Think I'm in the process of getting ripped off...

Started a trade last week with a guy on FB. I checked the BOI first, nothing, looked over his page and saw positive comments from others that had done business with him. He also had several animals for sale. We agreed to send at the same time, he sending immediately after getting confirmation from me. I sent my end out last Tuesday. He received it Wednesday and acknowledged that everything arrived as expected and was alive and well. Then the excuses started.

First it was life problems. Finally on Thursday he claimed he was going to the FedEx office to drop the package off. I didn't hear anything for several hours, finally he contacted me via FaceBook and claimed that FedEx wouldn't take his package because he wasn't authorized to ship, that he needed to go through SYR, and it would go out today.

I sent him a gentle reminder at 10AM this morning. No response. Tried again at 3:30, 5:45, 7:15... Finally a few minutes ago I brought up going to the BOI about it. He claims that he's in the process of getting a business running, but to me this is just unacceptable. His communication has been terrible throughout the entire thing, and the litany of excuse are just maddening.

Any opinions on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to take it up to making a public complaint yet because that's where all semblance of politeness starts to disappear and no one walks away happy. I also can't just bend over and take it. I scrimp and save to afford these animals and it's a big hit for me to get ripped off like this.

Ugh..thats a tough one, cuz its a trade through the mail. Personally, I would never do a trade through the mail unless I was friends with the person. To me, its just too risky on so many levels. Have you saved all "written" communication such as emails, texts and such? If the agreement is "written" somewhere, you may be able to take him to small claims if it doesn't get resolved. And whats the value of the snake you are supposed to get? If it was just a snake you were purchasing through Paypal, youd be ok, cuz theyd help you get your money back. But this is a trade....whole different situation. Id (politely as you can) give him a deadline ultimatum. Tell him if the animal promised does not arrive at your door by a certain date, you are taking the situation further, and WILL be reporting him negatively on the BOI. That's what Id do. Hope you get it all sorted out.

I definitely have all communications with him saved. I also have his phone # (I've tried texting him to no avail. A call will be next.) and home address. I know that stuff sometimes happens, and if it wasn't for the string of excuses I've already gotten I'd be much more understanding and patient. If I'm unable to contact him in the next day or so I'm going to have to post the whole thing, including all the communication, on the BOI. I'll also probably have to get in touch with the police in his town to see what I need to do to file a fraud complaint.

I hate not being able to trust people. I felt like I did my due diligence looking into his profile, feeling him out in chat, etc, but this may be a case of me not being as good a judge of character as I think I am.

Wait for a little bit, and see if he follows through. Either way this way shakes, a BOI is in order. If he completes its a "was slow, lack of communication, subpar business practices" and of he rips you off its a "scammer alert". It's his choice, the BOI is unavoidable since he missed the first try.

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Careful with the phone call, because any promises or deals made on the phone can turn into a he-said/she-said sort of fiasco. If you do try to speak with him and get some solution worked out over the phone, immediately send an e-mail or other written communication that "thanks" him for the phone call and repeats, in detail, exactly what was agreed upon on the phone. While the "good feelings" from the phone call are still being felt (or pretended), they are likely to respond and acknowledge the deal. But even if they don't, the lack of argument ("What phone call?" or "Wait, that wasn't our deal...") can be looked at as an acknowledgement of the agreement.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Careful with the phone call, because any promises or deals made on the phone can turn into a he-said/she-said sort of fiasco. If you do try to speak with him and get some solution worked out over the phone, immediately send an e-mail or other written communication that "thanks" him for the phone call and repeats, in detail, exactly what was agreed upon on the phone. While the "good feelings" from the phone call are still being felt (or pretended), they are likely to respond and acknowledge the deal. But even if they don't, the lack of argument ("What phone call?" or "Wait, that wasn't our deal...") can be looked at as an acknowledgement of the agreement.

Good luck.

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I just called, got voicemail. Left a message stressing how concerned I was and asking him to contact me via text or facebook. I definitely want to keep a paper trail of this.

that really sucks, as stated above, i really hope he pulls through on his end. been burnt on a trade deal in the past myself. wont be doing that again.

The worst part of it is this was my first experience doing business with someone in the herp community. Does not leave a good taste in my mouth.

Who is he and where does he live? Start a thread on the BOI and do it NOW.

Seriously. Now.

BOI definitely. And did you initiate the trade or him?

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It's already been five days. There's nothing a thread on BOI is going to do tonight that it won't do tomorrow. I have him until tomorrow evening to contact me with tracking info. In the meantime I will be working on the BOI post in case he doesn't come through, though.

