Newbee question - about color change in females

I purchased an adult GTP about 6 months ago. I was told it was a Biak about 18 months old. Sex unknown. It was being fed 3 adult live mice a week and still had pieces of shed on different parts of its body. I took it home, cleaned its stinky cage and replaced it's skinny perch with another twice the size (which I think is still too small - I'm still learning here). I have been feeding it small rats every week and it has had two complete sheds since I've had it. I've noticed some of the scales along its sides and around its face have turned blue. The same blue color as the BP.net banner above. Would this color change be an indication of its sex? I understand that some female GTPs turn blue when they are ready to have sex - some more so than others.
I don't know that much about GTPs and I've been trying to learn as much as I can as quickly as I can, so I do right by mine (it's name is Puffers).
Oh, Puffers is about 5 feet long and very happy now. Still would prefer I not handle it, but I insist most of the time.

Andy-:snake:

I would be very surprised if your 18 month old biak is 5 feet long. :) We only feed our chondros mice....you might want to go back on a mouse diet as they are much better for chondros than rats. Also, do not feed too large of meals. Color change takes place around 12-24 months, biaks it can take upto 3+ years. Females only turn hormonal blue when they are developing follicles or when they are gravid.....yours is a ways away from that, if it is indeed female.....and the color shift does not go by scales, they go ALL blue. However, not all chondros will turn hormonal blue, mostly only arus, and snakes with blue undertones. It's common for most chondros to have some blue hues, so this is probably normal. You can post a photo (or email it to me if you don't know how to post a photo, tikigator@gmail.com) and I can give you more insight to age, etc. Chondros make great display snakes and prefer not to be handled.....they are not "play with" snakes and it can stress them out tremendously. Their spines are very fragile, they should never be taken off the perch and if you insist on handling yours always make sure you are very careful when doing so. Biaks are known to be more aggressive, I don't know anyone who ever wants to handle their biak. :rolleyes:

If you are new to chondros a great tool for you would be to purchase the book by greg maxwell, the more complete chondro. in the book you will find answers to all of your questions including husbandry, color morphing, sexual development, and more. every chondro owner should have that book. he is coming out with a reprint in the next couple weeks so if you cannot find one, check amazon soon! good luck and let me know if there is anything else i can help you with!

The age sounds off. I think it might be older than you were told if it really is 5 feet. Do you know its weight? Feeding three mice might be a bit much, but maybe they are smaller than what I'm used to.

That book is available for the Kindle app. It is much cheaper to download than find a hard copy.

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We only feed our chondros mice....you might want to go back on a mouse diet as they are much better for chondros than rats

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For simplicity here, I'm going to assume Puffers is a girl...

Gosh, I thought I was doing right by her by feeding rats. I've been told (and read) that rats were better for Ball Pythons so I assumed this would be the case for Puffers. Mice won't be a problem though. I have plenty of those too. How many mice should I be feeding it? Is three per week enough? Doesn't seem like much given the size of this snake.

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You can post a photo (or email it to me if you don't know how to post a photo, tikigator@gmail.com) and I can give you more insight to age, etc.

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Puffers is in shed right now, so I hate to disturb her for a photo shoot. I'll see if I can find a photo I took when I first got her, but they were all taken while she was coiled up on her perch.

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Chondros make great display snakes and prefer not to be handled.....they are not "play with" snakes and it can stress them out tremendously. Their spines are very fragile, they should never be taken off the perch and if you insist on handling yours always make sure you are very careful when doing so. Biaks are known to be more aggressive, I don't know anyone who ever wants to handle their biak. :rolleyes:

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Once out of it's enclosure, Puffers seems to like being out. She doesn't strike or anything and likes to explore and look out the window. I enjoy handling her but I never pull on her to get her out or off her perch. I just tickle her along the neck and body encouraging her to crawl out on my arm or into my hands. I'm VERY gentle with her because I've read/heard they have very brittle bones and shouldn't even be handled until they are a year old.

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Do you know its weight?

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I haven't weighed puffers. I'm not sure how I would do that. She's too active out of her cage and there's no way to weigh it, inside the cage. Maybe I can figure out a way to make a perch that will set on the scale or something.

