube feeding is probably stressful for her. It's like a person being on a feeding tube. Thats no way to live imo. I'd personally euthanize her.

Lady, you only have to satisfy yourself with your decision. If you got the impression that increasing calcium deposits in her jaw could eventually let her eat semi-normally, you might have to try that just to exhaust all potential options. Personally, I might hold onto hope for that. If tube feeding to supplement calcium intake got her to a point where she could take fuzzies, you could do your own version of gut-load by filling a pre-killed fuzzy's mouth with a calcium supplement paste.

Thats the thing.....i dont want her to eat "semi-normally" i want her to eat normally...on her own. She couldnt eat the asf crawler on her own. She wanted to, but couldnt. :(
Im going to try a mouse fuzzy tonight.
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it would be heartbreaking, but I would euthanize it. The stress is probably making the animal's life miserable. And it's gonna be a constant stress on you.

By semi-normally I didn't necessarily mean still with assistance. Again, I don't even know what's within the realm of possibility for her, but if calcium supplements strengthened her jaw enough that she could figure out her own way of eating by herself that might not be 100% normal, would you be happy?

I also understand that your situation is pretty tough right now, and the other question you have to ask yourself is whether what you could do for her with extensive care and effort is worth it, considering all of your other responsibilities.

I wouldn't give up on her just yet if she's still trying to eat. Did your vet say that increasing her calcium intake will help her jaw development? Did he suggest supplementing her water with liquid calcium since mouse fuzzies don't have much? I think you can also put a drop or two on the mouse fuzzy, or use the paste as was suggested.

I think im gonna give the calcium supplements a try on the fuzzy before i give up. She is putting out some effort to eat on her own. If thst doesnt help to the point where it strengthens her jaw enough to be able to consistently eat on het own, i unfortunately think euthanasia is best for her. But im at least going to try, because she is trying. Thanks Jen. Thanks everyone.

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I don't know if you have yet but I would have xrays done to make sure there are no other underlying health issues or deformities going on. Since she's still young and growing it can go either way with adding more calcium to her diet. Over time it can help to where her body starts to compensate and fix itself to a point where she's able to eat what would be normally for her. Or the deformity could get worse and just cause more issues.
For now I would give her a chance to see which way it goes. Continue with only tube feedings for now to give her jaw time to recover with out having to do much from feeding on her own. I would skip the dog food and this may seem gross to some but I would just get an old used blender and blend fuzzies, hoppers or what ever, maybe even an old meat grinder. To make your own raw slurry that you can keep on hand. Add some calcium (preferably real bones) with pedialyte, a vitamin pill and maybe every other feeding or so add something like Flukers Rept - Aid and see how she's doing a few months from now.
Since she'll be on antibiotics for a while a raw slurry made from whole animals will be a much better choice. Antibiotics kill both good and bad bacteria in the digestive system for both people and animals. This (whole prey) will help keep up her probiotics and aid in digestion, which means less stress on her body.

Shes actually already done her antibiotics. And the vet mentioned xrays, but he said its kinda pointless at this point in time, because we already know whats wrong. And as far as the raw slurry goes, Im already there ;) Im giving her raw ground chicken with the bones(a raw diet sold at the store for cats).

Keep us updated?

This is a rough position to be in...I hope she keeps fighting and improves for you!!

I would do euthanasia. I say that with the understanding that it's much easier said than done.

She was born with a deformed jaw, and no amount of calcium supplements will correct something like that. It's quite possible that it has become worse (or not better) over time because of her lack of calcium, but I think the vet was overlooking the fact that the deformity was present at birth.

That being said, I think you should exhaust every reasonable option if it will help you to feel better. I personally think that euthanasia is the only choice that makes sense, but only you can say what you would feel comfortable with.

And I would like to add that her "trying" is no more than her instinct to survive. I don't believe that snakes are self aware, therefore any desire they have to survive is purely instinctual. They are programmed to do their best to survive, regardless of whether it's practical or whether they have a life worth living. It unfortunately falls on the keeper to make the fine distinction between mere survival and a good quality of life.

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

And I would like to add that her "trying" is no more than her instinct to survive. I don't believe that snakes are self aware, therefore any desire they have to survive is purely instinctual. They are programmed to do their best to survive, regardless of whether it's practical or whether they have a life worth living. It unfortunately falls on the keeper to make the fine distinction between mere survival and a good quality of life.

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Sad, but true.

