RHP and an UTH?

Hello all,
i want a T8 enclosure, and plan to get a proproducts rhp. Is an uth necessary with a rhp, or would i be fine with just a rhp?

Thanks,
Tom

You would also be fine with a UTH. They RHP does the same thing. RHP can be tricky to balance. I would suggest saving the cost of the RHP and the operational costs of running one and spend that on a better t-stat.

Thanks. My plan was to get a RHP from ProProducts and a Herpstat thermostat. Do you think i would be ok without the uth?

Yes or visa versa. IMO RHP do not belong in terrestrial enclosures they do not generate horizontal gradients but vertical ones, you end up setting the temp for the top of a hide and have to take what you get on the floor. They cost more to buy and use more electricity. Save your money radiant heat panels and radiant heat tape are the same, they do the exact same job the exact same way. No difference at all. The low density UTH are safer and less problematic. All around easier.

thanks.
how would i go about installing an uth to a T8?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by starman87

thanks.
how would i go about installing an uth to a T8?

---

I'm not sure how the T8 is setup, but when you buy an UTH they usually come with 4 clear little things that you stick on the corners to lift it up, though I didn't use the corners because of the weight all going to the middle, that gives the lift so the cord can fit.

I'll explain what I mean.

Say this is the tank: ------------------- so instead of putting them o--------------------o, I put them -----o--------------o------, or something around that. But also the aquariums have a lip because of the plastic, if the T8 is completely flat then it may not work even with those clear things.

Depends on the uth it would just fasten to the outside bottom. Some need to be taped (Ultratherm bulk heat tapes like flexwatt) others are self adhesive. The thermostat probe is best placed between the heat source and the enclosure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thanks Kites,
when the time comes i'll try my luck with an Ultratherm.

...... it was easier for me to use both...needless to say i'm not using a t8 ...a determining factor would be the temp of the room your enclosure will be in . You may find that correct ambient temps with just a uth may be difficult to reach in a cooler room . I keep mine in a room that stays 70-72 degrees year round so the rhp helps me keep my ambient temps correct. Since I have my rhp set to run at 81 degrees the hottest spot anywhere is 90.1 degrees ( on top of the hide ). If I didn't use a uth for my hot spot I'd probably have a bad headache trying to create it with the rhp alone . just my two sense and may not be the best way but for me it's most stable way I've ever had to keep my temps correct.

This is one of the issues with radiant heat period it is poorly understood. Radiant heat panels produce radiant heat UTH also produce radiant heat. Radiant heat by definition does not heat air it heats objects which will then heat air in directly. This is why radiant heat systems are used to heat tables in out door cafes and seats in rinks. They do not heat the air.

The trouble comes in when people think that if they place a thermometer probe under the panel they are measuring the air, they are not they are measuring the surface of the probe. The only way is to shield a cool probe with a sheet of something white (like with card paper isn't enough) with 2-4 inches of clearance (to the probe). Then wait for the probe to warm up and stabilize. RHP and UTH are good for a few degrees of air temps but that is it. If you cannot get a UTH to generate a correct hot spot it is likely too much substrate too thick a bottom of the enclosure (wood usually) or too low wattage for the air temps. RHP are exactly like the sun it heats objects not air. RHP can be tricky because as you alter the cage items it changes the way they heat, dark matte objects heat faster than light shiny ones. They can also foul IR gun measurements as well. They work super well in arboreal set ups as they do exactly what you expect but not in terrestrial set ups everything is the wrong direction.

My RHPs are working well for me, they do exactly as Kitedemon stated, heat objects not air, its simple physics. What I do is placed the probe dangling about half way down the back wall of my 36x24x14 enclosure on the cool end and it works great.

....that's why my probe is at the complete opposite end of the enclosure from my rhp ...... there is no issue with getting a correct hot spot with the uth .

I have a test enclosure (tinkering is a fav passtime) I after reading some using the probe on the cool side tried it. Complete fail I ended up with over 97 degrees on the hot side floor (103 hide top) and 71 on my cool side I simply cannot fathom how that is supposed to regulate anything as the rhp heats surfaces and the probe is no where near the heated area. It makes no sense at all. If someone can explain how to prevent dramatic over heating with this method I am all ears!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

.... what was the rhp set to on the thermostat ??