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If you are new to chondros a great tool for you would be to purchase the book by greg maxwell, the more complete chondro. in the book you will find answers to all of your questions including husbandry, color morphing, sexual development, and more. every chondro owner should have that book. he is coming out with a reprint in the next couple weeks so if you cannot find one, check amazon soon! good luck and let me know if there is anything else i can help you with!

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Someone in another thread suggested this book and I ordered it straight away from eBay for only $60.00. It arrived in the mail today and I can't wait to get home tonight and start reading it.

Thanks to BOTH of you for your help and insight into the care of Puffers. I want only the best for my snakes. I've been thinking of getting a Neo. to keep Puffers company when it grows up, but I'd better make sure I'm doing things right with Puffers first.




Andy-:snake:

You don't have to disturb her to take a photoshoot lol....just snap a pic of her on her perch, that is how photos of chondros are supposed to be taken :) see below....these are all photos I have taken of chondros here at my home. And yes rats are great for ball pythons, chondros are NOT ball pythons, not even close. Different in everyway. Usually a large mouse once a week is sufficient. She may beg at the door as many do but that does not mean she is hungry. Have fun reading, it's a great book!

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/files/2/2/0/5/1/ivy.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/jennifer.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/padaido1.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...0/5/1/vino.jpg

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Originally Posted by Andys-Python

Gosh, I thought I was doing right by her by feeding rats. I've been told (and read) that rats were better for Ball Pythons so I assumed this would be the case for Puffers. Mice won't be a problem though. I have plenty of those too. How many mice should I be feeding it? Is three per week enough? Doesn't seem like much given the size of this snake.

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You obviously recognize your mistake thanks to Tikigator, lol, but never assume that what is good for one species is good for another. Balls are terrestrial snakes and do well on larger fattier rodents. GTPs, being arboreal, do much better with smaller lighter prey. :gj:


I feed my adult 5 ft male one large (maybe a jumbo) mouse every 2 weeks. No more than that. He is 9 years old and is a true 5 ft in length. He is a proven male and in his prime. Conversely, our 20 month old female Jayapura is about 30 inches in length and is eating a single mouse hopper each week. In other words, feed ONE mouse per week at this age. Once your baby is over 2 years old, you can, and most likely should, switch to feeding every 2 weeks. Less is better with GTPs.

Btw, some GTPs actually DO like to be handled. My male, Hunter, is a dreamboat and will settle with my hubby for hours at a time or hang out with me on my computer. Our female is also super sweet once out of her enclosure. She is young, so she tends to be more active, but she's very friendly. We handle both of them regularly. Of course neither one is a Biak.... :P


This is Hunter. He is a PNG x OSHY male bred by Rico Walder and purchased from Rocky Gravley. Pictured here with Rocky's 8 year old son.
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...thons/wes1.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...ons/Hunter.jpg

And this is Grianne. She is a pure Jayapura bred by and purchased from Alli Watson.
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...ps379c532c.jpg

To weigh a wiggling snake I will put them in a pillowcase and then in the bowl on my scale. Of course you should place the bowl with the pillowcase on the scale and press the TARE button to zero out the scale then add the snake.

You can get a cheap digital kitchen scale on amazon or WalMart.

Feeding mice over rats is new to me. Even the book says to feed either. I have been feeding mine rats and he is a very healthy boy. I was feeding him weekly after getting his RI cleared up that he got with his previous owner. He was underweight. Now he goes every two weeks.

Mine also really seems to enjoy getting time out of his cage. He is very courious and out going. He is pretty relaxed most of the time. He has tagged me before but its not a common occurrence.

Tikigator, the gtp in the first pic is a knockout. I'm a sucker for the blues they can produce.

If you want to weigh your snake do not stress them by bagging them....simply put a small tub or bucket on the scale, take the snake out on the perch and rest the perch on the tub or bucket. Then weigh the tub and another perch separate and subtract. Why stress your snake?? Keep it simple. You really don't need to weigh....just post a picture!! Lol.

We have the largest collection of designer chondros in the nation.......trust me on the mouse thing. ;)

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Originally Posted by KMG

Tikigator, the gtp in the first pic is a knockout. I'm a sucker for the blues they can produce.

