What's the worst that could happen?

As I was rinsing out a tub that I just disinfected with bleach (over and over and over) it occurred to me that I don't know exactly WHY I was doing it. Yes, I know it's bad to have any bleach residue, but I don't know the actual consequences. Will it poison the snake? Irritate it's skin? Cause the apocalypse?

So I thought a thread that outlined common husbandry mistakes along with the Worst Possible Scenario consequences might be helpful to me and other new BP keepers. I'm thinking of things like adhesives, overheating, feeding issues, low humidity, etc.

Can the more experienced members post along the lines of "If you don't do X then X could happen"? Pics would be helpful as well.

Thanks!

If you leave bleach residue that will be harmful to any creature.

http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/down...leach0809_.pdf



If you wash the bleach away completely then it's fine. I use diluted bleach to clean. Just make sure there is no hint of that bleach smell and thoroughly rinsed. You don't have to rinse it 5000 times, just make sure that smell is FOR SURE gone

Yeah... not really what I was going for here. I know that bleach is bad (Umkay). I was aiming for an instructive thread with examples that might be a good reference (and catalog of cautionary tales) for new keepers.

I don't know. In emergency situations, we've told that putting a capful of bleach into a gallon of water will disinfect it for drinking... but even a trace amount in a enclosure is supposed to be horrifyingly dangerous.

I'd like to see the scientific type explanations too. It's always interesting to see WHY we do the things the way we do.

Don't get fixated on the bleach, y'all. The perfect example (that I can't find the thread for) is the guy that let the temp get too high on his UTH and his snake got a bad burn. Pics and links to threads would be helpful.

I dont think i've ever heard of a keeper's animal getting hurt/killed from improper use of bleach. It's not exactly that easy for bleach residue to soak in through their scales. I'd be more concerned about the fumes, personally.

and why never to put tape anywhere around your setup :P ill post links later

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Originally Posted by Tannerrrtx

and why never to put tape anywhere around your setup :P ill post links later

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Tape is fine on the outside. You just gotta be careful and pay attention. :gj:

why use bleach anyway?

that would be my question, why is everyone using bleach? Bleach here, bleach there, i dont get it.

Yeah, its a powerful disinfectant with the ability to kill all known lifeforms. But it also attacks plastics, and when a plastic surface is chemically attacked or corroded, toxins can get out of the plastic no matter how long you wash it afterwards.

i recommend the method of disinfection we use for the plates and forks and spoons and knives we use, and even for baby bottles. Hot water with some dishwashing liquid followed by cold clean water. If its good enough to disinfect milk bottles for our own babies, why shouldnt that be enough for our snakes? The heat does the disinfection, and a bit of dishwasher unlike bleach cannot hurt my snake and also cannot eat my hand off.

Also, no bacteria or virus can survive for long on a clean and dry and smooth surface. So you can just take your tubs and water bowls outside, blast them clean with cold water at high pressure, let the stuff dry, let it rest for a few days, and for all practical purposes its clean. not sterile because new bacteria arrive being carried through the air, but clean enough to rule out any transmission from one snake to another. So why even use bleach? Why not get the stuff used for antibacterial and antiviral disinfection on human hands? or medicinal alcohol, which quickly evaporates? or a hydrogen peroxide solution, which also quickly evaporates?

People try so hard to keep their snakes absolutely sterile, reaching for the most agressive cleaning products, and then feed them living or dead rhodents. Uncooked. Not deep-fried, sometimes deep-frozen. Containing some poop, among other things. Anyone else see a contradiction here?

Sigh... THIS THREAD IS NOT JUST ABOUT BLEACH!!!! Do you people even read the OP?

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

why use bleach anyway?

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Because i can get it for free and because it works.

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

Sigh... THIS THREAD IS NOT JUST ABOUT BLEACH!!!! Do you people even read the OP?

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THERE'S ONLY BEEN LIKE FIVE RESPONSES TAKE A CHILL
PILL.

Use a tstat because without it the unregulated heating devices can get too hot and melt the tubs, crack the glass, burn your snake.

Don't use tape inside the enclosure because it can get stuck to your snake and cause problems.

Don't use any decorations with holes in them that your snake could wedge itself into.

Don't setup heavy decorations in your tank without securing them. The huge log looks nice until it falls and crushes your snake.

Don't use cedar bedding in the cage, it can be harmful to the snake. Feeding rodents that were raised in cedar bedding can be problematic too.

I can't think of anything else at the moment.

THWI. Apparently some of y'all just don't know how to read. It probably WOULD have been helpful to new herp keepers, but I guess ego is more important.

