Ball Pythons through Major League Reptiles eyes

I hope everyone can put their emotions aside for this post and read it with an open mind and open heart for their love of these animals. I'm not trying to rewrite the book. I just want people for a moment to step into my world on how I see ball pythons.

The biggest difference I see between myself and really anyone I've ever known, is that while most people look at ball pythons for markers that they feel are genetic, I look for markers that are NOT genetic.

In 3 years I've gone through over 100,000 imported ball pythons. I've spent weeks looking at each one closely. Taking in everything I could. Deformities, spinal kinks, hard bellies, bug eyes, small heads, weight, skin, how these correlated with one other and their appearance. How did the pattern look with these deformities? What was the cause? They were incubated in their natural environment, how could they look like that? What is the pattern doing during development? Did it stop? Did it go too far? Why? Is this genetic? Is it not genetic?

I've studied every mutation that has proven genetic that I could find, and I've studied them HARD. Even more, I've studied every ball python that has failed to proven genetic even HARDER. I've been able to compile data that has allowed my eyes to see ball pythons in a whole different light. At the end of the day, I really haven't expected anyone to see it the same way either. I've sat back and really tried to think if anyone has done this before. I've talked to long time experienced breeders, people involved in large amount of ball pythons, and I haven't found anyone. No one who truly took the time to evaluate appearance vs. genetics that I seem to have and thoroughly enjoyed doing. I think most would simply run through imports, looking for the best looking animal, so they could make the most money on. While I love finding beautiful imports, I've spend my time analyzing all ball pythons. I actually spend more time looking at the deformed balls, than I do on the beautiful morph that I know is going to sell to the world in 3-4 years.

In my studying, I've found that a large portion of ball pythons take on an appearance outside their genetics. It's actually quite common, and frustrating for someone looking for cool genetics. Seeing something beautiful and knowing it had a developmental issue frustrates me. However, what even frustrates me more is knowing that it could actually be a mutation that had a developmental issue and I'm not going to know. I actually proved a morph from an incubation issue animal last year. Babies were a new morph that looked nothing like the parent. Ralph did the same dinking around years ago breeding a couple labyrinth types together. We both thought it was pretty cool that we have a new morph that looks nothing like the original animal that had developmental problem appearance. Sometimes, I try to do some reverse engineering and see if there is a possibility that this "developmental issue import" is actually a morph. More times than not, I move on knowing I probably don't want to work with it knowing it didn't take on the appearance of it's genetics, and I don't want to sell it to someone who will think it is either.

In the captive bred world, I actually see great examples of morphs that have taken on an appearance outside their genetics. I keep to myself as to not dampen the breeders outlook on their beautiful hatchling. At the same time, I see amazing examples of morphs, and see that it actually does have it's genetic appearance, and often times I know it actually has another gene involved. That has been the beauty in my recent run at ball pythons. I've actually been able to obtain new genetics from other breeders in the CB world who have failed to see the difference. It's something I actually wish more people could do, because it's fun knowing you got something more for your buck right?

Seeing how every ball python has genetics that it will pass onto the offspring. So how does this all relate to the http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...e-Pieds-(Jinx) thread and what I've learned?

Well the problem is people are interpreting that het pieds can look like a normal. But, I've seen no one mentioned that maybe its the normal that can look like a het pied. Now if that confuses you, let me say it again. It's not a het pied looking like a normal, its a normal looking like a het pied. While het pieds have phenotypic expression which would make it a inc-dom mutation, so do other ball pythons that many would simply refer to as a "normal". Grasping the fact that all balls have their own genes is hard to comprehend. Sometimes, in the wild genes line up and make a super form. Two subtle (often referred to as hets) breed together and make a super that someone can actually recognize as a morph. Lets use super sentinel, super paint, neo, super speckled, nazca morph for example. Here we have 5 morph names which actually expresses the same in super form. The heterozygous form is very mute, and could be referred to as a het, but these have all been referred to as inc-dom. Why? They are newer age morphs where people have looked at them with a closer eye than they did with the Pied back in the day. There has been a huge difference in understanding ball python in a very short period of time. Another example is the arroyo/rio project I used in the pied thread. It's not that arroyos aren't visual, it's just that sometimes what someone would refer to as a normal can look like an arroyo. Now that's the point I'm trying to make.

I can show off a new yellow import, and someone might call it a pastel. Even though it proves to be not a pastel, someone recognized it as such because it was yellow. It wasn't until you really analyzed the small differences when you can tell them apart. So what I'm saying here is that even though two snakes can look the same, they are different genetically. So even though a normal takes on the appearance of a het pied, and many do, it doesn't mean a het pied is a normal. It simply means there are normals who have their own genetic expression as well.

