New addition- Dumerils- concerned!!!

So I picked up a new purchase at the Baltimore repticon...just got home and as I was looking it over under a high beam light with some magnification before putting it into QT...(the lighting at the particular booth selling the dumerils I bought wasnt great)...I noticed he has a few very small scars along his back (they look like from rodents)...more worrying to me is that at the show he was alert, energetic and active...now his tongue flicks look weak and lethargic and instead of rapid full tongue flicks they only flick out the forked part up until the fork splits (so like 1/4 to 1/3) the tongue's normal flick length...also his belly feels and looks very bloated and empty..his belly scales also look and feel off (gonna try and get pics of everything today/tonight)...at least compared to my ball pythons...

as this is my first dumerils...while I am familiar and have educated myself on their basic husbandry the overall above mentioned observations have me very worried and concerned that they sold me a sick snake.

Thoughts? Comments? More info I need to supply or absorb myself?
Thanks!

I say lets see some pics. I hope he's ok. :(

need to unpack and get some things organized/cleaned so pics will be up in an hour or two...i hope...I dunno how im gonna show his bloated belly...

Yeah pix will help much!

Ball Pythons
0.2 Normals (Coilette and Mary Jane)
1.0 Spider Morph (Zeus)
1.0 Pastel (De Sol)

Boas
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Stella)
0.1 Hog Island BCI (Kiyoko)
0.1 Dumerils Boa (Gloria)
0.1 Yellow Anaconda (Serenity)
0.1 Albino Columbian BCI

Definitely need pics.

A couple of good shots that will help us help you is to first take a couple of pics of him laying naturally from above (looking down on the snake). Try to get the full body in the shot. This is actually the best way to see if he's bloated as he's in a more natural position. But also take a pic of you holding him upright vertically from the ground and the camera pointed at his belly. Lift and hold him gently and be sure to support his body weight. Have someone help by being fully ready to take the pic for you so you aren't holding him in that position any longer than necessary. Third, try to take a close up of the scars on his back.

Do your best to take the pictures in good lighting and in focus. :gj:

scar pics are taken already...still working on figuring out a way to get a good belly/bloated photo....really hard to take and its more by feel then by really super visuals...also scars are not my worry...this bloat is and the lethargic half ass tongue flicking...

incoming pics...lots....

Very faint but I tried to circle it...this is the weak half ass tongue flicks im seeing...not the fully extended flicking I see in all my BPs
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3296e4da.jpg

The scaring...this the best of the pics of it I can get...macro'd this...there are 3-5 small little spots on him including this one....all down his back directly in line with his spine or slightly off the spine

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps220bf9c3.jpg

Next is belly photos....tried to get the bloatiness and the weird middle of the belly scales double row of arched/fractured looking scales ( I really dont know how else to describe it)

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8c24eda0.jpg

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...psf7cd71db.jpg

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps50675aee.jpg

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...psfe367c55.jpg

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...psbf18e9c9.jpg


I know these arent the best...Ill try again to describe it to the best of my ability

So far I havent been able to catch this bloaty feeling/appearance in photos...when I run my hand down my BPs bellies they all feel muscular and solid...if I press I can press down a bit but my hand/fingers meet muscle resistance...on this Dumerils...there is no resistance to pressing down on his belly (the lower 50% I would say)...in some positions the bloat is visually obvious...in other positions the belly scales pull up away from his belly in a parallel line right down the middle of each belly scale (laterally up and down his belly...not horizontally through each scale)...I think there is a photo or 2 where this can be seen...so far he has not defecated or peed....but this feels like gas or something similar (part of me is thinking parasites? but his cloaca and oral cavity are clear and clean...I realize thats not always clinically significant depending on what it is but a noted observation nonetheless)...My gut instincts are telling me something is not right with this guy...I know thats the exact opposite of scientific and I hope I am wrong....but I just dont feel like I am.

He is easy to handle and doesnt seem flustered or bothered by the taking of photos or me poking and prodding him....

Sometimes, science has to be thrown out the window and you have to go with your gut. If your gut is saying there's something wrong, listen to it.

The scars are pretty notable and almost certainly rat bites. If they are healed, then they are nothing to worry about, although they may remain unsightly for sometime and may never actually disappear. Shame the seller didn't point them out. He had to have known they were there.