I'm sorry you have to go through this, Crystal. Always heartbreaking to potentially lose a scaly friend. At least you've done what you can, hope everything goes okay whatever your decision.

omg...you guys r gonna make me cry. And meowmeow, I do want her to have a quality of life. I don't want her to struggle to "merely survive". I want all my snakes to THRIVE. Which is why Im leaning towards euthanasia. Im trying really hard to accept this, but its extremely difficult. Ive worked so hard to get her to eat, to help her gain weight, to get her better....to basically increase her chance. When my husband agreed to try and "save" her, I didn't want to. I didn't want any part of his "pet project". I agreed with the breeder when he said she should probably be euthanized. However, Im the one whos been helping her. Feeding her, watching over her. Giving her shots. Checking her progress. Taking her to the vet. Unfortunately, shes prob going to end up there. And shes such an adorable little bee. Im hoping that we produce some this year, so itll help me cope. Thanks guys for your kind words.

I personally would euthanize. If an animal is deformed to that point I feel it's cruel to keep trying to make it live. I'm sorry.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

omg...you guys r gonna make me cry. And meowmeow, I do want her to have a quality of life. I don't want her to struggle to "merely survive". I want all my snakes to THRIVE. Which is why Im leaning towards euthanasia. Im trying really hard to accept this, but its extremely difficult. Ive worked so hard to get her to eat, to help her gain weight, to get her better....to basically increase her chance. When my husband agreed to try and "save" her, I didn't want to. I didn't want any part of his "pet project". I agreed with the breeder when he said she should probably be euthanized. However, Im the one whos been helping her. Feeding her, watching over her. Giving her shots. Checking her progress. Taking her to the vet. Unfortunately, shes prob going to end up there. And shes such an adorable little bee. Im hoping that we produce some this year, so itll help me cope. Thanks guys for your kind words.

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*hug*

I am very sorry you have to go through this. I know it isn't easy. Not every animal is meant to make it, and you have done well by her. In the end you have to take comfort knowing that you have done the best that you can.

Yes this was my "pet project " but Nadia we found out is about a year old. she did double in weight since we acquired her. I have yet to give up on her just yet. I thinking if I need to I will make a pinky smoothie and add some calcium to the mix a try and help her. she was eating fine before she got sick ( sadly was hopper sized mouse) but she was eating on her own.

This is a terrible decision to have to make. I had to make it myself this year. I had incubator issues as some of you know, and had a few hatchlings born with no eyes, as well as two born with deformed jaws and no tongue. I tried my best for all of them. One eyeless girl caught on superfast and she went to a new home months ago. One eyeless girl did not catch on, but a member here was willing to assist feed her for life and adopted her knowing this.

The two babies with deformed jaws were incapable of eating in their own. They simply could not swallow, much like your own girl. I assisted for a while, then had to move to force feeding. It upset them, it upset me, and the vet said there was no hope they would ever get better. One baby had no lower jaw bones at all, and no tongue. The second had a tiny bump of a lower jaw and no tongue. Eventually I had to admit I was keeping them alive for me, and not for them. And I finally let go. It was a terrible thing to have to do.

In the meantime, one of my pied clutches had an incubator spike AFTER hatching. They whole clutch suffered neurological problems for about a week, then all but one came out of it. Little het pied boy is severely messed up. He wobbles worse than any spider, ties himself in actual knots I have to untie. BUT he eats just fine, even if it takes him forever to get his malfunctioning muscles to allow him to strike and coil. He sheds, poos and grows just fine. He breaks your heart to watch him, but he's a little fighter and a sass bucket to boot. So, he is still here and still living each day the best he can.

There comes a time when we have to admit we are being selfish { and what good snake parent isn't?} and then sometimes we need to let go.

Gale

Did you see this? If you substitute chicken or rabbit and add calcium, you can make the portion sizes small enough that she might be able to eat them on her own or with minimal assistance from you.http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...de-Garter-Diet

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Did you see this? If you substitute chicken or rabbit and add calcium, you can make the portion sizes small enough that she might be able to eat them on her own or with minimal assistance from you.http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...de-Garter-Diet

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read that reay quick and I got sick to stomach reading that but it worth a try with Nadia ( but I use asf or mice lol )

The key to look at is to balance 3 things:

1–quantity of life for the animal

2–your desire for her to remain in your life

3–quality of life for the animal

as humans we are interested in the quantity of life for ourselves; however, for th animals in our care we must asses the quality of their life too. Normally nature takes care of this for the animal; an animal that is ill (which has no quality of life) is eliminated by predators.

what you must decide is where the line is drawn between the three factors above. Nobody should pressure you in either direction, and what's right for one person won't be right for another.

im sure you will come to the right decision in this regard

Well the wife and I decided that if she won't show signs of turning around by end of June We will have her put asleep.