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Putting up a thread for you in a minute :)

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Originally Posted by tikigator

If you want to weigh your snake do not stress them by bagging them....simply put a small tub or bucket on the scale, take the snake out on the perch and rest the perch on the tub or bucket. Then weigh the tub and another perch separate and subtract. Why stress your snake?? Keep it simple. You really don't need to weigh....just post a picture!! Lol.

We have the largest collection of designer chondros in the nation.......trust me on the mouse thing. ;)

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If your going to weigh a snake I think a bag is much more simple than your suggestion. Your suggestion is good until the snake decides it is leaving. My gtp is pretty good and will usually lay in the bowl without complaint. I don't think that being bagged is going to stress it any more than removing it on the perch and carrying it around. A bag is like a hide to a snake. They will usually crawl in by themselves.

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Originally Posted by tikigator

Putting up a thread for you in a minute :)

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I have a feeling I'm about to be very jealous!

I dunno we have over 100 chondros and none of them like to leave the perch. None of them. We never take them off the perch unless we are #1 soaking them due to difficult shed (which is a rarity, usually babies that have a difficult time shedding on their own) #2 breeding, in which case the males are crusing looking for a female and are more than willing to leave the enclosure. or #3 obviously shipping and when we ship and put them in a snake bag, I have to this date never had a chondro willingly go in a snake bag and not try desperately to get out. So....I dunno...you must have an odd ball :) I just give advise based on what I know. I do this everyday of my life....so I know what works for me and what is easy. None of our chondros use hides. Females will use nestboxes when gravid but aside from that they all perch. My carpets are another story.....lol

Maybe he is odd, he is mine. ;)

He really is a good boy and really doesn't give me any trouble as long as I don't surprise him.

I handle all my snakes and I'm lucky that none protest. I have a very friendly collection, well my new blood trio is settling down but are doing very good for their age.

I'm sure dealing with the volume you do weighing in your preferred manner is easier. I sadly only have one though so for me the bowl works just fine. I hope to have another over this next year or maybe a ETB. Fingers crossed. Feel free to send me one of those blue ones. You won't miss just one.:D

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Originally Posted by KMG

Feel free to send me one of those blue ones. You won't miss just one.:D

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We will have a few blueline clutches this year and next....just lemme know ;)

I'll try and get a photo tonight and post it. Maybe put something in the photo for scale. Puffers has gone from dull to bright green again, so I suspect she will shed very soon. I've noticed her eyes don't cloud up like my Ball Pythons do. Is that true all all the GTPs or am I just not seeing it?

Andy-:snake:

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Originally Posted by Andys-Python

I'll try and get a photo tonight and post it. Maybe put something in the photo for scale. Puffers has gone from dull to bright green again, so I suspect she will shed very soon. I've noticed her eyes don't cloud up like my Ball Pythons do. Is that true all all the GTPs or am I just not seeing it?

Andy-:snake:

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Correct....they go opaque but not blue like balls. Sometimes its easy to miss the begininng of a shed because it is so subtle with some chondros. Usually the tell all for good feeders is they will go off feed. Just make sure humidity is HIGH over the next few days until she sheds. I usually will dump out the wster bowl into bottom of enclosure or tub soaking the newspaper....you should see condensation on the glass of your enclosure or tub.

I wouldn't say SHOULD see condensation. I can keep over 80% humidity and in my snake room I never get condensation but have easy sheds. I don't know if my glass doors have something to do with it.

I wasn't able to get any photos last night, but when I got up this morning, Puffers was in the middle of her shed. So I took some photos and gathered some information:

http://www.orchidenterprise.com/Life..._5-2-13_01.jpg

I put a dollar bill in the photo to show size - 6 inches to the bill

http://www.orchidenterprise.com/Life..._5-2-13_02.jpg

The tallest perch is 16 inches. I misted her and her cages becaused it seemed dry and to help the shed come off better.

http://www.orchidenterprise.com/Life...5-2-13_03a.jpg

After the shed, it's time to get rid of the last meal.....

http://www.orchidenterprise.com/Life...5-2-13_04a.jpg

Time to get weighed......

http://www.orchidenterprise.com/Life...5-2-13_06a.jpg

1112 grams

http://www.orchidenterprise.com/Life...5-2-13_07a.jpg

Spend a little time with Daddy.

http://www.orchidenterprise.com/Life...5-2-13_01a.jpg

Probably not clear here in the pic, but the skin measures over 6 feet now. I tried NOT to stretch it in order to get a more accurate measurment.