The belly could just be that the snake has some poo in there. The slow tongue worries me a bit. If you attempt to lay him on his back, does he fight you? Does he righten himself immediately?

If you are truly thinking something is off, I would monitor him carefully over the weekend, boost him temps a degree or two, don't feed him but do make sure he feels secure (deep substrate and a hide box or two), and leave him alone. Then first thing Tuesday morning, call your vet and make an appointment.

And keep us posted 'cause we'll worry too....

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

Sometimes, science has to be thrown out the window and you have to go with your gut. If your gut is saying there's something wrong, listen to it.

The scars are pretty notable and almost certainly rat bites. If they are healed, then they are nothing to worry about, although they may remain unsightly for sometime and may never actually disappear. Shame the seller didn't point them out. He had to have known they were there.

The belly could just be that the snake has some poo in there. The slow tongue worries me a bit. If you attempt to lay him on his back, does he fight you? Does he righten himself immediately?

If you are truly thinking something is off, I would monitor him carefully over the weekend, boost him temps a degree or two, don't feed him but do make sure he feels secure (deep substrate and a hide box or two), and leave him alone. Then first thing Tuesday morning, call your vet and make an appointment.

And keep us posted 'cause we'll worry too....

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Thanks for the insight/comments....the scars dont bother me at all...figured Id mention them though along with everything else...and no the seller never mentioned them which the more I deal with this poor little guy the more pissed off I am...he seems to have a GREAT personality and desposition...

The slow tongue worries me the most...While he may have poop in there...it would have to be a buttload (LOL)....and nothing there feels solid...it feels like gas or an empty space i guess?...he does fight a bit when i turn him over and does immediately right himself. The weird belly scale thing also concerns me a bit..

He is in my negative air pressure QT tank...on news paper with a UTH and overhead heat source for the hot spot...cool and fresh water...and will be monitored daily...and he has 2 hides in tehre with him...

Sounds good. We'll be pulling for him!

Only thing I'd change is to add some substrate. I normally would not suggest that for snakes in q/t or for any snake that might have something wrong with it, but Dumerils are naturally burrowing snakes and prefer to hide under their substrates. You could crumple up some newspaper so he could hide under that. Just trying to think of a few additional ways for him to feel secure. The more the snake can relax, the quicker he'll heal or fight off infection, etc. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

Sounds good. We'll be pulling for him!

Only thing I'd change is to add some substrate. I normally would not suggest that for snakes in q/t or for any snake that might have something wrong with it, but Dumerils are naturally burrowing snakes and prefer to hide under their substrates. You could crumple up some newspaper so he could hide under that. Just trying to think of a few additional ways for him to feel secure. The more the snake can relax, the quicker he'll heal or fight off infection, etc. :gj:

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Good call..thanks...I wasnt too sure about dums being burrowers or not...ill throw some cypress in there...

1. QT

2. Deep, burrow-able substrate. It's been a while since I've kept dumerils, but with my other burrowing snakes I use oak leaf litter. You'd be surprised the difference it makes.

3. Proper temps. He does not need high humidity. If it's at least 40%, he should be fine.

4. Cover the enclosure and put him in an area that receives no traffic.

5. Leave him be for a week. Any interaction should only be done to make sure he has water and his husbandry parameters are correct.

6. Do not feed him for two weeks. After he feeds and poops - have a fecal run.

If during this two week period his health deteriorates, take him to a vet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

1. QT

2. Deep, burrow-able substrate. It's been a while since I've kept dumerils, but with my other burrowing snakes I use oak leaf litter. You'd be surprised the difference it makes.

3. Proper temps.

4. Cover the enclosure and put him in an area that receives no traffic.

5. Leave him be for a week. Any interaction should only be done to make sure he has water and his husbandry parameters are correct.

6. Do not feed him for two weeks. After he feeds and poops - have a fecal run.

If during this two week period his health deteriorates, take him to a vet.

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Thanks!....so far im checked off to #5...just got him today to the week starts in 5 minutes after i had some cypress...If i cant get pure oak leaf litter any other recommendations?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OsirisRa32

Thanks!....so far im checked off to #5...just got him today to the week starts in 5 minutes after i had some cypress...If i cant get pure oak leaf litter any other recommendations?

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Magnolia litter works well.

