RHP/probe placement?

I'm getting ready to move my boa from a 41qt tub to a PVC/boaphile style enclosure. Not sure of the actual brand as it was a craigslist find. It came with a RHP that works. My question is this: where do I put the thermostat probe? I thought about on the floor of the enclosure under the RHP, but if my snake lays ontop of it, then it will throw incorrect readings. I also thought about attaching it to the RHP, but am not sure about that either. My concern is that she'll pile herself up between the floor and the RHP and be able to stay in constant contact with the RHP and burn herself. Unregulated, the RHP reaches about 140° and I don't want her to burn herself. I'm also really uncomfortable with the idea of running it unregulated. I don't need it to raise ambient temps, just to provide her a hot spot/basking area. I know quite a few people use these setups, so how do you do it? Thanks!!


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I hang mine from the middle of the panel. It is about 1/2 way between the panel and floor.

I have had good luck mounting mine with a cable strap.

I glue the probe into a cable strap and then glue the strap to the edge of the RHP.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/...020_115558.jpg

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I hang mine from the middle of the panel. It is about 1/2 way between the panel and floor.

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What do you use to attach the probe to the panel?


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I used a big blob of hot melt glue to hold it in place. I found the cable was a bit looser than I liked so I use heat shrink to make it stiffer. It has worked reasonably well although a UTH is far far easier.

http://images12.fotki.com/v20/photos...MG_2980-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

You can see the heat shrink on the probe (ridge) it extends to the blob. It is messy but working it can hold quite a tug I pulled it and actually pulled a screw loose from the ceiling.

Those are all great looking options. I'm going to give you one more. This was conveyed to me by Bob at Pro-Products, makers of RHP's Proventamite and some other great equipment.

This may or may not be the answer for you depending on the ambient temp of your cage and room.

Mine is in a finished basement and the temp is usually 67-75 degrees depending if I'm running an outer room heater.

Bob advised I should mount the thermostat probe to the far cool side of the tank and dangle the probe just off the floor slightly above the highest part of the snake's body.

I set my thermostat (Herpstat 1) to 80 degrees. This is the temp that my cool side reaches or my ambient temp. The gradient is created, and having the RHP work to make the cool side 80 works out that my hot side is 92 degrees. There is a bit of a gradient on both sides of the RHP as I mounted it 6"s out from the left side so it's still warmer on the left, but not as warm as directly under the panel. The right side is the cool side sitting at 80 and there is a gradual warming closer to the RHP.

Bob has a lot of knowledge and will talk your ear off explaining his reasons for the setup.

Keep in mind he wanted to know my room ambient temp, size and type of plastic cage I had, and whether or not we had a concrete floor or not. He designs his heat panel to suite the specific need you have.

You could probably still do some trial and error stuff, but I did all of that 3 weeks before I got the snake.

I used a little foil tape to stick the stat probe cord to the ceiling of the cage. If the snake hits it, it just swings back into place.

http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/y...a/IMG_1018.jpg

You can see the probe on the far right side. Hope this helps.

I think the other posts with photos are equally as good and advise you go with whatever works best for you.

Good luck!

Thanks for your responses guys. I'm not concerned with the ambient temp as my snake room stays warm enough on its own (I have an oil filled heater on a thermostat if it were to happen to dip too low).

Gio: I like your idea...but here's the flaw I see: if the RHP is on, how hot is it getting? Obviously if it's heating the cool side to 80 then it's getting far above that temp. I don't want this thing running 140 degrees for hours on end and my boa resting against it and burning herself.

I see your concern but the rhp is hot but not hot like a stove burner. Since it is on the ceiling the snake really has no way to stay in contact with it long enough to create an issue.

My gtp bumps his all the time. It however does not get anywhere close to 140 since it only creates a hotspot on the top perch and my whole room is heated for ambient temps. As long as it is not an overly tall cage I'm sure it will stay at temps that will not create burns. Certainly check it though.

The surface of mine often is over 140. It takes more heat than this to get a contact burn but mine will also heat the floor to 106 with no issue the cool side on my test enclosure with no secondary heat will only be 6 over the room temps. The room temp is only 63 so far too cool.

I don't see the logic of probe on the cool side as rhp do not heat air at all. I fiddled with this and the rhp produced a 100 hot spot and ambients under 70. It did not work for me at all.


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I actually unplugged my rhp's because they didn't help my ambient either. Well they created a hotspot to hot for my blood and brb trying to get the ambient up. I'm glad I had rhp's and uth's.