I honestly don't know what you're asking then. I'm not bringing any ego into it. Ask me anything, ill answer you honestly. I'm quite proficient at reading; however, I apparently can't comprehend what you're asking...? :confused:

Whoa... Like chill, dude. I don't think anyone was purposely trying to mess up the thread.

Sent from microwave via Tapatalk ll

I thought i did what he was asking... Listing important red flags for new owners to avoid. I don't have any personal experience with them because I did my research and haven't really made any major mistakes, so far, knock on wood. That has nothing to do with my ego, just how it is lol.

I would've thought so too. Imo most of the things to avoid should be fairly apparent and apply to most animals. No toxic fumes, be sure enclosures are secure, no strong chemicals, etc.

Sent from microwave via Tapatalk ll

C'mon. I even put a template for response in the OP. Purposeful or not, no one paid the slightest bit of attention to it.

I'm out of give a crap at this point. I can find the info if I want, others might not be able to so easily. I thought a nice, neat digest of common errors and consequences would be helpful, but it doesn't seem to be popular. C'est la vie.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

I think the OP was looking for something like this...

If you buy substrate from Home Depot make sure to check for this "........" otherwise, this could happen "........"
If you don't use a thermostat, this could happen "........"
If you don't have the proper humidity, this could happen "........"
If you don't properly secure your rack, this could happen "........"

And so on......

A general check list of some do's and don'ts doesn't seem like a bad idea.

If i give you a template for removing objects from your rectum, would you pay attention to that? It would probably be in your best interest to seek out medical help if you can't get the stick out yourself. It appears to be lodged in pretty deep.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

If i give you a template for removing objects from your rectum, would you pay attention to that? It would probably be in your best interest to seek out medical help if you can't get the stick out yourself. It appears to be lodged in pretty deep.

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Wow, you're seriously giving me crap for being irritated that a thread I was trying to get going for the good of the community went off the rails immediately? You can take that stick and suck on it.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

I think it was more your attitude in reaction to ppl's posts. No one was intentionally not paying attention. Might be good to learn some diplomacy in the future, you'd probably get a better response. Catch more flies with honey and all that.

Sent from microwave via Tapatalk ll

It didn't go off the rails. I and others tried to answer you a few times and instead of clarifying or redirecting like a normal person, you just freaked out.

I'm too afraid to put that stick anywhere near my mouth. Who knows what diseases its covered with.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

I think it was more your attitude in reaction to ppl's posts. No one was intentionally not paying attention. Might be good to learn some diplomacy in the future, you'd probably get a better response. Catch more flies with honey and all that.

Sent from microwave via Tapatalk ll

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I can accept that. I'm not in the most patient of moods tonight. I did try to gently redirect the posts back to the format requested in the OP several times before I threw up my hands and quit, though.

Oh, well. Might as well just let this one die. It's got serious flame war potential, and I don't think anyone wants to catch a ban or infraction or whatever from it escalating.

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

Yeah... not really what I was going for here. I know that bleach is bad (Umkay). I was aiming for an instructive thread with examples that might be a good reference (and catalog of cautionary tales) for new keepers.

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

Don't get fixated on the bleach, y'all. The perfect example (that I can't find the thread for) is the guy that let the temp get too high on his UTH and his snake got a bad burn. Pics and links to threads would be helpful.

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

Sigh... THIS THREAD IS NOT JUST ABOUT BLEACH!!!! Do you people even read the OP?

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

It didn't go off the rails. I and others tried to answer you a few times and instead of clarifying or redirecting like a normal person, you just freaked out.

I'm too afraid to put that stick anywhere near my mouth. Who knows what diseases its covered with.

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Try to redirect it like that? Apparently I was right, you do have issues with reading.

I gave examples that didn't involve bleach though. How was that not what you wanted?

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I gave examples that didn't involve bleach though. How was that not what you wanted?

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You're right. One post in this entire 3 page thread somewhat resembles what I was thinking of. That one post is buried under a page and a half discussion of bleach (That'll teach me to use an example) and another full page+ of you acting like a jacknugget. And probably me acting like one as well. I dunno, hard to see outside yourself once you get going.

I only decided to be an ass once you started belittling everyone. You push, i push back lol.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I only decided to be an ass once you started belittling everyone. You push, i push back lol.

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Fair enough. If this was real life I'd buy you a beer and we both let it drop. Since it's not, I'm gonna go grab a beer, why don't you grab one too, and we'll pretend. :gj:

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

Fair enough. If this was real life I'd buy you a beer and we both let it drop.

