Here's a head scratcher!

Obviously a bit early to know anything for sure as this one is still in it's egg, pictures were taken today. Parents were bought as Visual albino Male and Het albino Female, in fact I picked up 3 het albinos at the same time, all came from/through the same breeder. The male has paired all 3 females this year, and we have had 3 clutches. First 2 clutches all hets, and standard looking het albinos. This clutch there is this one baby and 4 slightly weird looking normal/hets, though they are harder to see at this point as they are all still in the eggs.

Thoughts anyone? there have been many interesting suggestions made today, and neither male albino or female 'het' look to be anything other than what I bought them as. No sign of pastel, enchi, desert or OD in either of them. Weird huh, I've been scratching my head all day! :O It's actually brighter than the photographs have come out.

http://www.royaldraco.co.uk/FunkyBaby/TWO.jpg

http://www.royaldraco.co.uk/FunkyBaby/ONE.jpg

I couldn't even begin to guess. The odds gods sure did toss you a puzzle there! Absolutely breathtaking, though. I'll be interested to see how this thread progresses.

I think things are going to get interesting here trying to find out what is going on. I will post update photos one this and the others are out of their eggs, and then update after first sheds etc :)

WOW I love how bright it looks! Het or not either way gorgeous looking babies!!! :D:gj:

Thanks :) there is just the one in this clutch, may have to pair the same parents next year, unless this is a little male, then he may meet mum next year and see what happens :)

ooohhh,,now THATS interesting! pics after it comes outta the egg! ...sooo exciting when stuff like that happens :D

That's crazy!

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

ooohhh,,now THATS interesting! pics after it comes outta the egg! ...sooo exciting when stuff like that happens :D

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I will update once they are all out so you can see all of it :)

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Originally Posted by SnowShredder

That's crazy!

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Tell me about it, I thought I was seeing things! :confusd:

I might be reaching, but that last one looks clown-ish! :O

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

I might be reaching, but that last one looks clown-ish! :O

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Both pictures are of the same baby, it's just that you can kind of see it's head in the one and it's belly/sides in the other. And no your not reaching I saw the same thing you did, though to the best of my knowledge there is no way it can be a clown. My first though was orange dream, then I saw what looked clown, but from the parents makes no sense at all! it's very confusing! :O

I have no stinkin clue what that it is but man, it is gorgeous! I must know what that is, please do let us know ASAP!

I instantly thought clown as well when looking at the second picture. Perhaps both parents are het clown. Either way, really neat.

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Clear belly, bright colors and a really cool looking pattern. I have no idea what it is based on your pairing, but that's a smokin' hot snake, whatever it is. Can't wait to see updated pics out of the egg and after shed...

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

I might be reaching, but that last one looks clown-ish! :O

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x2

That baby needs to quit clowning around and get out of the egg already! :D

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Originally Posted by ballpythonluvr

I have no stinkin clue what that it is but man, it is gorgeous! I must know what that is, please do let us know ASAP!

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If I could work out what is was I would tell you! lol I think this is going to require breeding out to see what is going on, so it could be a few years before we know for sure! lol

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I instantly thought clown as well when looking at the second picture. Perhaps both parents are het clown. Either way, really neat.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Could be, but that still doesn't explaint he colour, as it should then be an albino clown, so NO BLACK, my head is dead! lol

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

Clear belly, bright colors and a really cool looking pattern. I have no idea what it is based on your pairing, but that's a smokin' hot snake, whatever it is. Can't wait to see updated pics out of the egg and after shed...

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It is smokin, and the pictures are a little darker than they should be. I feel rather honoured lol

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

x2

That baby needs to quit clowning around and get out of the egg already! :D

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I'm with you all the way! :P

I agree the second picture does look similar to clown, the first absolutely doesn't not, soooo definitely thinking it's something else lol

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Very exciting though! Can't wait to see updated pics, whatever it is, it looks good! :)

Boy, where to start guessing? Can't wait to see it out of the egg!

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Originally Posted by STjepkes

I agree the second picture does look similar to clown, the first absolutely doesn't not, soooo definitely thinking it's something else lol

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Very exciting though! Can't wait to see updated pics, whatever it is, it looks good! :)

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Thanks. I know it's a hard one to call, even out of the egg I'm not sure it will make it any clearer genetically! lol My only hope is that it improves with age and doesn't get 'dirty' looking :)

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

Boy, where to start guessing? Can't wait to see it out of the egg!

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Tell me about it, I've been trying to guess and trawling the internet all day, and I'm still clueless! lol :)

Before I read the description I went straight to clown, but now?
Post pics of the parents, not that it'll help but it'll keep us distracted until the little bugger pops all the way out. :D
I do hope it's a boy though, just so you can plug him into your breeding program quicker.
OOH hey, I just 100 posts, lol.