I ended up heating the room with a oil heater.

Kitedemon, I know you've posted this about RHP's before and it makes sense, yet I have had 4 thermometers in the cage in different areas and I have a cool side temp of 80. My temp directly under the RHP is 92. A snake will often bask in the sun and heat itself quite nicely even when the outdoor ambient temps are in the 60's the snake can be much warmer.

I will not argue here with you because I know you are well versed in heating and it's not my field nor do I have expertise in it like you do. Bob at Pro-Products made an equal amount of sense to me and used the sun and thermal gradient the RHP creates as an examples. All I know is its working for me at this point and my cage is nice, warm and humid when I open it. Since the snake is always touching a surface of some type he is in contact with something that is 80 or 92 degrees.

As for the flaw you may see, I too was concerned about the RHP being too hot. It's not for one, but Bob told me even if the temp under the RHP was 100+ degrees, the cage is big enough for the snake to move into or out of the area as it pleases.

I have noticed he spends and equal amont of time on both sides of the cage which shows the gradient in my case is working.

None of my example here is meant to challenge anybody, and I'm certainly not offended by differing opinions. I hold Kitedemon's views highly and have been impressed with the knowledge and the info I've gained from him.

Since I'm out of my depth a bit here, if you really want to know why my setup is working, I'd direct you to contact Bob at Pro-Products.

I am not the only one with this type of setup, in fact the maker of Pro-Line cages, suggested I do it this way.

Again,, do what's best for you. I have a Royal that I heat completely different using a UTH and an infrared bulb.

So far so good on my end and I hope you have success no matter what you choose.

Glo,
I apparently was not clear. I wrote bouncing on a bus during the first leg home, so I hope you all will forgive me. When you posted this a while a ago I thought I'd try it in my test enclosure. In that enclosure in my room temps it failed to work. I think heating is such a complex issue, and has so many debates, is because there are a huge number of variables. Too many often to make any type of blanket statements. If the rhp were perfectly sized and wattage correct it should work but if the same panel were moved to a smaller enclosure it may not work. Every set up is unique in the end and what works for one may not work for others. I guess this is all I was trying to impart it failed to work in my set up.

Alex

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Glo,
I apparently was not clear. I wrote bouncing on a bus during the first leg home, so I hope you all will forgive me. When you posted this a while a ago I thought I'd try it in my test enclosure. In that enclosure in my room temps it failed to work. I think heating is such a complex issue, and has so many debates, is because there are a huge number of variables. Too many often to make any type of blanket statements. If the rhp were perfectly sized and wattage correct it should work but if the same panel were moved to a smaller enclosure it may not work. Every set up is unique in the end and what works for one may not work for others. I guess this is all I was trying to impart it failed to work in my set up.

Alex

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As always well written and thought out Alex. I really can only use my example to the point I can explain it which is not too far LOL! Bob is a heating and cooling specialist and I'm just a guy with a BP for my son and a boa for myself.

Bob MUST have certain info in order for the type of setup I'm running to work. I was very skeptical and had a hard time leaving the UTH and believe it of not, the dreaded heat lamp behind.

There is a safe way to run an RHP and get total tank heat, but as you mentioned wattage, tank height, size, color and interior play a role.

I was so concerned about only using 1 heat source I monitored my tank for 3 weeks with 4 different thermometers prior to getting the snake.

I love to offer advice and try to help when I find something that works. It's what people did for me when I 1st started. Actually you and Aaron (Serpent Merchant) pretty much got me up and running through your posts.

I love and hate these forums because tone, and facial expressions are lost in typing, yet this community is about the only place I find other folks that like snakes. My wife does not share the same joy so I get my snake chats here.

This is a good thread!!

Gio,
Was it with you that Kite and I already discussed this and we found you have a cage made of wood? I seem to remember that we thought that might be the thing helping you. I don't remember for sure.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Gio,
Was it with you that Kite and I already discussed this and we found you have a cage made of wood? I seem to remember that we thought that might be the thing helping you. I don't remember for sure.

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No, I'm a plastic cage guy.
http://www.reptileinsider.com/showth...tures-enclosed

I think It is because Bob custom evaluates the panel for room ambient temps, cage size and such is why it works.

I really have to differ to him for the reasons his panel works for my cage. I think if anybody is buying from Pro-Products he'll gladly explain it.

My head was spinning after talking to him. In the end it made sense and it works.

Believe me I was torn between leaving a trusted setup and trying a new one.