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You're lucky its not real life then, otherwise you could be arrested and charged with "providing alcohol to a minor". Don't worry, i won't tell lol. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

You're lucky its not real life then, otherwise you could be arrested and charged with "providing alcohol to a minor". Don't worry, i won't tell lol. ;)

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Oops, my bad. I'm used to adult-only forums. Ok, youngster. Go grab a glass of milk then. :P

I'm going to bed, it'll be water for me or ill wakeup with heartburn haha. :)

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/a...s/531864_o.gif

(Does anybody else love watching when threads turn into catfights or is that just me?)

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

I'm used to adult-only forums.

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This is also why you have to be more understanding when posting. You have middle schoolers on here responding so if they don't get what you're saying then you can't immediately freakout on them haha.

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Originally Posted by Inarikins

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/a...s/531864_o.gif

(Does anybody else love watching when threads turn into catfights or is that just me?)

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No. Ok, yes.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

This is also why you have to be more understanding when posting. You have middle schoolers on here responding so if they don't get what you're saying then you can't immediately freakout on them haha.

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Definitely not something I'm used to. I'll try to take that into account.

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

Sigh... THIS THREAD IS NOT JUST ABOUT BLEACH!!!! Do you people even read the OP?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

THWI. Apparently some of y'all just don't know how to read. It probably WOULD have been helpful to new herp keepers, but I guess ego is more important.

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

C'mon. I even put a template for response in the OP. Purposeful or not, no one paid the slightest bit of attention to it.

I'm out of give a crap at this point. I can find the info if I want, others might not be able to so easily. I thought a nice, neat digest of common errors and consequences would be helpful, but it doesn't seem to be popular. C'est la vie.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by ChaosAffect

Wow, you're seriously giving me crap for being irritated that a thread I was trying to get going for the good of the community went off the rails immediately? You can take that stick and suck on it.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

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Time for a chill pill much? You're coming across a bit abrasive, with all the negative and caps lock. Perhaps a different thread title and original post? Like maybe, things to learn from. Things to do or not... Seems to me somebody may just be in a mood tonight.

As far as what you hoped for out of this thread-

Don't use flexwatt, or heat pads with out a good thermostat.

Don't put neosporin on your snake.

Don't feed live and leave unattended.

Don't ever try to remove stuck eye caps.

Don't soak your bp prior to a shed "to help with the shed".

Don't worry about your bp ingesting substrate, they break down bones...

Make sure you quarantine new animals.

Don't move your animals to feed.

And there is a care sheet for newbies...

And a search function for questions...

I lol'd when I read the title of this thread then read through the posts. The irony.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I'm too afraid to put that stick anywhere near my mouth. Who knows what diseases its covered with.

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Disinfect it with a diluted Bleach solution (or antibacterial hand/dish soap, if you prefer) and rinse well and you should be fine. If you don't disinfect first, you could get....well, something bad.


(is this what we're after? I couldn't think of any non-infraction-inducing ways to put the consequences of putting the stick into your mouth prior to disinfection, and I couldn't find appropriate images either, but overall am I on the right track?)

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

Time for a chill pill much? You're coming across a bit abrasive, with all the negative and caps lock. Perhaps a different thread title and original post? Like maybe, things to learn from. Things to do or not... Seems to me somebody may just be in a mood tonight.

As far as what you hoped for out of this thread-

Don't use flexwatt, or heat pads with out a good thermostat.

Don't put neosporin on your snake.

Don't feed live and leave unattended.

Don't ever try to remove stuck eye caps.

Don't soak your bp prior to a shed "to help with the shed".

Don't worry about your bp ingesting substrate, they break down bones...

Make sure you quarantine new animals.

Don't move your animals to feed.

And there is a care sheet for newbies...

And a search function for questions...

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Yeah, I don't give a rat's nether quarters any more.

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

I lol'd when I read the title of this thread then read through the posts. The irony.

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No kidding.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by Inarikins

(Does anybody else love watching when threads turn into catfights or is that just me?)

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Hahaha me too. I'm glad everyone made up tho.

Actually, this really is a good idea- I had absolutely no idea that tape was a bad idea and might have used it to keep the thermometer probes where I wanted them until I happened to see a brief "don't use tape" comment. Then someone posted a "Oh no! My snake got stuck on some tape and what do I do about fixing him!" thread, complete with pictures that may convince me to clear the entire house of tape in case she gets out

There are some really nasty rescue pictures here, but for the most part we are here because we mean well and want to do our best. I know in my life I've done the most damage when I'm trying hard but don't know just how much I don't know. I can ask questions and look stuff up, but not if I don't even know it's a thing, you know what I mean? The same stuff gets posted all the time, what are the less common things that come up? Someone mentioned big heavy logs- but what about lots of fake plants? They seem kind of impenetrable and Pandora already got stuck and had to back her head out of my one fake vine at just the right angle, and I was about to reach in and help her when she figured it out. I really want a bunch but not at the risk of strangling my snake- so are there fake plant do and dont's? Or poop. It doesnt get talked about too much and I have absolutely no idea what's normal, so it's going to be a big problem before I figure out its maybe not right.