Saying a normal has het pied tracks, so then het pieds must be normal is incorrect when it comes down to pure genetic definition. Different mutations can take on the same phenotypic appearance, but be completely different genetically. The only difference here with HETS is that the expression is subtle and can resemble a larger majority of low expression mutations (AKA NORMALS).

I understand this is quite different than most people view ball pythons. In no way shape or form am I pressing this on anyone to view the same way. This is simply how I view ball pythons in the world. I'm different I guess. There are no normals in my book. Maybe I'm crazy, but I can tell you that I've been able to train my eyes at seeing ball pythons to a different level. When I go through ball pythons, it's not like I'm keeping 100,000 imports and saying I'm going to prove them all as different mutations and take over the world. I understand that phenotypic expression is what sells in this industry, so I select ball pythons that have a different visual appearance that is represented accurately based on their appearance, and will genetically pass it down to their offspring. That's my definition of a morph that goes into the books. Sometimes they are subtle, but I honestly believe with selective breeding, many super forms will continue to pop up in this industry for years to come that will blow people away if they look towards these subtle morphs.

I'm sure many people will continue to view ball pythons in a simple form. Pretty, ugly, dark, light, yellow, orange, busy, or reduced. I know at the end of the day, beauty sells. It's hard to convince anyone in somethings potential without seeing the beauty already. Especially in this industry, and I don't think that is going to change. I just hope people can look deeper at these ball pythons and appreciate everything they have to offer us. I think if you want to make this a business, I would urge you to look hard, and you will be able to benefit more in your future.

I've been doing this since 2007 and it is surprising how far I've come in a short period of time. When I retired from professional baseball, I transferred my passion into this field. I've been able to broaden my ability because I didn't stick to the book. I still have aspirations to work back in baseball in the front office, scouting, coaching, or player development, so I really have no idea how this business is going to end up for me. I've never counted on this to be my lifeline and I've done it because it truly has been fun. I've enjoyed what I've been able to accomplish in a short period of time. It's great to earn the respect of others who have done this for a long time, but even more frustrating to see others avoid you because you do something differently. I hope this industry stays strong for a long time. I really do. I believe it's going to come down to people appreciating the small things.

Thanks for taking the time to read feel free to comment, encourage, or argue my view. Again, its not meant to be anything other than a perspective post.

Brant

Very interesting read and point of view. I for one, enjoyed it and the peek into how you look at all the ball pythons you go through. Well written!

A great read and very interesting write up!

Very insightful and encouraging!

Well said, Brant.

Very well said, and a better insight on what's going on.

Very well said Brant. I really like how you said that you weren't afraid to go against the grain of the norm, that's how all great things get started. Something as simple as looking hard and giving something a chance can prove monumental. Just look at us for instance, the 13 Colonies believed in a simple idea and look what became of that. I'm not saying every snake that is a little off is going to chance everything, but what if it did? If no one took the chance how would we ever know. Something that just came to mind if the orangebelly, everyone says it's just another yellowbelly and that they are the same. But only a handful of combos are listed, what if it reacts differently from yellowbelly in other morphs? We won't know until someone tries and shares the outcome. I think Brant has a great outlook on this and it's one that should be applied more often. In the words of Journey "Don't stop believing"

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Originally Posted by angeluscorpion

Very well said Brant. I really like how you said that you weren't afraid to go against the grain of the norm, that's how all great things get started. Something as simple as looking hard and giving something a chance can prove monumental. Just look at us for instance, the 13 Colonies believed in a simple idea and look what became of that. I'm not saying every snake that is a little off is going to chance everything, but what if it did? If no one took the chance how would we ever know. Something that just came to mind if the orangebelly, everyone says it's just another yellowbelly and that they are the same. But only a handful of combos are listed, what if it reacts differently from yellowbelly in other morphs? We won't know until someone tries and shares the outcome. I think Brant has a great outlook on this and it's one that should be applied more often. In the words of Journey "Don't stop believing"

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And... now I'm singing Journey...Thanks :P

Good stuff!

Even if folks do not 100% agree with you, hopefully they will at least step back and take a better look for themselves.

In my response to the Pied topic I referenced the possibility normals could look het pied. :-) but yeah, good write-up!

Be careful Brant, a fresh perspective can be threaten the structural integrity of the box! :)--<

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Originally Posted by DWolfeHerp

Be careful Brant, a fresh perspective can be threaten the structural integrity of the box! :)--<

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Lol, I'm giving away all my secrets Dan!

Awesome post Brant! We will see how good your attention to detail is around June 10th lol... Hope your season is full of new exciting morphs..