That link is just a post I made about caging if you need some insight to my situation.

Must have been someone else.

My panels are from pro-products and I emailed him my cage specs and went with his recommendation.

I think my main issue is the species I keep. I was shooting for a lower hotspot so it really could not effect the rest of the cage correctly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

Must have been someone else.

My panels are from pro-products and I emailed him my cage specs and went with his recommendation.

I think my main issue is the species I keep. I was shooting for a lower hotspot so it really could not effect the rest of the cage correctly.

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I really don't understand it. I could never imagine a UTH providing heat for and entire cage, yet a RHP is essentially the same and can in my setup.

That's about all I can say without having Bob get into the conversation. I'm assuming your panel does nothing for your cool side?

What really surprises me is my Herpstat probe is suspended and touches nothing, yet when the cool side cage temp hits 80 degrees, I see the temp on the stat say 80 and the power output % meter drops to zero.

I told Kite in a PM that this summer I'll really see how it goes. Our basement gets colder in the summer because of the AC even with the vents closed.

KMG. you are keeping bloods?? Love that avatar of yours. Nice!

Alright so perhaps I'm being overly concerned with her burning? I just really don't want to have to deal with that situation. I'm leaning towards a setup similar to KMG's as I think that will provide the most control over what the actual surface of the RHP is.

I guess that also begs the question...at what surface temp is a burn a worry?

Just going to throw this out there. I have an RHP from Pro-Products and their claim that they never get hot enough to burn your animal is a load of crap. When I was testing it out I tried hanging the probe down like kitedemon did and set the thermostat to 80. The thing got well over 100F and hot enought to burn my hand on touch. I ended up going the glue it to the edge route.

Kat that is the best question. Reptiles are odd with heat there is a lot of debate as to why and what causes burns. There are no hard studies been done (I think I am thankful they are not intentionally burning snakes...) so conjecture here.

Snake burns can be divided into two groups contact burns and duration burns.

Contact burns need high temps. Much like touching a halogen bulb after being on you would get a burn reptiles get a burn typically 160+ for a fast burn about the temp of coffee if you stick your finger in hot coffee you get a scald almost instantly. So that to me is the lowest point of a contact burn. A animal brushing against something that is 160 or higher will cause a burn almost immediately. This is why many claim RHP to be safe they run below the point a short contact will burn, properly mounted an animal cannot touch it for long periods. General rule of thumb if you find it uncomfortable to hold your hand on for more than 5 seconds it is in the danger zone for a contact burn.

The strange one is the duration burn. Snakes get burned all the time, deep penetrating burns. Why has been a debate in the vet community for some time. There is no proven theory. The issue is a snake will lay on an overly hot surface for some time and become burned, severely burned. Similar to the boiled frog water myth (maybe a myth maybe not that one is sketchy) The temp where this has occurred to my knowledge is over 120º maybe it is hard to get straight info from someone whom has burned a snake. I figure 105ºF is the safe limit likely low but that is what I feel.

The next big question is why don't snakes (reptiles) move? I believe and some of the current theory stands behind it. It comes to ambient temps. The core temp of a snake is greatly effected by the air in the lung. The lung (breathing lung not the other lung) runs past heart, liver, and major circulatory system. Cold air = cold blood. I believe in an attempt to regulate the core temp a snake will lay on a surface and allow the external layers to burn and not move. This is why I constantly harp on ambient temps. Raised awareness of corrected ambient temps may save some burns. Ever notice it is usually larger snakes with burns not babes? I think this helps support this idea, small snakes would warm through the muscle tissues faster before a duration burn.

This is rare in humans but disabled people have been burned by human heating pads because they cannot move off of them. This is why many now have auto off settings and such to protect the people placed upon them who cannot move off on their own.

Glo,
I have emaied Bob on two occasions and never got any response. I guess it is an involved answer and the canadian email precluded an message, don't know, but I never got one.

I know some suggest they be caged off. I personally don't think they have any use in terrestrial set ups and UTH are easier and safer if used properly. Especially the low density units. RHP generate a perfect verticle gradient, useless in a terrestrial set up.

Kat something that should have been asked sooner what are the dimentions?

Well to be completely honest this is my husband's boa (as much as any of our snakes are really "his" or "mine"). We got this cage off craigslist a couple years ago because we knew she'd one day need something at least this size (looks like she'll eventually size out of it at her rate of growth, but it'll work for her for awhile...and we already have it) and it was a good deal. It's about 24x48x12 inches. Similar to the animal plastics T8.

