Gravid or Not? Xrays and Ultrsound Images

So I took my girl to be ultrasounded and radiographed to look for follicles. I got back the results and was excited to see she had eggs. But then on anothor post in this forum I was told the "eggs" looked more like follicles... So which is it? I am seriously starting to second guess myself, but after watching NERD videos, and examining other people's snake x-rays I am thinking she is gravid. I am interested in any feedback because this whole process is a learning experience for me. I am in vet school, and hoping to go into herp medicine. This ball python is also the first one I have bred, and so I am stressed out about her taking or not. Here are the images:

The Ultrasound image taken on April 18th:
http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...ps132d9080.jpg

Lateral Mid Body Radiograph with what I think are 5 eggs (or are they follicles?)
http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...psc0364903.jpg

Full body view for size and orientation
http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1367434840

Lying on her back resting her belly on April 25th
http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8b1add57.jpg

Looks like she is getting fatter to me (she has not eaten since April 10th), also note the very deflated tail (does that have meaning?):
http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...pse1f46a6f.jpg

Full body view. She has a swelling in the last 2/3 of her body and is getting a prominent spine. Also appreciate her whacked out pattern that I hope is reproducible!
http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1367435068

Thoughts, anyone?

Those are eggs :gj: Congrats!! :) Great looking girl by the way!!!

Seriously cool-looking girl! And yes, eggies!!

Amazing looking female!
Eggs for sure!
Congrats :)

You must really like designer brand names!

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Originally Posted by BranceM

You must really like designer brand names!

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Haha! Actually it started as a joke when I got my first ball python. I was trying to find a really good name for it, and had narrowed it down to names of a couple of snakes from movies and books. Then I showed the snake to a coworker who immediately said, "it is the color of a Gucci purse!"... and hence the name Gucci... Too bad Gucci turned out to be male! I thought it would be fun to stick with designer names for the second snake... and since then the trend has continued. I was thinking a new tradition should be created for the second generation... Maybe candy names :P

Those are great pics.....good luck.

Wow she's super cool! I agree, those sure look like eggs to me!

Very cool egg pictures! Thanks for sharing!

I think I've only seen maybe 2-3 ultrasound pictures and even i know that those are eggs!

Woo! Congrats, that's awesome

Definitely eggs. You can't see follicles in an X-ray.. At least not from our experience. What do they measure in length? Anything much bigger than 45mm is likely eggs, not follicles.

What is she, besides awesomely gorgeous! Where did you get her? She's a great looking snake. What's the sire? Congrats on a gravid female, and good luck!

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Originally Posted by ClarkT

Definitely eggs. You can't see follicles in an X-ray.. At least not from our experience. What do they measure in length? Anything much bigger than 45mm is likely eggs, not follicles.

What is she, besides awesomely gorgeous! Where did you get her? She's a great looking snake. What's the sire? Congrats on a gravid female, and good luck!

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Thanks for the awesome feedback. Unfortunately we did not measure the eggs on ultrasound because the people doing the ultrasound thought it was gas in the colon. Luckily the took a screen shot anyway, but I do not have a measurement on it. I would guess it is over 4 cm though, since the screen, I believe, measures about 4 cm across... I didn't think follicles would show up on x-ray either due to a lack of calcium deposition at that point. Good to know someone else agrees.

The girl is actually a CB dinker I picked up from a small breeder on kingsnake.com. So her background is a mystery, and I may have opened a bag of snakes, so speak! I am crossing my fingers,and toes, that she throws something that looks like her. I bred her to my normal male just to see what happens. Next year if she is ready for a second clutch, I might try a co-dominant on her.

Again, thanks for the feedback!

Perhaps they are follicles?

This is my girl when she was gravid, but maybe she was just further along (she laid 16 days after this x-ray)

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...pse4bc53a1.jpg

Also of note, X-rays don't only see stuff with calcium, in my girl's x-ray you can make out her heart, a huge load of doo, her lungs and some urates.

To me, April 25th kind of looks like ovulation?

Very cool pics! Thanks for posting them!

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

Also of note, X-rays don't only see stuff with calcium, in my girl's x-ray you can make out her heart, a huge load of doo, her lungs and some urates.