A lot of the dendro supply places carry oak and magnolia litter.

hmmm...k...that might take some serious searching out where I live...any chance I can get a few more options?....would any of the repti bark or aspen or coconut stuff work?...some of eco earth stuff?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OsirisRa32

hmmm...k...that might take some serious searching out where I live...any chance I can get a few more options?....would any of the repti bark or aspen or coconut stuff work?...some of eco earth stuff?

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Dumerils will burrow in just about anything. However, with burrowing animals that are not quite fossorial, using leaf litter works wonders.

http://www.blackjungleterrariumsuppl...ia_p_1829.html

http://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php...t=7189&p=47086

Again, many of the dendro and other rain forest terrarium places sell magnolia and or live oak leaf litter. Also, many of the CA and SA cichlid supply places - especially apistogramma - will sell oak leaf litter for use in aquariums.

Awesome...sorry for the 20 questions but do very much appreciate the help!

I use newspaper, and she still burrows lol. Really no matter what you use, they will find a way to get under it!!

Yes, use the leaf litter if you can get it, but if not, aspen will do. I use aspen and my Dum doesn't mind in the slightest.


Skip's advice is perfect. Leave it to him to number and spell it out, lol... :gj:

I use cypress with both of my Dumeril's and they burrow like crazy in it. I'll try to get some pics of my big male's belly scales so you'll know what a normal Dumeril's belly should look like.

Here are a few pics of my adult male's stomach. Crappy shots I know, but he's a big, strong dude and wasn't really cooperating lol.

http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/...psd460eddd.jpghttp://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/...ps831600ba.jpghttp://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5582677a.jpghttp://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7bed1e18.jpghttp://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/...psb8c42a97.jpg

Thanks for the comparison...yeah something is DEFINITELY up with my guy then....

I have managed to ID the seller based on his location at the Baltimore Repticon booths and tables maps (stupid move on my part not writing it down on the back of his business card which I had done for all my other purchases at the Repticon)....also managed to find his business card, FB page and website....would it be prudent to contact him and let him know my concerns?

I mean the money is not my issue (75$) is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things..and I definitely should have noticed the scars (although they dont bother me at all)...

advice?

You only paid $75 for him?! That's awfully cheap for a Dumeril's. I paid $200 for each of mine.

When mine fight me a bit, their belly scales will have a crease in the middle like that though. And I don't really see too much wrong with his belly as far as being overly bloated.....looks more like he has a big turd in there lol. And also, I watched my male flicking his tongue for a few minutes, and he would sometimes only stick it out just past the fork. I kinda wonder if your guy is just in a bit of shock from the move.

Here's a few of the baby girl for comparison. She's only 1/3 the length and 1/20 the weight of the male lol, but you can still see what typical Dums look like.

http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/...psa9ac6bbd.jpghttp://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/...ps920318f2.jpghttp://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/...pscc9f2ae8.jpghttp://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/...ps41466225.jpghttp://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3a0b4c1a.jpg

I have no experience with Dumerils, but if you bought him from a repticon show then I would go back and have a talk with that vendor tomorrow.

Q. Are there restrictions about Wild-Caught Animals?


A. There is no restriction regarding the sale of legal, wild-caught animals. Exhibitors are not required to display any particular signage, but are required to disclose any pertinent information to interested guests, including whether a particular animal is wild-caught or captive bred.

That is copied straight from the repticon site. He failed to disclose pertinent information regarding the scars, also regarding the health of the animal:

Q. Are there any restrictions on the products or animals that can be sold at Repticon?

A. All animals must be healthy and legal to sell within the state. Vendors who intentionally and repeatedly offer illegal or unhealthy animals for sale may be banned from future shows.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neal

I have no experience with Dumerils, but if you bought him from a repticon show then I would go back and have a talk with that vendor tomorrow.

Q. Are there restrictions about Wild-Caught Animals?


A. There is no restriction regarding the sale of legal, wild-caught animals. Exhibitors are not required to display any particular signage, but are required to disclose any pertinent information to interested guests, including whether a particular animal is wild-caught or captive bred.

That is copied straight from the repticon site. He failed to disclose pertinent information regarding the scars, also regarding the health of the animal:

Q. Are there any restrictions on the products or animals that can be sold at Repticon?

A. All animals must be healthy and legal to sell within the state. Vendors who intentionally and repeatedly offer illegal or unhealthy animals for sale may be banned from future shows.

