Thoughts on morph pricing levels

I have been doing some thinking lately an what I think, with my cursory non-scientific research, on morph pricing layers.

I think these layers are important, as new business opens up as a morph falls into the next layer down.

Here are the layers as I see them:

10K+ - generally only large scale breeder to large scale breeder sales
7500-10K - Large scale breeders or big purchase for medium scale breeders
5K-7500 - High end level for medium level breeders
3K-5K - High end level for smaller breeders (like me) and very deep pocket hobbyist (rare)
2K-3K - Small breeder and high-end hobbyist
1500-2K - Small breeder and high-end hobbyist
1K-1500 - High end for novice breeder, med-high end hobbyist
500-1000 - in-between zone that cover a lot of groups
300-500 - Bulk of novice breeder single gene stock
200-300 - First stepping stone up
50-200 - Lowest level (includes Pastel, Spider etc...)

Now, with this I am speaking mostly of single gene, but you can apply the same idea to 2-gene, 3-gene, etc... Also, I realize there are exceptions where a small breeder splurges on a 15K animal or whatever, those are outliers.

IMO, it is a good thing when the prices drop to a level that hobbyist are beginning to get involved int he purchases, not just breeders. Breeder selling to breeder on the high end does not bring in new money from outside the hobby, just recycles it from breeder to breeder. New breeders coming in generally are going to start on a lower level, so we are still not seeing new money until the maybe the 2K-3K zone, and even then there is still a lot of established breeder-to-breeder sales (and trades which I am intentionally leaving out).

My overall point is that I think there is a sweet spot in a given single gene morph price between say 500 and 3K (kinda wide I know) that maximizes bringing in new money and still getting a decent return. Once the price drops below $500, the finicky nature of BP breeding really comes in to play OR the market gets absolutely FLOODED with the morph.

****Like I said, my methods are purely based on observation and speculation, no science whatsoever****

I would like to hear others' takes on this (preferably without discussing SPECIFIC PROJECTS, as that angers some).

Also, now that i think about it, there can be new money coming in indirectly to fund larger purchases (via sales of lower tier morphs aggregated to then purchase a higher tier morph), but I think my idea that there is a sweet spot for sales to new folks still stands.

So near 100 views, and I am the only one that thinks about these kinds of thing?

Well i read it all and pretty much went "yup, uh huh, ok, yup..." I agree with you and have thought about it all before too, I'm just not sure what you wanted us to discuss...?

I suppose I should preface this by saying that I do not expect to make a massive profit from my ball pythons, but I do expect to make some money to balance the upkeep cost, or pay for new genes. I love my animals and Their health and happiness comes first. I waited 4 years to start breeding and I believe the wait was helpful in some ways. I think sometimes people who get into this hobby move too quickly buying breeder sized animals and trying to breed as soon as possible.

I think what you said makes a lot of sense. I'm probably somewhere in the small breeder/hobbyist. I think it is important to have breeders/hobbyists at all levels to balance the market. While some people might say that there are way too many plain old pastels and spiders, I still think there is a demand for those animals among the newbies and people just looking for a pet. I think as a breeder/hobbyist it is our duty to provide the highest quality animals possible.

This is my first breeding season and I don't expect to make any profit at all for this season. Next season I should have some really fun combos and hopefully I will see a little bit more money from that, but profit? not likely. I think when you have some really good single gene breeding stock, it paves the way to produce some really nice combos and allows you to invest in some more expensive projects.

Hmmm ok, i think i get it after reading steffe's response. One thing that was confusing me:
Are you talking about JUST pricing or are you also talking about quantity and quality of animals?

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Hmmm ok, i think i get it after reading steffe's response. One thing that was confusing me:
Are you talking about JUST pricing or are you also talking about quantity and quality of animals?

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;) If he didn't mention, it means you may mention it. It is relavent to the discussion so why not!

I think this is a good discussion to have. It always worries me a little when I see very expensive morphs drop so dramatically in price over the course of a couple years, but at the same time I remember how eventually the morph sort of "plateaus" and keeps steady. Some of the basic recessives, doms, and codoms have stayed relatively steady in recent years, and I've seen a lot of basic 2 gene combos filling the space where those single genes were.

Well im just thinking like... If i had unlimited funds, id be doing this as a full time job so that would make me a professional breeder. But i don't have unlimited funds so that makes me a hobbyist. But just because i only have 8 bps, does that mean im a low range hobbyist? By "high end hobbyist" are we talking about; number of snakes, value of the snakes, number of genes the snakes have...?

I don't see myself ever becoming more than a hobbyist breeder. I just want to make lots of hot snakes to use to make more hot snakes. Like i said, if i win the lotto or something, THEN id retire and just breed snakes. But i dont see the whole "unlimited funds" thing happening anytime soon lmao

Haha I think we all wish we would just hit the lotto and breed snakes for the rest of our lives. I know I totally would!!! I am actually even seriously considering it if things go well over the next 5 years or so.