Whatever it is, it looks amazing! Very confusing and yet exciting! Congrats on the beautiful baby!

how closely related are the parents? what is the source for the parents, are they from the same breeder? Maybe even from the same clutch?

only explanation is that you did not breed distantly related albino to het albino, but that albino and het albino are both very closely related, siblings or mother/son. then its enough if only one grandparent is possible het for something, because inbreeding does the rest: the parents share grandparents in some weird way.

you might be able to bring out more of these, with inbreeding. Im no fan of this. Especially not if this unexpected hit is already the result of inbreeding.

Its not unlikely to be a clown, since it is a pattern morph, and since it would otherwise be visible in the parents it has to be a recessive pattern morph. There are not many recessive pattern morphs that look remotely like this. But i also would not yet exclude the possibility that you just hit a very, very reduced normal.

If you hit a clown by doing inbreeding, you should buy a different unrelated clown to breed it, or sell it. If it is now impacted by inbreeding, it would be a good idea to make sure it is being bred to unrelated BPs next generation. Inbreeding is controversial, i say avoid it if possible, but i can tolerate breeders that do it more often than i would consider necessary. I would go to lengths to avoid inbreeding and even if other breeders do inbreeding i can still easily avoid it in my collection, so i say live and let live. But my advice is: unless working on double recessives, it can and should be avoided. And even when working on a double recessive project, as soon as you hit the first visuals, you can and should avoid inbreeding from that point on.


Anyway, the clearest and best photos can be made right after the 1st shed, i am very much looking forward to that, so keep us updated. Also, data on parents please, are the parents related or not?

Wow that is a sweet lookin snake! I couldnt begin to ponder what other possibilities it could be but I am definitely gonna keep an eye on this thread! Cant wait to see it outta the egg! I do think pics of the parents would be nice though. If you say the male is a visual albino couldnt it be possible he is hiding some traits? I would love to see the daddy!

Commenting to subscribe, can't wait til it's out!

the problem is that all the codom pattern morphs, like spider or pinstripe or even stuff like calico or mojave or enchi, just dont hide in an albino. They are visible. You get white instead of black/grey and yellow instead of brown, but patterns do show in albinos.

Yes pictures of the parents would help! I assume its just a normal looking albino and a normal looking het albino, but maybe the pictures reveal something more, like an albino spider, or if both have very reduced patterns. But should both parents look quite normal, my bet would still be on a lucky clown hit from unlabeled possible hets. Or, worst case.... just an incubation issue maybe?

Whatever it is, it's absolutely stunning! :bow: Can't wait to see it out of the egg!

Suscribed to this thread. That baby is a stunner I cant wait to see updates on it.

1.0 Ball Pythons(Twizzler)
1.0 Cat (Loki)

I can see why one would guess clown, but based on the first picture, you can clearly see that the eye stripe is straight. Most clowns have janked up eye stripes. It's normally one of the first things I show someone who is new to clowns since the rest of the pattern can get quite confusing to someone new =p. The head pattern and eye stripe is definitely not clown :gj:.

I do think it's a sweet looking snake though! I'm guessing perhaps incubation issue, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility that it was inbreeding-related since I haven't seen much evidence of this kind of thing happening in snakes. I know people SAY that inbreeding is bad, but nobody ever posts pictures displaying issues directly caused by inbreeding.....

Looks like a nice yellow banded snake :gj:. If it's a female, find yourself an enchi het albino male please :please:.... That would be a great way to improve the combo :gj:

been subscribed since the second comment, this little bugger needs to come out already!

I too am anxious lets see this beast. What about pics of the parents it almost looks like a orange dream or enchi. Or desert enchi lol....anyone's guess

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Originally Posted by h00blah

I know people SAY that inbreeding is bad, but nobody ever posts pictures displaying issues directly caused by inbreeding.....

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Basically, in all sexually reproducing animals, which includes almost all multi-cellular animals, it causes problems.

Its the same for all life: One vital gene may be located on one spot in one chromosome. You have it all two times, from mom and dad. If one is broken, you are still healthy, if both copies are broken, if its a vital gene, you are sick or even died as an embryo.