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

It's already been five days. There's nothing a thread on BOI is going to do tonight that it won't do tomorrow. I have him until tomorrow evening to contact me with tracking info. In the meantime I will be working on the BOI post in case he doesn't come through, though.

Sent from my Gameboy using Tapatalk 2

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a thread on the BOI may very well put some pep in his step.

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Originally Posted by creepin

a thread on the BOI may very well put some pep in his step.

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True, but I already told him I'd give him until tomorrow. I don't know about him, but I stand by my word.

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BoI threads are forever. I wouldn't use them lightly. Sounds like maybe he's earning one... but I agree that using it to prod him probably isn't the right thing to do. I like that you're giving him until a deadline before posting to the BoI.

Yeah, I agree you give him the deadline, then post it up.

As much as I hate to add to your concerns, I would be very nervous about receiving an animal from someone who's "starting a business" but either didn't know he had to be Fedex-certified to ship on his own, or knew and was blatantly trying to circumvent the system. If he didn't know, does he know how to properly pack the snake? If he was trying to cut corners, will he do the same in packing? I wish you the best of luck in a good resolution, and agree with the others that a BOI posting should be in order regardless of the final outcome.

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

As much as I hate to add to your concerns, I would be very nervous about receiving an animal from someone who's "starting a business" but either didn't know he had to be Fedex-certified to ship on his own, or knew and was blatantly trying to circumvent the system. If he didn't know, does he know how to properly pack the snake? If he was trying to cut corners, will he do the same in packing? I wish you the best of luck in a good resolution, and agree with the others that a BOI posting should be in order regardless of the final outcome.

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It was one of those "New guy thinking slightly less new guy is veteran" type situations. :facepalm:

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

It's already been five days. There's nothing a thread on BOI is going to do tonight that it won't do tomorrow. I have him until tomorrow evening to contact me with tracking info. In the meantime I will be working on the BOI post in case he doesn't come through, though.

Sent from my Gameboy using Tapatalk 2

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What it could do is protect or spare somebody else from having this problem with him.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

What it could do is protect or spare somebody else from having this problem with him.

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Although I agree with you Doo, I think it's appropriate that he is honoring the deadline that he gave the guy before posting.

Ask him to mail your snake back to you. I think that you should not go through with the trade at this point. Who knows if he even has the animal he says he does.

I understand you wanting to wait to make the BOI thread, but he clearly does not feel threatened by that. Does he even have an account on Fauna? If he is new to the hobby, he might not even have any idea it exists, which means, he probably wouldn't even notice the thread until you notified him of it.


In the future, don't do deals with people that don't have feedback of some sort. Whether its buyer or seller feedback, any feedback is better than no feedback. Facebook can be easily manipulated to make you look like a stand up guy when really you are trying to scam people out of animals.

The excuses are a huge red flag to me, as well as the lack of communication.


As for future trades, either conduct them in person with people you trust, reputable breeders, or don't do them at all.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

What it could do is protect or spare somebody else from having this problem with him.

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Sorry but one day is not going to make a whole lot of a difference. It is unlikely that this person is scamming a bunch of people all at once and doesn't have a BOI about them already. Many people who post negative BOIs usually wait until the very end of their experience and post a full summary. While a BOI is helpful for other people to judge the character of sellers/buyers, it is equally not helpful for those who don't even realize the BOI exists, like many of the people that frequent the reptile classifieds on facebook.

OP has a duty to honor his word. Whether the other party will honor their word is unclear at this time. But at least OP knows they were courteous and more than accommodating when they go and make a negative BOI post, rather than going behind the other persons back.

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

Although I agree with you Doo, I think it's appropriate that he is honoring the deadline that he gave the guy before posting.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Ask him to mail your snake back to you. I think that you should not go through with the trade at this point. Who knows if he even has the animal he says he does.

I understand you wanting to wait to make the BOI thread, but he clearly does not feel threatened by that. Does he even have an account on Fauna? If he is new to the hobby, he might not even have any idea it exists, which means, he probably wouldn't even notice the thread until you notified him of it.


In the future, don't do deals with people that don't have feedback of some sort. Whether its buyer or seller feedback, any feedback is better than no feedback. Facebook can be easily manipulated to make you look like a stand up guy when really you are trying to scam people out of animals.

The excuses are a huge red flag to me, as well as the lack of communication.


As for future trades, either conduct them in person with people you trust, reputable breeders, or don't do them at all.