I think that is a clarification that needs to be made. Do your dollar amounts mean total value of the collection? Or value of an individual animal? I assume its for an individual animal. But that also assumes that whoever is breeding said animals only has that type of animal. I have many single genes, but also a few high end double and triples.

Idk, i was sorta just ranting, steffe. Lol.

I don't have any multi gene snakes yet but id consider all my snakes to be pretty good examples of their morphs. Does that mean im low range hobbyist? Or since i have nice snakes, does that make me high end lol?

I think quality definitely has a say, but I am talking independent of a particular project or morph, and just on the base market price for a morph and where it falls in the hierarchy.

High quality to me means that the price of the given morph will fall on the very high end of its market value.


My overall intention here was to see if other folks also see there are dividing lines, and at a certain point the transactions are simply breeder-to-breeder.

IMO it is not healthy for a morph to stay in the super high bracket for too long. Then you see the huge drop. This really screws over that middle tier guy who buys in too high, and can actually sour folks on the morph a bit and drop prices more. So the big guys who bought early, make a fortune, but really kinda screw over the folks they sell to right before the bubble breaks. When this happens, layers are skipped money making opportunities for the mid and small breeder are missed.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Idk, i was sorta just ranting, steffe. Lol.

I don't have any multi gene snakes yet but id consider all my snakes to be pretty good examples of their morphs. Does that mean im low range hobbyist? Or since i have nice snakes, does that make me high end lol?

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You are thinking in terms of quality of a specific morph. When I say high-end in this case I am talking about expensive animals, this is a price tier, not a quality tier. So, it is high end FOR a beginner breeder not a high end beginner breeder, if that makes sense. Meaning that for folks generally on that level, that is a lot to spend on one animal.

I read this on my phone this morning (couldn't respond) but I think it's something that goes through all our minds but maybe not in quite so much detail as well as in a way that we may not recognize. This is my first season breeding. I would consider myself a hobbyist. However, I don't think of it in terms of levels like that. When I see an animal (say a lesser yellowbelly clown: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...-yellow-belly/ )that I think is totally awesome and I wish I had...I'm not thinking about "oh this falls into ____ range so I can't get it because I'm not a _____ breeder/hobbyist." What I do is think "Goodness! That's a hot snake at a yikes price." So I move on. I let people who can afford it get those animals but I make a point to taper my breeding projects to one of those awesome combos that I can make myself.

It's pretty much the same philosophy, I'm just not consciously thinking about the technical aspects of it. Like Mike said, I would love to one day be able to retire, build a HUGE snake breeding facility, and live out my days breeding really cool, high-end morphs. However, I'll probably still be at a house with a snake room enjoying each little head that pips from their egg because that's what I can afford and what I enjoy. I hope that made some sense.

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Originally Posted by Royal Hijinx

IMO it is not healthy for a morph to stay in the super high bracket for too long. Then you see the huge drop. This really screws over that middle tier guy who buys in too high, and can actually sour folks on the morph a bit and drop prices more. So the big guys who bought early, make a fortune, but really kinda screw over the folks they sell to right before the bubble breaks. When this happens, layers are skipped money making opportunities for the mid and small breeder are missed.

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I think that you have an interesting point here. However, prices are in the hands of the seller AND the buyer. Why did the super high price morph drop in the first place? Was it super saturated in supply? Was there a "defect" found? Was the price lowered to move along the snake more quickly? Was the priced lowered to compete with other people lowering their prices? Depending on the price drop, I'm sure there can still be money to be made as long as quality babies are produced. Mike Wilbanks has a good video up on Youtube called "The Ball Game" and it has a part 2 as well.

In econ, everyone is happy when the price hits equilibrium (the point of which supply meets demand at the perfect price point). I think that as long as people are willing to pay some amount of cash on a morph, the morph could stay at that price point. It is inevitable that prices for all morphs will fall, but I do all morphs will hit a plateau and stay there. I think that single genes will always be less expensive than a double gene (not saying that a bumblebee is worth more than a GHI).

To answer your question, I do not see myself as a large scale breeder. I see myself as a small scale breeder that is hopefully going to produce higher quality/ more sought after morphs (and morphs I like).

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Originally Posted by Royal Hijinx

I think quality definitely has a say, but I am talking independent of a particular project or morph, and just on the base market price for a morph and where it falls in the hierarchy.

High quality to me means that the price of the given morph will fall on the very high end of its market value.


My overall intention here was to see if other folks also see there are dividing lines, and at a certain point the transactions are simply breeder-to-breeder.

IMO it is not healthy for a morph to stay in the super high bracket for too long. Then you see the huge drop. This really screws over that middle tier guy who buys in too high, and can actually sour folks on the morph a bit and drop prices more. So the big guys who bought early, make a fortune, but really kinda screw over the folks they sell to right before the bubble breaks. When this happens, layers are skipped money making opportunities for the mid and small breeder are missed.