78 never got there ran 100% all the time. Over heated the hot side and under the cool


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

I have a test enclosure (tinkering is a fav passtime) I after reading some using the probe on the cool side tried it. Complete fail I ended up with over 97 degrees on the hot side floor (103 hide top) and 71 on my cool side I simply cannot fathom how that is supposed to regulate anything as the rhp heats surfaces and the probe is no where near the heated area. It makes no sense at all. If someone can explain how to prevent dramatic over heating with this method I am all ears!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

I usually try not to assume that because I don't understand how something works that it doesn't. This is how I think it works for me. My apartment is kept around 75 (bit warmer than 71), I set my on/off thermostat to 78 in the location described above. The RHP kicks on and heats the objects below until enough heat is cast off to turn off the tstat. Sometimes the probe directly under, on top of the substrate reads up to 100 or so but it does not stay that temperature if something comes between it, my hand or a snake. The snake can go to the warm end at say 82 degrees with the RHP on and soak up enough energy to warm up to 84 (for example) and then move away when it wants to. One of my snakes prefers to stay in the hide on the warm side after it has eaten and I measure the temps in there at around 85 or so usually. I think the on/off tstat also helps prevent overheating in the case that a snake does not move to thermoregulate, but if that is the case there may be other problems with the animal as well.

This is just my limited understanding of how it works and observation of how it has worked well for me. For a detailed conversation about it I would call Bob at Pro-Products because he seems to enjoy discussing the dynamics of heat in detail. Cheers.

When I was messing around with my RHP I had it set up with the herpstat probe dangling about an inch down from the center.

It got well over 160F on the surface of the RHP (Confirmed by the other herpstat probe and a temp gun) This was while the probe controlling it was set to only 90F. Never quite figured that one out. I mean it makes sense the surface would be hotter than the probe an inch below reads but still...

I just use Flexwatt with my T8, it comes with the groove for 11" tape and a slot for a probe.

.... it may have taken mine a day or two ( set at 81 ) but once at 81 and the thermostat starts pulsing the temps on the hot side start dropping .... could just be a combo of many different factors that my temps seem to balance ok ....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ewaldrep

I usually try not to assume that because I don't understand how something works that it doesn't. This is how I think it works for me. My apartment is kept around 75 (bit warmer than 71), I set my on/off thermostat to 78 in the location described above. The RHP kicks on and heats the objects below until enough heat is cast off to turn off the tstat. Sometimes the probe directly under, on top of the substrate reads up to 100 or so but it does not stay that temperature if something comes between it, my hand or a snake. The snake can go to the warm end at say 82 degrees with the RHP on and soak up enough energy to warm up to 84 (for example) and then move away when it wants to. One of my snakes prefers to stay in the hide on the warm side after it has eaten and I measure the temps in there at around 85 or so usually. I think the on/off tstat also helps prevent overheating in the case that a snake does not move to thermoregulate, but if that is the case there may be other problems with the animal as well.

This is just my limited understanding of how it works and observation of how it has worked well for me. For a detailed conversation about it I would call Bob at Pro-Products because he seems to enjoy discussing the dynamics of heat in detail. Cheers.

---

I have spent 1 month (maybe more) mucking about with this method. That leads me to fail to understand the principal, the fact logically it makes no sense confirms it. Your set up is a failure in my eyes as well, 100ºF on the substrate given that you should ideally be targeting 90ºF. That is ten degrees too high IMO. That makes the top of the hot hide a lot hotter correct? IMO nothing the snake can contact for more than a moment should be over 94ºF. Yes the substrate cools quickly if the snake come between it so that makes the snake 100º. They are not basking animals if your animal is basking (as you describe) this is hugely unnatural.

mackynz, that is how mine behaves as well. I have been forcefully told that this is the way it is supposed to work (in a debate about how efficient RHP are) I suggested that this demonstrates they are very inefficient. I still firmly believe they are not efficient as they need at very high temps to deliver correct temps. (mine loses over 70ºF ,155º to deliver 90º) compared to my UTH (same enclosure) that runs at 94º and delivers 90ºF

I sent Bob a very technical email a while back and never got a response I sent a second email a few weeks later, and had a friend (in the US) ask my questions for me and still never got an answer. Still waiting, it has been 8 months I guess.