Many years ago I had a shoebox where I had stuck some tape to the underside of the lid, I don't remember why but it was there. Eventually I needed to use the shoebox to house a baby corn snake, I made sure to peel the tape off of the underside of the lid and figured everything was fine. One day when I went in to check on my snake, I opened the box and peered in. No snake. I tore that place up looking for my escaped snake. Eventually I gave up and went to put the shoebox back in the rack. I picked up the lid and turned it over. There was my snake hanging upside down stuck to the underside of the shoebox lid. Enough of the stickum from the tape had been transfered to the lid to hold the little guy tight. BTW, olive oil and a q-tip work great for freeing a snake from a sticky situation. :D

. . .

1) Do not use a heating source (UTH, heat tape, CHE, etc) without a thermoSTAT. Otherwise, you can burn your snake, melt tubs, cause fires, etc with an unregulated source.

2) Do not keep the thermoSTAT probe in the enclosure. It can get damaged or moved by the animal, thus giving you inaccurate readings and burn your animal.

3) Do not use tape in the enclosure. Your snake can get stuck and/or stripped of it's scales.

4) Be careful on how you tape your probe. If you tape(especially foil tape) over the whole probe, it can trap heat, thus giving you inaccurate readings. It will read warmer and regulate your heating source at a lower temperature. It is best just to tape down the cord closest to the probe and possibly the very tip of the probe.

5) Replace heating elements every few years.

6) Beware of cage accessories that have holes. Snakes can get stuck. (i.e. plastic/ceramic logs and skulls)

7) Try not to use the half log hides. They are not adequate hides due to the duel sided openings. They are also very difficult to sanitize and often mold.

8) Do not use Cedar or Pine bedding. The oils can cause respiratory issues and even death. (However, Kiln dried pine is safe)

9) Do no feed wild caught prey. Wild caught animals could get into poisons or toxic chemicals that can kill your snake. Also parasites are a possibility.

10) Do not leave live prey with your snake for an extended period of time. This is the number one cause for feeder related snake deaths. People leave their rats in for hours-days, and the rats go hungry. They eat the only other thing in the enclosure, aka the snake. And always keep feeders well fed and hydrated. Do not leave the feeder in with your snake for longer than 30 minutes max.

11) Always feed the appropriate sized live prey. I personally like smaller and more frequent meals than larger and less often. Weanlings and small rats are safe and harmless(to some extent). They're also not as conscious to danger as an adult would be. Adult rats can pack a nasty bite and are much stronger at fighting back, which is why "smaller and more frequent" is the way to go. A medium size would be the max appropriate live size for a ball python.

12) Don't dangle the live feeder. This puts them in panic mode. A freaked out feeder is a dangerous feeder. Gently place the feeder into your enclosure. Calm feeders are good.

13) Always thaw out F/T feeders thoroughly. A F/T feeder with a still frozen core will shock a snake's system and possibly cause death.

14) Do not use hydrogen peroxide on a wound continuously. It damages and kills healing tissue.

15) Do not use Neosporin with Pain Killer. It is toxic to snakes.

16) Do not use regular Neosporin extensively (more than a handful of times) because it softens and flakes off scales.

17) Beware of aerosols, scent plug ins, etc. These can be dangerous for snakes.

18) Do not touch stuck eye caps. You can accidentally remove the live membrane encasing the eye. The eye would be a definite loss if this happens. Just bump up the humidity and make sure the humidity is spot on for the next shed. It will come off with the next shed.

19) Always quarantine new arrivals COMPLETELY SEPARATE from your resident animals. (aka in a different room as far away as possible)
I personally QT for a minimum of 6 months. Some diseases and illnesses have been known to incubate up to 9 months before becoming active.

20) Always treat new animals for mites. It is a good preventative measure to protect your collection. Mites can spread very quickly. Eggs can lie dormant for months before hatching in ideal environmental conditions. The nymph stage of mites is also airborne.

21) When a snake has RI, always get a culture done. It will save you time and money in the long run. There are 3 types of RI; bacterial, viral, and fungal. You need a culture done to narrow down what type of RI it is and what type of treatment it needs. Not all treatments work for certain types of RI. Not all antibiotics will work for certain types of bacterial infections, which is the most common form of RI.