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Thank you for your image. It is nice to have a comparison, especially with the lay date! I agree with you about stuff other than calcium showing up. I just completed a course in diagnostic imaging and we learnt about the five different opacities. In general Air (Black)<Fat<Fluid (soft tissue)<Mineral (Bone)<Metal(white)... Since follicles would be classified at soft tissue I would think that unless they were surrounded by air they would be difficult to see. This is known as silhouette sign. Your image captured the heart very nicely. I assume this is because the heart is more muscular and so it is thicker and shows up more. You can also see the lungs because they are full of air and less dense. Fecal matter is easy to see because they eat whole animals containing bone.

Wow, that girl is definitely dinkworthy. Good luck with her!

First of all, that female is amazing! Congrats and please keep us updated :)

Update:
So today I took her out and weighed her. In since march she has gained weight with only one small rat meal in april. She has also been coiled up on the heat a lot, but right now I just noticed her soaking in her water for about 15 minutes. She is just now heading back to her heat. What is she doing? She is driving me crazy with these mixed messages! When I had her out earlier, I thought I saw egg lumps in her belly when I held her in the air, but maybe I was imagining them? Otherwise she doesn't look pregnant to me! I hope she still has those eggs cooking...

I'm still thinkin those were follicles and that was an ovulation on April 25th lol

She's awful skinny looking :(
I agree the pic on the 25th does look like she's glowing and ovulating.

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

I'm still thinkin those were follicles and that was an ovulation on April 25th lol

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I think you might be right. If her ovulation date was the 29th of April, which is when I took that photo, then she is due for pre lay shed on about the 20th, and she went gray two days ago... right on time! Fingers crossed :)

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

She's awful skinny looking :(
I agree the pic on the 25th does look like she's glowing and ovulating.

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I know, she is not as fat as I would like her. She was a good weight when I started pairing her, but then my F/T and Live supplier ran out of rats for weeks. I stopped pairing her so I could get her fed, but by the time the food supply started again she ate one small meal and then started refusing :( I am hoping this doesn't take too much out of her. She has been gaining weight despite not eating... go figure!

Snake Den: In your image, notice the follicles are mid-body. I've noticed through this season (my first with an ultrasound) that after ovulation, the eggs move much closer to the tip of the tail, as is shown in SquamishSerpents' image. I would definitely say that in your xray that she had not ovulated yet.

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

Snake Den: In your image, notice the follicles are mid-body. I've noticed through this season (my first with an ultrasound) that after ovulation, the eggs move much closer to the tip of the tail, as is shown in SquamishSerpents' image. I would definitely say that in your xray that she had not ovulated yet.

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Thank you for explaining this. I haven't been able to find any information about location and movement of the follicles/eggs over time. I think it would be a great research project to take a whole bunch of snakes and watch and document the development of the follicles into eggs both through ultrasound and radiographs. It is one thing to hear people say, I think it is this or that, but it is another to have some evidence behind it. You and SquamishSerpents are helping me get a better understanding of the process :) Thank you

So after waiting 59 days, since the time those first radiographs and ultrasound images were taken (April 18), my girl finally laid five perfect eggs, and on Father's Day no less! I am excited to have my first ever clutch on the ground!

When I first looked in the tub all I saw were four eggs...
http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/...psf9bd8105.jpg

But then she moved her head and revealed a fifth :)
http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/...psf51f75ad.jpg

Needless to say I am a pretty proud owner, and hoping I can get the eggs hatching without too many hiccups!
http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/...psba06b13b.jpg

Ugh! I wish I didn't have to wait another ~55 days!

Whoohoooooo, congrats! Nice big pearly whites! And congrats to me on being right about the radiograph, lol.

I think we can pretty much confirm that what you were seeing there was her follicles very very close to ovulation.

Is that a normal?? Def a very cool and unusual one! Cant wait to see the babies!

sent from my incubator

Hey soooooo, these eggs should have hatched by now!

Updates?

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

Hey soooooo, these eggs should have hatched by now!

Updates?

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Yes they did :-) 4/5 hatched nicely, but one started slitting the egg then drowned. Here is the link to my baby thread: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...65#post2133665 The little ones are just about to have their first shed. Fingers crossed they will take their first meal easily for me. It was a great learning experience. This coming season is going to be even more exciting! I was happy with the babies. They don't quite look normal to me or my friends that have seen them and know balls. I am going to keep working with the Dinker project and see if there is something going on or not.