100 is actually the black probe on top of the substrate, the aspen reads much lower, I used that because it would be the highest temp. I have a hard time understanding what you are trying to say, but the snake does not heat up to 100 on contact with a surface that is not a direct source of energy...
As far as basking goes, I don't only have bp's, as you can see in my signature. My bps do prefer to stay in the hides, one boa does, and the other boa prefers to stay out of the hides and stays half buried in the substrate.

My cage temps work great for me, my snakes seem healthy and happy, eat, move about, humidity stays great so what you consider a failure I consider a success, so be it.

That is fair no I did not notice the sig. I know little about boas. I know Royals. Black clearly gets warmer than white (white enclosures I have likely drop the ambient temps.) But if the snake is dark it will warm like the probe to my mind (speaking of royals and in general) they should not be able to access 100º at the hot spot. 94ºF max. the set up you have the only way to drop the hot spot is to change the wattage right? (or alter the ambient air) but a ten degree drop is dramatic (68) That is the part I fail to get, RHPs are very inefficient to heat air there is a ton of thermal loss. (78-100) 22ºF in the difference. I am trying to understand but you have described the problem (to a lesser degree) of what I have found in my case the panel is not hot enough to get the ambients correct and the hot spot is already too hot.

You describe a correct ambient temp with a too hot or at the very least questionable hot spot.

How are you measuring the substrate if not with a probe? IR guns can be quite erratic under RHPs.

I am actually trying to understand not trying to be an alarmist. I just failed to get this type of set up working at all.

Cool. First, is stated that my temps can get up to 100, as well as the fact that my RHPs are on on/off thermostats so they do not stay that temp constantly (also known as wattage change). I agree that the snake will warm like the probe does, over time of exposure. The snake is able to move away after the desired temp is achieved for whatever physiological processes may be going on.

RHPs do not heat ambient temps, we both know this as I have read your other posts. What I have done is included a concrete skull in the bp cages because I know they are less likely to bask and they will absorb and release energy that can help stabilize temps overall. My boas I don't mind allowing the to experience a greater range of temps.

I also measure temps with a combination of instruments, my setup is similar to that of Aaron's (the serpent merchant) with acccurite thermometer and IR gun. My boas cages read 78 on the accurite against the wall but the hides read 80 on the cool side, which I take as the ambient because thermal loss will be greatest near the barrier (wall of the enclosure).

I tend to think of the hot spot differently than you appear to do as well. I think of the hot spot under the RHP as a warmer area of the enclosure that the snake can seek out when it needs more heat. It is greatly unlike a hot skillet, but the animal will absorb little energy from the surface before it cools and most of the energy will come from above (as stated, snake starting at 82 and warming to 84 or whatever desired temp). I also stated that the IR temps inside the hides read mid to high 80s inside the hides (where bps usually stay, as well as my one boa).

Please let me know if anything I have described is unclear as I have been off work for a while tonight and it has coincided with consumption of etoh :)

I have had great success with ProProducts RHPs in T8s. They indeed impact ambient temps and the gradient is gained simply by having the RHP on one side of the enclosure. My thermostat probes are placed half-way up the back wall, on the warm side. If my T10 ever arrives, I'll see how it works in that. The only issue I have had is that the fluorescent bulbs heat the cage too much during warm weather.

Ok I don't see it that way. I prefer to not rely on an animal to insure that it doesn't over heat. There is a long track record of burns and over heating even where a cool spot was provided. This is my perspective I guess we will never see eye to eye. I prefer to stay on the below 94 max surface temps for me that means the hide top.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When you order your T-8 you have the option to also buy Flexwatt. It comes pre-wired and ships with your cage. Put the cage together first, then flip it over so the bottom is on top. Lay the Flexwatt flat where you intend to have your warm spot and set something heavy on top of it so it doesn't slip or have someone help you keep it in place while you tape. Use foil tape along the three edges and let the electrical clamps protrude out the back as you don't want your cage sitting on them.

Also, AFTER you order your cage AP will email you to confirm your order is correct. If you don't get an email within 24 hrs, CALL. Ali is a peach and great on the phone. If you plan on using your enclosure for a long time (it may outlast your snake), tell them to cut the probe channel in all 3 locations (they do it for free): center, left and right. This way if you ever need to re-arrange you'll have three separate places where the flexwatt can go. And it's not necessary to elevate the T-8s. Since your flexwatt with be controlled by a thermostat and won't get over 95, it's safe to place on most wood and plastic surfaces. I have multiple stacked T8s (they also come with stacking pins) and have never had any heat related issues.