Andy-

LOL well she's def a biak and a female but try closer to 3 YEARS! (edited I forgot you had had her for 6 months.....she could have been 18-24mths when you got her but def well over 2 yes now). She's a great looking girl!! And nice clean shed! Biaks can take the longest of any locale to change upto 3-4 yrs but she should be almost done if not completely done with her morph.

I forgot to mention the cage is 24 inches high and 18 inches deep and 18 inches wide.

Andy-:snake:

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LOL well she's def a biak and a female

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So.... She's definatly a female???? (Grinning from ear to ear) I was hoping she was!!!!!
curious.... What makes you say she's a female? Not that I don't believe you. I'm trying to learn here.

Andy

If she's not, that is one HUGE male. I would have to see a perch photo that is the easiest way for me to tell....not something I can explain, it's just once you see a hundred or so chondros you start to see the differences between males and females. How they act how they feed how they perch etc. Not to say its 100% but I'm usually at about 98% ;) and if you really want to know for sure simply look at her shed....see sperm plugs? If you do its a boy! And if you don't more than likely a girl ;)

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Originally Posted by tikigator

LOL well she's def a biak and a female but try closer to 3 YEARS! (edited I forgot you had had her for 6 months.....she could have been 18-24mths when you got her but def well over 2 yes now). She's a great looking girl!! And nice clean shed! Biaks can take the longest of any locale to change upto 3-4 yrs but she should be almost done if not completely done with her morph.

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Totally agree with this. I had thought you'd said she was about 18 months old now - not that you'd gotten her at about that. So, yes, she's definitely closer to 2 1/2 to 3 years old. Gorgeous animal. I would get her a bigger cage though. That is looking a bit cramped. :gj:

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Originally Posted by tikigator

If she's not, that is one HUGE male. I would have to see a perch photo that is the easiest way for me to tell....not something I can explain, it's just once you see a hundred or so chondros you start to see the differences between males and females. How they act how they feed how they perch etc. Not to say its 100% but I'm usually at about 98% ;) and if you really want to know for sure simply look at her shed....see sperm plugs? If you do its a boy! And if you don't more than likely a girl ;)

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Well, I know many experienced chondro people can get a feel for the sex of an animal by observing it, but I've never met one who can sex an animal by simply seeing a few pictures. But I'm not saying you aren't correct and maybe you can see some key factors that say "girl" to you. But I would never try to sex an animal from a picture. Forgive me, I am in no way criticizing or arguing with you. :gj: Btw, my male is every bit this large, if not larger....... ;)

Andy, do look at her shed for those sperm plugs, but do keep in mind, even the lack of plugs doesn't guarantee a female. My male sheds sperm plugs only about 70% of the time. She is a very pretty girl (Tikigator obviously has a lot of experience, so I'm assuming she really is a she, lol)!! :D

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

Well, I know many experienced chondro people can get a feel for the sex of an animal by observing it, but I've never met one who can sex an animal by simply seeing a few pictures. But I'm not saying you aren't correct and maybe you can see some key factors that say "girl" to you. But I would never try to sex an animal from a picture. Forgive me, I am in no way criticizing or arguing with you. :gj: Btw, my male is every bit this large, if not larger....... ;)

Andy, do look at her shed for those sperm plugs, but do keep in mind, even the lack of plugs doesn't guarantee a female. My male sheds sperm plugs only about 70% of the time. She is a very pretty girl (Tikigator obviously has a lot of experience, so I'm assuming she really is a she, lol)!! :D

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Thats why I said a perch pic would help :) it can be pretty obvious male vs female when an adult is perching....although like I said i cannot of course guarantee. I have seen some very big overweight males that totally screamed female and ended up shedding plugs. But a healthy adult male are usually able to be distinguished, again multiple perch photos help. Feeding and behavior is also a good way to tell but obviously cant really do that over the computer :)

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Originally Posted by tikigator

Thats why I said a perch pic would help :) it can be pretty obvious male vs female when an adult is perching....although like I said i cannot of course guarantee. I have seen some very big overweight males that totally screamed female and ended up shedding plugs. But a healthy adult male are usually able to be distinguished, again multiple perch photos help. Feeding and behavior is also a good way to tell but obviously cant really do that over the computer :)