We know most about humans, human recessive conditions are rare when people avoid inbreeding, and get extremely amplified when people do inbreed:

• Cystic fibrosis
• PKAN/NBIA
• Tay-Sachs disease
• Chronic granulomatous disease
• Thalassemia
• Bloom's Syndrome
• Alpha 1-antitrypsin deficiency
• Haemochromatosis types 1-3
• Wilson's disease
• Most types of Mucopolysaccharidosis
• Most Glycogen storage diseases
• Homocystinuria
• Congenital adrenal hyperplasia
• Dubin-Johnson syndrome
• Fanconi anemia
• Galactosemia
• Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency
• Phenylketonuria
• Albinism
• Rotor syndrome
• Familial Mediterranean fever
• Pendred syndrome
• Certain forms of Spinal muscular atrophy
• Xeroderma pigmentosum
• Friedrich's ataxia

most of these are NOT FUN. I exclude plants and fungus and bacteria because they are weird and they dont suffer when they hit a recessive gene. But all multicellular animal life runs into problems if there is too much inbreeding. You have 4 grandparents, and if you want children you should do it with someone that has 4 DIFFERENT grandparents. In the overall genome, chances for hitting a recessive genetic disease are low, but if ancestry between you and your mate is to a point identical, the odds go crazy. And even if you dont hit a disease, offspring is likely to be still impacted with developmental problems and/or stupidity. Thats how it is for the most-studied species: Humans.

In Pets, for pedigree breeding, inbreeding is a shortcut. Sometimes a REQUIRED shortcut, sometimes its just necesary. But the risks still exist. Reptiles appear to be quite resilient when it comes to inbreeding, but still, there is a general trend: If you inbreed, health goes down, fertility goes down, recessive diseases can pop up, but you can reset the process by outbreeding to unrelated individuals.

Entire species overextend, like for example pedigree dog breeding. These darn Ridgebacks for example, the ridgeback is a problematic recessive genetic disease, and it causes suffering and requires treatment. Still, dog breeders produce the breed and it is a popular breed, and sometimes ridgeless ridgebacks are born. They are perfectly fine dogs, with two differences:
1.: They do not and will never suffer from the genetic issue haunting ridgebacks. They make the perfect pet.
2.: They do not have the ridge on the back, its missing.
Now what dog breeders do is to cull them and to further inbreed. Offering them for sale would hurt their reputation. Show quality german shepherds cannot walk properly, its an inbred deteriorated genetic disaster. And these breeders are reckless, and they say things like "If its a boy, its gonna visit its mom later". Just like the original poster did.

Its a shortcut, BUT THERE IS A PRICE, AND DO NOT DENY IT.

end of rant.

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Originally Posted by h00blah

I do think it's a sweet looking snake though! I'm guessing perhaps incubation issue, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility that it was inbreeding-related since I haven't seen much evidence of this kind of thing happening in snakes. I know people SAY that inbreeding is bad, but nobody ever posts pictures displaying issues directly caused by inbreeding.....

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I kept editing this paragraph when I wrote my response, but there is some missing punctuation there lol. I specifically said I'm not ruling out the possibility that inbreeding was related. Then there was supposed to be a period to end that statement... But yeah, I haven't seen too much evidence of inbreeding causing issues in snakes.

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

Reptiles appear to be quite resilient when it comes to inbreeding, but still, there is a general trend: If you inbreed, health goes down, fertility goes down, recessive diseases can pop up, but you can reset the process by outbreeding to unrelated individuals.

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They DO appear to be resilient, which is my point. There is tons of evidence that inbreeding is bad for say humans and other mammals, but I haven't really seen enough evidence that it affects reptiles in a terrible way. Some effects that have been rumored are kinks, facial deformities, and fertility issues. I see people inbreed snakes, they hatch healthy looking snakes, and nothing bad happens.. Then I see posts where people SAY that inbreeding is bad for the snakes. Show me proof, or do it yourself and post the results.

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

Its a shortcut, BUT THERE IS A PRICE, AND DO NOT DENY IT.

end of rant.

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I don't deny that inbreeding is bad. I think inbreeding reptiles (ball pythons specificall) will eventually cause negative side-effects, but I have no clue how many generations it will take in order for them to occur. Brian gundy has been line breeding his pieds to produce striped pieds. His goldblush mojave is a result of line breeding to produce that gorgeous blushing on the sides of his mojaves. He's STILL line breeding to this day to improve his mojaves. So far, he hasn't posted any negative impacts on his animals. I'll contact him to specifically ask though. Could be interesting :gj:.

I have no clue of the morph they are but those are some beautiful babies.

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

Commenting to subscribe, can't wait til it's out!

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Me too!


Http://www.BCBallPythons.com
Http://www.facebook.com/bcballpythons

We need more pics! At least give us pics of the parents! :taz:

Such an interesting looking little one you have there. Congrats!

I'd love to see the parents. I also love to see the baby when it's out. What ever it is. It is amazing


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That looks amazing! can't wait to see it out:gj::gj:

That is really neat....How many days into incubation are they? You say the other babies from this clutch look weird as well...any pics of these? Are you sure there was no incubation stress on this clutch? The pattern is funky but it really looks like it has not fully colored up yet.