Sorry but one day is not going to make a whole lot of a difference. It is unlikely that this person is scamming a bunch of people all at once and doesn't have a BOI about them already. Many people who post negative BOIs usually wait until the very end of their experience and post a full summary. While a BOI is helpful for other people to judge the character of sellers/buyers, it is equally not helpful for those who don't even realize the BOI exists, like many of the people that frequent the reptile classifieds on facebook.

OP has a duty to honor his word. Whether the other party will honor their word is unclear at this time. But at least OP knows they were courteous and more than accommodating when they go and make a negative BOI post, rather than going behind the other persons back.

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Ok, maybe I didn't word that right. I didn't mean do it, do it now. I meant make sure you do it so that it doesn't happen to somebody else.

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

Ok, maybe I didn't word that right. I didn't mean do it, do it now. I meant make sure you do it so that it doesn't happen to somebody else.

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Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

In the future, don't do deals with people that don't have feedback of some sort. Whether its buyer or seller feedback, any feedback is better than no feedback. .

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I can't say that situations like this don't encourage this mindset, but I hate it. As someone just about to have my first clutches dropped, my biggest fear is that I won't be able to sell any animals because I don't have feedback. There has to be some faith in humanity sometimes. All of the biggest names in the business that everyone recognizes here started out selling their first snakes without feedback.

I definitely wouldn't do trades like this if they weren't face to face though.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

In the future, don't do deals with people that don't have feedback of some sort. Whether its buyer or seller feedback, any feedback is better than no feedback. .

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I can't say that situations like this don't encourage this mindset, but I hate it. As someone just about to have my first clutches dropped, my biggest fear is that I won't be able to sell any animals because I don't have feedback. There has to be some faith in humanity sometimes. All of the biggest names in the business that everyone recognizes here started out selling their first snakes without feedback.

I definitely wouldn't do trades like this if they weren't face to face though.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I can't say that situations like this don't encourage this mindset, but I hate it. As someone just about to have my first clutches dropped, my biggest fear is that I won't be able to sell any animals because I don't have feedback. There has to be some faith in humanity sometimes. All of the biggest names in the business that everyone recognizes here started out selling their first snakes without feedback.

I definitely wouldn't do trades like this if they weren't face to face though.

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But surely you have feedback from other breeders from being a good buyer? And you have this website! While it isn't seller/buyer feedback, it still proves you are a real person with real animals!

I have a trader rating on fauna because people rate me for being a good buyer :) Maybe you can ask some breeders who you have purchased from in the past if they would leave you some positive feedback.

I guess it just comes down to using your best judgement. If anything seems off, don't do the deal. I understand that everyone starts somewhere, but we also need to be careful who we are dealing with. New names are popping up all the time and while I would like to have faith in these new names, all of these scammers do make me wary of dealing with them.

I don't mind trades. If someone wants to trade with me, they have to ship first. Once I get the animal, I'll ship mine.

If I initiate it, I would have to ship first. But I probably won't initiate a trade without knowing the person on a personal basis.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I can't say that situations like this don't encourage this mindset, but I hate it. As someone just about to have my first clutches dropped, my biggest fear is that I won't be able to sell any animals because I don't have feedback. There has to be some faith in humanity sometimes. All of the biggest names in the business that everyone recognizes here started out selling their first snakes without feedback.

I definitely wouldn't do trades like this if they weren't face to face though.

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I don't think you're going to have a problem as long as you take payment through Paypal. Their Buyer Protection has saved my tookus at least once, and people should be fairly confident to buy as long as you're using a payment method that gives some protection.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I don't mind trades. If someone wants to trade with me, they have to ship first. Once I get the animal, I'll ship mine.

If I initiate it, I would have to ship first. But I probably won't initiate a trade without knowing the person on a personal basis.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Unfortunately that's exactly how I got into this situation. The assumption was that I was the unknown quantity, so I shipped first with the assurance that he would ship immediately after. Very stupid of me.

Who is this guy?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Who is this guy?

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His name is Dan Foss/Reptiles Plus in Pepperell, Mass.

https://www.facebook.com/reptiles.plus.10

Does anyone know the exact thing I'm going to have to report when (or hopefully if) I go to the police? Is it Mail Fraud?

I'm local to that area and appreciate you sharing their info.

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

His name is Dan Foss/Reptiles Plus in Pepperell, Mass.

https://www.facebook.com/reptiles.plus.10

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This guy is also using a personal profile on facebook to represent a business/organization which is clearly against facebook TOS.
I have taken the liberty of reporting it to facebook.

I would start the BOI thread now. The way I see it, he failed to follow through with his commitment and even if he goes through it now it's bad business. Just this thread here has probably turned a number of people off on him because of the way he does business. Why not warn more people?