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Dumeril's are an endangered species and are illegal to export from Madagascar, which is their native environment. So, there is absolutely no danger that that is a wild-caught specimen.

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Originally Posted by rocknhorse76

Dumeril's are an endangered species and are illegal to export from Madagascar, which is their native environment. So, there is absolutely no danger that that is a wild-caught specimen.

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No but read the whole thing. Pertinent information can be whether or not the snake has serious scars, or health issues. Then in addition it also stated the health issues, all that has to be disclosed during the sale. It applies to WC an CB, that snake having serious scars should of been pointed out during the sale.

Oh right on. Yeah, definitely good info!

Hey, but at least they won't have to bother with asking about the wild-caught info lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rocknhorse76

Oh right on. Yeah, definitely good info!

Hey, but at least they won't have to bother with asking about the wild-caught info lol.

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Well just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's not WC, lol. But yea it's most likely not, a very slim chance if it was. It just sucks that they didn't disclose any health information or anything about the condition of the animal with the scars and what not. I'm assuming it was purchased at the Baltimore Repticon show which is the only show going on right now, yesterday & today.

I avoid certain breeders at the shows, because I've known people to have major issues with some breeders, and I'm hoping he didn't get it from one of those.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rocknhorse76

You only paid $75 for him?! That's awfully cheap for a Dumeril's. I paid $200 for each of mine.

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My bf got his Dum for $70 at an expo last year; I've seen babies for as low as $60 at expos within the past year or so. It seems like ~$100 is the norm now a days for babies, at least around my area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OsirisRa32

I mean the money is not my issue (75$) is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things..and I definitely should have noticed the scars (although they dont bother me at all)...

advice?

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I would let them know: if the snake was sold unwell then it should be brought to the attention of the seller.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

My bf got his Dum for $70 at an expo last year; I've seen babies for as low as $60 at expos within the past year or so. It seems like ~$100 is the norm now a days for babies, at least around my area.



I would let them know: if the snake was sold unwell then it should be brought to the attention of the seller.

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Also depending on if the seller is reputable or not, which I'd put my money on not because they didn't disclose any information to you, he may try to deny ever selling you that snake. If you talk to the seller, and he refuses to do anything or acknowledge anything, go to the Repticon staff. They may of had other issues with him and he could be forced to exit the show and not be allowed back in further shows. It all starts with reporting to the people that run the show though, because if they don't know then they can't really do much.

Both of mine were established yearlings that were great feeders, so to me the extra money was worth it knowing they would actually eat lol. My newest one is from Jared at Reptile Mogul in Tempe, AZ. I've gotten two boas from him now, and have zero issues with either one.

I'd definitely keep an eye on him though, and if health problems arise soon I'd bring it up with the breeder and Repticon. Vendors know better than to sell unhealthy animals, but unfortunately some do it anyway and hope they aren't called out.

Your boa probably just has a massive poop. Maybe the seller didn't provide heating under the display at the show. Sometimes if stuff isn't digesting properly it can cause gas to build up. If in a week your boa hasn't pooped, I would think about giving it a soak.

Sounds like the seller was kind of sucky either way though!

Maybe try taking a video of the slow tongue flick. I find my Dumerils seems like a slow motion snake compared to my balls. She puts her tongue out only a little bit (mostly) but every now and then she'll extend it fully. Definitely not the same as a ball python, that's for sure.

Thanks guys but unfortunately I dont have the time or budget for another tank and a half of gas to get there again today...its 2.5-3 hours from where I live.

The 75$ to 200$ difference bothers me now that I think about it....makes it seem like they were trying to pawn off a possible sick or unhealthly animal...Repticon does have healthy animal only with vet certs kinda policy in place so I am going to give it another few days to try and determine if its just a big bloated poop belly or some thing worse...then my first step would probably be to contact Repticon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neal

Well just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's not WC, lol. But yea it's most likely not, a very slim chance if it was. It just sucks that they didn't disclose any health information or anything about the condition of the animal with the scars and what not. I'm assuming it was purchased at the Baltimore Repticon show which is the only show going on right now, yesterday & today.

I avoid certain breeders at the shows, because I've known people to have major issues with some breeders, and I'm hoping he didn't get it from one of those.