I don't see anyway to set this up with flexwatt as I would think it wouldn't be able to penetrate the bottom of the enclosure. It came with a RHP installed so we cleaned it up and discovered that the RHP did, in fact, work.

I just started thinking about it and thinking about how my balls pile themselves up into...well...balls and squish themselves between the top and bottom of their tubs and I'd hate for her to do this and burn herself from doing it between the bottom of the cage and the RHP. Now...I should probably preface this with she's not quite big enough to accomplish that right now...but she will one day and I don't want to discover that the day has arrived by her burning herself.

Kite, That's disappointing he did not e-mail you back. I was told to call him, but maybe the "catch" is you have to be buying something? I do not know, but I would love to be in the room when the two of you are talking as I think there would be a lot to learn.

I e-mailed Bob a bit ago and also did not get a return e-mail, so maybe the phone is the way to go.

I will continue to monitor my setup this summer when the AC gets involved. I've been more concerned about ambient room temps being cooler in the summer than the winter because of AC.

I think no matter what people decide on, the BIG safety factor is the thermostat. I just will not be without a Herpstat of some type. I have safety alarms in place, some night and day temp differentials set and really can't say enough about what a great tool a quality stat is.

Kat,
you should still be able to use a UTH with a plastic enclosure. MOST people do use that or Flexwatt.

If you want, there is a quality heat mat made by Kane that can be used in or out of the tank. Tom McCarthy of McCarthy Boas uses them in his home made custom cages. They are spendy.

Actually I believe they (Kane mats) are made in Kitedemon's beautiful Canada if I'm not mistaken. If they are anything like my Bryston audio equipment from Canada I'd give a 2 thumbs up LOL!

Hopefully you find something that works.

Good Luck!

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Originally Posted by Gio

KMG. you are keeping bloods?? Love that avatar of yours. Nice!

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I have three pvc cages that are 48*24*15 and each has a RHP and UTH. One has a BRB, the second has an adult female blood, and the third is empty waiting on a male blood to start a breeding program. The one in my avatar is one of three Bangka X Het Albino bloods that I hope to breed in the future. I have two females and a male. Those three are in a rack.

When I was ordering my cages I emailed ProProducts with my plans and cage specs and got an email back with the suggested RHP. I then ordered them and had them shipped to the cage builder for installation without ever talking to anyone on the phone.

Most plastic enclosures are PVCx or expanded PVC (it has little air bubbles in it) it is not the most efficient to heat through but not horrible either. If you have some flexwatt or similar around just try it unregulated ,empty and see what temps you get. I only lost 32-3 degrees usually 1/4-3/8 . I set 93 and get 90 it is easier as your room is heated to correct ambients anyway.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

I have three pvc cages that are 48*24*15 and each has a RHP and UTH. One has a BRB, the second has an adult female blood, and the third is empty waiting on a male blood to start a breeding program. The one in my avatar is one of three Bangka X Het Albino bloods that I hope to breed in the future. I have two females and a male. Those three are in a rack.

When I was ordering my cages I emailed ProProducts with my plans and cage specs and got an email back with the suggested RHP. I then ordered them and had them shipped to the cage builder for installation without ever talking to anyone on the phone.

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Good for you! Sounds like a nice setup, Animal Plastics would be my guess based on the size of your cages. They are nice enclosures. I was really on the fence about using 2 heating sources or 1 and really, I was having a difficult time ditching the heat lamp idea because I had doubts the RHP would work. I was told to call Bob direct from Ed, my cage maker. I guess I'm happy so far which is nice.

I was so close to going the short tailed python route. I ended up with my beautiful Barranquilla Colombian boa which I love, but every time I see one of those bloods I get an urge.

I'm way off topic now, but those short tails fascinate me for whatever reason.

Have a good evening!

I have a boaphile with built in flexwatt and it has a precut hole in it for a thermostat probe. Maybe you can look into getting one like this?

This was a good read.

I'm planning on using a RHP, and also flexwatt. The probe for my flexwatt sits directly on the bottom of the cage (inside). It gets covered by about an inch or 2 of coconut husk. The husk doesn't pose any issues for me, since the heat is coming from below.

I'm using the RHP to achieve a nice hot spot, not to raise the inside ambient temperature. If I put the probe on the bottom of the cage (inside) and then cover it with husk - with the RHP heat through the husk, or will the temperature on the top of the coconut husk be hotter than the probe indicates?

I'm still a bit confused as to where the best place is to put the probe.