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Of course. I understand! As I said, I wasn't arguing. I'm quite familiar with most of you with the chondro collective and/or the chondro coalition and have a healthy respect for you all. :gj:

Btw, just to be clear, my male, Hunter, is a proven 9 year old male. He is a PNG x OSHY and is fully 5 1/2 feet in length. Not too sure of his gram weight, but I would estimate him at about 1200gm +/-. He was purchased from Rocky Gravley as an adult a few years ago and we've kept his weight and condition perfect. He eats 1 large or jumbo mouse every 2 weeks and while he never refuses, lol, he is in no way overweight. I only bring this up to illustrate that there are some large males out there and size alone is not really an indicator of sex. But I know you weren't suggesting that it was - again, this is only an example for the OP's benefit.

Sorry to get a wee bit off topic......... :D

I REALY appreciate the discussion here. I'm learning a lot. I've started reading "The More Complete Chondro" book you suggested and can't wait to read/learn all I can. I've been away on business this past weekend and will be traveling this week, so I will check in as often as I can. When I return, I'll take a couple of 'perch' photos and post them. I would love seeing some of the color morphs pictured in the Chondro book. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where on the East Coast (Washington DC area) that would have some - maybe even some morphs for sale? If I have the time this week, I'll order a new cage for Puffers. If not, that will be my first order of business when I return. Thanks again and I look forward to more discussions here. Andy PS-My return(enter) key isn't working - sorry for the lack of line breaks here.

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Originally Posted by Andys-Python

I REALY appreciate the discussion here. I'm learning a lot. I've started reading "The More Complete Chondro" book you suggested and can't wait to read/learn all I can.

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GREAT! This is what it's all about! We love doing this together and sharing what we know to educate and help others enjoy chondros! The book is your best learning tool, so read away!

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Originally Posted by Andys-Python

When I return, I'll take a couple of 'perch' photos and post them. I would love seeing some of the color morphs pictured in the Chondro book. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where on the East Coast (Washington DC area) that would have some - maybe even some morphs for sale?

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Would love to see some perch pics of Puffers! We are actually located right around the corner in Maryland and have chondros for sale all the time :) We have everything from simple locale animals to designers (all lines) in all price ranges. If you have a facebook find us and you can see some of what we have going on. All depends on what you are looking for. :) Also, we are hosting the International Collective Arboreal Symposium here in Timoinium, MD in August. We will have some of the top breeders in the world coming to speak and display their collections. It is going to be an epic event that is definately worth coming to especially if you are local! We will also have special guests including THE Greg Maxwell, author of the book you are so much enjoying :) That's right, meet him in person! Here is the link:
http://www.arborealsymposium.com/

If you have any other questions or need anything at all please don't hesitate to ask! We love educating others and bringing them into our hobby, it's what we do together!

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we are hosting the International Collective Arboreal Symposium here in Timoinium, MD in August

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I was planning on going to this, but didn't realize it was a three-day event and not just a reptile expo like the ones in Harve de Grave MD and Manassas VA. I'll check my schedule and make every attempt to be there! I look forward to meeting you and other Chondro lovers! - Andy (return key still not working here - works on other programs - any ideas what is wrong??)

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Originally Posted by Andys-Python

I was planning on going to this, but didn't realize it was a three-day event and not just a reptile expo like the ones in Harve de Grave MD and Manassas VA. I'll check my schedule and make every attempt to be there! I look forward to meeting you and other Chondro lovers! - Andy (return key still not working here - works on other programs - any ideas what is wrong??)

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Oh no this is definately not just an ordinary expo. This is an educational symposium with speakers from around the globe, collection displays, and breeder gatherings. Yes there will be vendors....enclosure vendors, incubator vendors, as well as other dry goods, in addition to animals of course. Some of the big names that will be there include Greg Maxwell (author of the More Complete Chondro), Nick Mutton (author of The Complete Carpet), Christian Stewart (representing The Barn, largest chondro breeder in the nation), Marc Spataro will be bringing some amazing animals (Boelons pythons, darwins pythons, etc), and a few other celebrities (both human and scaley) that will be a great surprise :) Admission includes a t-shirt and lunch, and the event is hosted at hotel so room accomodations are available. It will be EPIC! :D