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If you want to PM me any names you avoid....that would be awesome...I will not ever be supporting this particular person in any breeding or businesses they run again...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neal

Also depending on if the seller is reputable or not, which I'd put my money on not because they didn't disclose any information to you, he may try to deny ever selling you that snake. If you talk to the seller, and he refuses to do anything or acknowledge anything, go to the Repticon staff. They may of had other issues with him and he could be forced to exit the show and not be allowed back in further shows. It all starts with reporting to the people that run the show though, because if they don't know then they can't really do much.

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He sold my friend a snake as well so I have 3 other witnesses that were with me...and without naming this person yet...breeding isn't the only reptile based business/venture they seem to be heavily involved in...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neal

Also depending on if the seller is reputable or not, which I'd put my money on not because they didn't disclose any information to you, he may try to deny ever selling you that snake. If you talk to the seller, and he refuses to do anything or acknowledge anything, go to the Repticon staff. They may of had other issues with him and he could be forced to exit the show and not be allowed back in further shows. It all starts with reporting to the people that run the show though, because if they don't know then they can't really do much.

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I agree with this - you aren't "tattling" you are reporting. Sometimes for the good of everyone, we have to do things that we aren't too comfortable doing. But try and talk to the seller first - you never know, he may in fact be ok. Sometimes crap happens and he may yet find a way to make it right. At least give him the opportunity. Then if he denies anything or doesn't resolve it to your satisfaction, don't hesitate to report him to Repticon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rocknhorse76

Both of mine were established yearlings that were great feeders, so to me the extra money was worth it knowing they would actually eat lol. My newest one is from Jared at Reptile Mogul in Tempe, AZ. I've gotten two boas from him now, and have zero issues with either one.

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This is why Rocknhorse's babies were a bit more. The price goes up on any snake as it grows.

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Originally Posted by OsirisRa32

Thanks guys but unfortunately I dont have the time or budget for another tank and a half of gas to get there again today...its 2.5-3 hours from where I live.

The 75$ to 200$ difference bothers me now that I think about it....makes it seem like they were trying to pawn off a possible sick or unhealthly animal...Repticon does have healthy animal only with vet certs kinda policy in place so I am going to give it another few days to try and determine if its just a big bloated poop belly or some thing worse...then my first step would probably be to contact Repticon.

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I wouldn't worry a bit about how much you paid for him. $75 is fine. I bought my 5-star female with high pink color and perfect rosette pattern for $75!! She was about 6 months old and well-established, but still young. And perfect in every way - although she didn't eat for the entire first month I had her, lol.......

And I got my Dumeril's for free! So price is not always indicative of quality.

Brief update...

He peed (urates and liquid)...cleaned his tank and added about 3 inches of eco earth moistned and mixed with reptile bark...to hold over until better substrate arrives...His belly is still bloated and easily compressed to the touch...belly scales still have raised ridges down the middle.

Did you ever wander if maybe they just fed it too much? or maybe even just a too big prey maybe being in there? I see it looks bloated, so I wouldn't wait TOO long to take it to the vet if it doesn't clear up soon. As for the scars, sadly, it does happen sometimes, but just like with my hog island, even with her surgery scar on her nose, I still love her the same!!!

The seller mentioned it had been about a week since he last ate....doubt its a prey item issue...my gut is telling me this is more then some poop filled snake...all I can say is this isnt something that is easily documented by photo/pic... My roommate who was with me at the time of purchase has looked and held the snake and agrees...(i realize that isnt much to some people here but it matters to me).

Then if you're really concerned, go see a vet, they will x-ray probably and tell you what's up.

First I would try a swim in a tepid bath, though.

ill give him the initial week of adjustment then try a bath...i want to keep the stress levels as low as possible for a week....hes in QT and Ive been checking on him slowly/quietly once an evening before bed. So far hes been burrowed under the substrate and small hide under the hot spot...Ill contact my vet in the AM to touch base about an xray or fecal culture.


Thanks guys!

I hope hes ok! Maybe hes holdin on to a lake in there? Which vendor did you get him from?

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

I hope hes ok! Maybe hes holdin on to a lake in there? Which vendor did you get him from?

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I would prefer not to name names until I have to...Baltimore Repticon is all I am comfortable telling you right now

Update?

no poop...so far three separate solid white urates spread over a 2 day period....prefers hides to burrowing even after I added some nicely mixed dendro type burrowing substrate...will be trying to feed next wednesday (1.5 week mark)...check on him once a day when I wake up...really no change I guess?