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In my mind, I read "High end" and "High quality" as two different things. Once upon a time bumblebees were considered more "high end" but there were most definitely some that were of very poor quality.

I think those lines are pretty accurate in terms of common genetics - rare genetics, but most hobbyist breeders might have quite a few on the lower end, and only a couple on the high end. So would you categorize people based on their highest morph?


I do agree that the middle tier people get screwed over in a way. The more people that start working with newer morphs, the more the price seems to drop. It can be very hard to buy your way into some of those top projects. I'd love to get involved in some of them, but I am afraid of the huge drop you mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

In my mind, I read "High end" and "High quality" as two different things. Once upon a time bumblebees were considered more "high end" but there were most definitely some that were of very poor quality.

I think those lines are pretty accurate in terms of common genetics - rare genetics, but most hobbyist breeders might have quite a few on the lower end, and only a couple on the high end. So would you categorize people based on their highest morph?


I do agree that the middle tier people get screwed over in a way. The more people that start working with newer morphs, the more the price seems to drop. It can be very hard to buy your way into some of those top projects. I'd love to get involved in some of them, but I am afraid of the huge drop you mentioned.

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I completely agree with the high end vs high quality difference. I haven't gotten my daily dose of caffeine yet :)

I can see why people categorize themselves or try to, but there are always outliers. I guess my answer for that would be categorize by the high end.

The "huge" price drop is relative I think. Is the price drop 30%? 50%? 90%? Regardless of the price drop, I think it is still possible to get some (at least a good amount) of your investment back.

I have a simpler view. My perception is that the majority of the customer base (probably 80%) falls into these two categories.

1. Hobbyist/Future Breeders

a. Getting their feet wet with the species and may breed them in the future. Has <10 Ball Pythons.
b. Working with common genes
c. Comfortable with spending <$300, but may spend up to $500

2. Small Breeders

a. Has <50 Ball Pythons
b. Working mostly with common genes and may have aspirations to work with rarer more expensive genes
c. Comfortable with spending <$500, but may spend up to $1,500

If you want to bring in new money and see "volume", then you need to produce animals that are within those “sweet spot” price ranges. Anything above that range, then you are probably dealing with medium to large scale breeders who as you mentioned may be involved in trades or partial trades to obtain new animals. You’re also dealing with a smaller and more savvy segment of the customer base (~20%).

I think this leads into the more important question to consider, which is “How is the customer base distributed?” You could sell 10 Pastels for $2,000 or you could sell 1 Spark for $2,000. Volume vs. Price. Is it easier to find 10 customers who want a Pastel or 1 customer who wants a Spark? The gene(s) is also critical in this discussion. Just because a gene is new/rare doesn’t make it desirable.

I bucket myself as a "Very small breeder" and these are the points that i consider when i think about pricing and the financial viability of a particular morph/combo.

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Originally Posted by bfirecat

I completely agree with the high end vs high quality difference. I haven't gotten my daily dose of caffeine yet :)

I can see why people categorize themselves or try to, but there are always outliers. I guess my answer for that would be categorize by the high end.

The "huge" price drop is relative I think. Is the price drop 30%? 50%? 90%? Regardless of the price drop, I think it is still possible to get some (at least a good amount) of your investment back.

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Oh it is for sure relative! Nothing in this hobby is set in stone. Well, maybe the FACT that ball pythons are awesome :P But there are people out there who absolutely loathe the ball python community. I can't understand it!

I don't really feel the need to categorize myself per say, but I think it is interesting to analyze these trends of breeders.

Over the last 5 years of owning and starting to breed, my tastes in morphs has changed greatly. Now that I have close to 30 ball pythons, I am starting to consider what will happen once these animals start producing for me. What is my next step? My Significant Other has thought about this much more than me as I am, at the moment, fixated on my first few clutches of eggs! I don't care what comes out as long as they are healthy! We have been tossing around the idea of making an investment on a very high end male (5k+) but that wouldn't be for another couple years..By that time, the animals we were originally looked at will probably have dropped down into an affordable price range. Thus removing the need to invest in that particular "high end"

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

as I am, at the moment, fixated on my first few clutches of eggs! I don't care what comes out as long as they are healthy! We have been tossing around the idea of making an investment on a very high end male (5k+) but that wouldn't be for another couple years..By that time, the animals we were originally looked at will probably have dropped down into an affordable price range. Thus removing the need to invest in that particular "high end"

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This is how i feel too (except not quite *that* high of a price range) as far as what id like to steer towards. I'm like "well id like to add these 3 morphs, but not quite yet, and by the time ill need that then itll be cheaper..." Im also hoping that i can sell babies i produce to help pay for morphs i want to have the hobby pay for itself a bit. Then theres also morphs that i really like, but dont really want to work with a whole lot so i only want one nice female example of it. This is why ive started out slower than most with all single genes. Its worked out well because my tastes have changed a lot too since i first started getting into morphs. :)