Great read Brant! Anyone who thinks Brant doesn't know what he is talking about should visit his "Starting Lineup" page. Mind blowing!! Can't wait for round 2 of the import prospects:O

Definitely love the import prospects page as well, and to be honest I can't ever understand why you'd sell what looks like it would have a good chance at proving to be a genetically inhereted trait!

excellent post Brant... :gj:

Wonderful and intelligent words Brant :gj:

And Dan... I love the way your mind works

Its great to see someone step up to the plate and take the time to inform us all from a different approach. The whole ball python market had to be shaped the way it was, in the beginning to form a "market" of sorts; which is why we are so accustomed to the word "normal" or "wild type". Yellow must be pastel, reduced, black back, etc, etc. Now that it has gotten so unbelievably big, the community continues to learn and expand to where we (and Brant of course) are today. No two ball pythons are the same, so whats so NORMAL about them anyways?? .. Just because an animal doesnt have bright pinks and yellows doesnt mean it does not have its own personal, one of a kind genetic make-up! which is why i am also fascinated by seeing the varieties in animals that dont catch the eye as some of the others do.

Great read props to the Op!

Thanks for sharing some of the thoughts that spin through my head Brant, very well said.
I love working with subtle genetics as much if not more so than the highly visual ones.
Eyes open, mind open, keep on truckin ... :gj:

Very interesting, though I don't see some things the same way, it certainly is food for thought. Thanks for taking the time to write.

Excellent post! I am so new to this world that it is nice to learn different approaches. I for one don't want to get overly hung up on precise terms and shove every little thing into a box with a definition. For me It would become unpleasant. I appreciate the science and at the end of the day we see the results of breeding. The results are the same wether or not (pied or any other controversial morph) is labelled recessive, co-Dom or incomplete Dom. These labels are tools to me. But sometimes the tool can be improved or stand the test of time.

Like most people introduced into the reptile world it is something new and exciting to see and interact with. Honestly I never thought I would even want more than one. Now a year later I want to try breeding. I love these animals and can't imagine not having as a pet. I can't see myself relying on it as a business but I love the animals and the community (with some exceptions). I see the labels as tools to help me understand what is going on but I like your approach Brant. It seems a little more organic and enjoyable. So little is still known about so many animals, keeping a loose grip on current perspectives leaves room for growth and development.

I was of course drawn to the crazy looking morphs in the beginning but now I am really starting to appreciate more subtleties in simple morphs and starting to appreciate the very subtle morphs (though my eye is not great yet). I also really want to keep a "normal" when I hatch one. I think it will be nice to have a loose reference point. I still have a long way to go but I really like developing my eye for these guys and I wish more posts like this were made by people at all experience levels (without all the defensive and aggressive emotions that seem to enter and kill a would be great discussion. Tooany get hung up on what's right and wrong.

Wow I always seem to overwrite my posts. Sorry for that.

Thanks Brant!

Thanks for the post on your thoughts. It is interesting to see how a person with success has worked his way there. I found your posts on the Het Pied thread helpful and worthwhile. It will be interesting to see how the Ball Python community continues to react to the new information and observations being made about established morphs.

i know this is old but hey, it made me not feel alone about a lot of questions i had about some of the genetics in bp's. I'm new and have a decent understanding on genetics and a few of the terms confused me, as well as what is deemed recessive, co-dom/dominate, and how some of the different genes work with each other. i have the same feelings on a lot of it and want to thank you for this write up and pointing me to the "what are pieds" post. . . very well written and i really see how you are looked up to in this community, your understanding and the way you look at things shows up in your animals. keep it up :gj:

When i took advanced anatomy in high school a while back, my teacher said that every human has thousands of mutations within their own genetics that are truly unique to that person. The thing is we are so accustomed to people looking different or the same as each other that we dont see it as a mutation, just how that person looks (hair, eyes, height, skin color). This can be transferred to the world of ball pythons where im sure every snake as multiple unique muations, its only the rare 1 in a million that has a mutation that stands out to the eye. Just imagine how many morphs are hidden behind a normal looking paint job, but may contain a super form . Theyre just to far spread apart in the world that they do get to breed with each other.

Many times its just dumb luck where someone breeds two normals with 2 different hidden mutations that combine to show something fancy.

The cool thing is that i believe the number of morphs will always be unlimited because every new baby will have new mutations that could be possibly mixed with other mutations through breeding to create new morphs

More babies= more mutation crosses=more eventual morphs!

Evolution!

Brant , can i traduce it to spanish and post it in my Facebook site with your signature of course ?
very nice write

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Originally Posted by gcanibe

Brant , can i traduce it to spanish and post it in my Facebook site with your signature of course ?
very nice write

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Absolutely. Thanks for asking.


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This is exactly how I feel about Butter/Lesser morph argument. Maybe i'm taking something completely different from your post but I feel that even though some morphs have similar outcomes, they're genetically different (not trying to start an argument and hijack this thread just my opinion).

Nevertheless, that was a very insightful post.


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