21) If using bleach to disinfect enclosures, make sure to wipe down the residue. The fumes are harmful.

22) It is HIGHLY recommend not to house multiple ball pythons together for reasons other than breeding. While it is doable, it is not recommend for new keepers. It is rare, but there have been cases of cannibalism, illness/mite transfer, etc.

23) Know the laws regarding your pets. Know local, state, federal laws. Your animals can be confiscated and you can get fined if you are keeping them illegally.

That is all I can think for now. If I come up with something else, I'll add it later.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

14) Do not use hydrogen peroxide on a wound continuously. It damages and kills healing tissue.

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There's no point in using Hydrogen Peroxide at all. It's been proven that it's poor choice for wound care: http://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/Abst...mmonly.10.aspx

Regarding Euthanasia:

1) Do not stick your live animal into the freezer. Freezing is NOT a humane method. Freezing is one of the most inhumane methods to euthanize a snake or anything for the matter. Freezing is highly painful. It can take hours for a snake to freeze to death. Because they are cold blooded, reptiles do not loose consciousness like mammals do when freezing. They can feel their cells freeze and burst. Putting a hand in ice water for 30 seconds hurts us already. I can't imagine doing that for hours...

2) Do not put your snake in a Co2 chamber. Co2 is not a good way to euthanize reptiles. Reptiles have a slow respiratory rate and metabolism. They go through spans of apnea, where they don't need air. So it would take a very very long time to euthanize via CO2. Quite agonizing really. Some may not even die because the person doesn't leave them in the Co2 chamber long enough. It takes a mouse roughly 2 minutes to die in a Co2 chamber. I can guarantee it won't take 2 minutes for a snake to die. Overall, not a very effective or efficient method.

3) Cutting off the head is inhumane because the head is still alive and can feel pain.

4) Pithing takes a little more skill, so it can be done incorrectly. But I don't suppose most people are using that specific technique anyway.

5) The only humane method for snakes you can do at home is instantaneous brain destruction(Crushing or destroying brain tissue).
And while it is not pretty, smashing, crushing, or chopping the head itself is the most effective way to euthanize a snake yourself.

If you take a snake to the vet, they will euthanize it with either an overdose of anesthesia or a cardiac puncture to the heart if a vein cannot be located in smaller animals. Don't worry about pain. The snakes are put under anesthesia during the heart puncture procedure. It's illegal to not do so.

Settle down everyone.

If I was a new keeper, I would RATHER see 4 pages of discussion on what's safe/not safe regarding bleach than one line in one post that says "Bleach is bad. Don't use it." I would want to know WHY I can't use bleach. That's what the discussion is fore. Then, once the bleach topic has been hashed out, you move onto the next: no thermostat on the UTH. hash that one out for 10 pages and then move onto the next. That is IMMENSELY more informative than just one line in a post. if you talk about it a lot, you'll be able to find more hits using the "search" function which will lead no owners to this thread.

So OP, just let the people discuss things, in the end (even though you can't control it and I have a feeling you are wanting to be a control freak), this thread will help far more people.

Just my :2cent:

satomi325 for the win!

That list is a quick copy, paste and print.

Although it makes logical sense, I would not have prepared to replace all the heating in a just a couple more years. (#5)

Number 16 stands out as something new for me also. Again, it makes perfectly logical sense.

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Originally Posted by BHReptiles

Settle down everyone.

If I was a new keeper, I would RATHER see 4 pages of discussion on what's safe/not safe regarding bleach than one line in one post that says "Bleach is bad. Don't use it." I would want to know WHY I can't use bleach. That's what the discussion is for. Then, once the bleach topic has been hashed out, you move onto the next: no thermostat on the UTH. hash that one out for 10 pages and then move onto the next. That is IMMENSELY more informative than just one line in a post. if you talk about it a lot, you'll be able to find more hits using the "search" function which will lead new owners to this thread.

So OP, just let the people discuss things, in the end (even though you can't control it and I have a feeling you are wanting to be a control freak), this thread will help far more people.

Just my :2cent:

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Typing fail :/

i just want to add my 0.02,
that list is great, dont get me wrong.
but expanding on the idea of this thread, a "dos" and "donts" list should be put together eliminating ANY grey area that could possibly be left,
someone new could have a random thought " oh dont use bleach, ill use (insert cleaning agent here) and nothing will happen," yet turns to be toxic to the animal.
i guess im suggesting a "safe" list? i dont know haha just rambling :P