Well, I kept my word and didn't post it until this evening: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=398158

If this guy thinks he can get away with ripping you off by keeping his sales local you can cost him a lot without going to court. Find any facebook groups, discussion forums, etc. for snake/herp topics local to Massachusetts and post the BOI link on them as well if you don't get this resolved in the next few days. Heck, post it on his own danged facebook wall so his friends see it, or if you and he have mutual friends then send it to them.

Yes, he can remove your post from his wall and block you, but if one of my fellow local herpers were screwing around like this I'd give him a personal :fishslap:.

I really hope this all gets sorted out.

It sucks that this kind of behavior is going to hurt those of us who are new to the selling scene. Like MrLang, I currently have one snake on the market and hopefully a couple of clutches to follow. I've never sold anything and have no feedback so it's this kind of behavior that makes people hesitant to purchase from unknown buyers. It's a shame people can't just be honest and do business with class and respect.

Any movement on this?

On the fauna thread he said he got an email from the man's mother, assuring him he would get the animal agreed to in the trade.

It still sounds suspicious to me... he made zero communications in the last week and then his mother responds?? Why doesn't he just pick up the phone.

I don't get it. :(

I've been lurking this thread, and I agree. X2 on the mother responding, sounds fishy...

Yeah, I received one email from the guy's mom, then nothing. I've replied to her several times, called her (her number wasn't difficult to locate) asking for her to call me back so we can talk about it... I really do think I'm going to have to call the cops.

Says he's in the process of opening a business...


gets scared at the idea that laws have been broken...


mom calls.


You got duped by a teenager bro

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Says he's in the process of opening a business...


gets scared at the idea that laws have been broken...


mom calls.


You got duped by a teenager bro

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Actually, I've talked to people that've done face to face business with the guy and apparently he's in his mid to late 20's.

My 5y/o is a better businesswoman. She sells the girl scout cookies and delivers!

This guy is a joke.

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

Actually, I've talked to people that've done face to face business with the guy and apparently he's in his mid to late 20's.

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Sorry my joke was in bad taste. I really hope this gets resolved for you. I would definitely post on the BOI that his mom called you. Even if this gets resolved, I'm pretty sure nobody wants to do business with someone that has their mommy call to defend them after they're clearly in the wrong.

: /

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Sorry my joke was in bad taste. I really hope this gets resolved for you. I would definitely post on the BOI that his mom called you. Even if this gets resolved, I'm pretty sure nobody wants to do business with someone that has their mommy call to defend them after they're clearly in the wrong.

: /

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No worries, man. If I saw that someone's mom started talking for them (She sent me an email, BTW. No call.) then I would assume they were a kid too. For a grown man, though... Of course, from the research I've done it's not really surprising. I was trying to verify the address he gave me and came across a court filing where his mom got custody of his kid.

Well, we've got another development. Just got a call from him. He claimed that he lost his phone for a week and doesn't have internet access other than his phone, but he's going to print the shipping label through SYR in the next couple of minutes and send me the tracking. On top of that he said that he'll be shipping me a clutchmate of the original Fire het Albino, another female Fire het Albino, plus a bunch of extra goodies. I'm really in an "I'll believe it when I see it" place, but if he does follow up then it'll go a long way to making up for the past week of uncertainty.

Good to hear that he is at least communicating with you.

And I agree with the "I'll believe it when I see it mentality".

Good luck

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On top of that he said that he'll be shipping me a clutchmate of the original Fire het Albino, another female Fire het Albino, plus a bunch of extra goodies.

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yeah, when pigs fly :mad:

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

He claimed that he lost his phone for a week and doesn't have internet access other than his phone, but he's going to print the shipping label through SYR in the next couple of minutes and send me the tracking.

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Two things about this make me cringe

1) If he only has internet access on his phone then how is he going to print a FedEx label? Or can phones print these days??

2) I am not sure FedEx does Friday overnight with guaranteed delivery on Saturday and I know that no self-respecting herp shipper would ship on a Friday

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Two things about this make me cringe

1) If he only has internet access on his phone then how is he going to print a FedEx label? Or can phones print these days??

2) I am not sure FedEx does Friday overnight with guaranteed delivery on Saturday and I know that no self-respecting herp shipper would ship on a Friday

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1) He's at his mom's house.

2) It's not going out until Monday.

I have gotten a tracking number now, though. Things are looking up.

Oh, and phones can print. I've got a cheapo HP deskjet that has software that actually lets me print to it from pretty much anywhere on my phone. It's awesome.

Glad to hear that things are improving. Things happen to the best of us, but all's well that ends well. Keep us updated on what you end up getting.