I am very interested to see what happens as it emerges and has its first shed. Fingers crossed you hit something special. Good Luck

If I had to guess I'd say that it's early in the incubation and one of a couple things its either

• the CO2 exchange with the egg is causing some funny pigment in the egg that will settle down after it hatches
• The animal is displaying some tweak due to the Het playing with the gene's
• its deformed and that's whats causing the amazing color
• There's some milk man in that baby (retained sperm)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

In Pets, for pedigree breeding, inbreeding is a shortcut. Sometimes a REQUIRED shortcut, sometimes its just necesary. But the risks still exist. Reptiles appear to be quite resilient when it comes to inbreeding, but still, there is a general trend: If you inbreed, health goes down, fertility goes down, recessive diseases can pop up, but you can reset the process by outbreeding to unrelated individuals.

Entire species overextend, like for example pedigree dog breeding. These darn Ridgebacks for example, the ridgeback is a problematic recessive genetic disease, and it causes suffering and requires treatment. Still, dog breeders produce the breed and it is a popular breed, and sometimes ridgeless ridgebacks are born. They are perfectly fine dogs, with two differences:
1.: They do not and will never suffer from the genetic issue haunting ridgebacks. They make the perfect pet.
2.: They do not have the ridge on the back, its missing.
Now what dog breeders do is to cull them and to further inbreed. Offering them for sale would hurt their reputation. Show quality german shepherds cannot walk properly, its an inbred deteriorated genetic disaster. And these breeders are reckless, and they say things like "If its a boy, its gonna visit its mom later". Just like the original poster did.

Its a shortcut, BUT THERE IS A PRICE, AND DO NOT DENY IT.

end of rant.

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I'm wondering if you wikied your entire post. It certainly looks like it.
While, you're not totally incorrect, you're not completely right either.

Bp morphs to Purebred dogs is apples to oranges. People are purposely selecting FOR those bad deleterious traits in dogs. It's not occurring randomly. (And for your information, you cannot breed son to mother in dog breeding. It is father to daughter. My boyfriend's mother breeds AKC champs. This is apparently part of "dog breeding ethics" because in the wild, many daughters would not leave the parent group or territory and breed with a father, compared to the son who does leave the group. )

But anyway.
Some morphs that have heritable issues, such as the spider wobble, don't get selected against and the reason why they're still here. (Same as those disastrous dog breeds)
However, breeders will always cull a deformed/kinked/fail to thrive snake. Many dog breeders do not cull their bad stock, which is why there are so many trainwreck dogs out there (ghetto backyard bred American bullys anyone?).

And BP inbreeding occurs often in the wild. Do you think snakes migrate to other locations to breed? No. They are a non-migratory species. Most reptiles are, which is why they are "so resilient to inbreeding". They're in the same general territory their entire lives and breeding with whatever snake around, aka most likely a close relative. The only differences is that the unfit are selected and taken out of the population. I'm not saying inbreeding is good or bad, it just makes the population have a higher homozygosity. Also why there are locale specific phenotypes. Sure, it can increase negative recessive genes. But it can also increase the positive. It just depends on the individual.
Think geographically and reproductively isolated species or island population dynamics.
Sometimes it negatively impacts populations (cheetahs), while sometimes it has no effect and even sometimes is positive (elephant seals or Humans in Iceland).
By being more homozygous, you are enhancing a population to be more fixated and having the same alleles. Bad or good.

I'm all in favor for outbreeding, don't get me wrong.
But to just say 'inbreeding *is* bad and health and wellness *always* go down' bla bla bla is a poor statement... There can be positive homozygousity in a species.

Firstly, let me start by saying thanks to everyone for your interest, and for making this thread and interesting read :)

Now I will try and cover as many answers to the questions as I can, if I miss anything give me a kick ;)

Lineage of the parents: All 4 animals the 3 female hets and the male visual albino were purchased from John Berry in 2008, the females are all 2007's and the male is a 2008, so none had been previously bred. After speaking to John a few days ago as we had had no visual albinos at all fromt he first two 'het' female, he thinks the females were brought in from BHB, and is trying to confirm more info with Brian. I believe the male was produce by John himself. None of the 4 animals in question look to be anything other than what they were purchased as, I have seen other 'hets' bleed through, though I'm seeing nothing extraordinary in any of these, though the only pair in question seriously at the moment are the parents of this single baby. We suspect the first 2 'het' females now could well not be hets, and they were purchased as full hets, not possibles.

The only male that has ever been with this female is the visual albino, she has never been with a co-dom or dom male, or any other recessive for obvious reasons.

The incubation temp in most of the incubator is sitting at 89f, though these have been incubated at the top of the incubator where it is a little cooler. They are currently on day 76, though I had considered the possibility that this baby had coloured up yet, the rest of the clutch are the colour I would expect for hets/normals, and this baby is getting more orange each day. They are still in the eggs this morning and I am leaving them be apart from venting the tub once a day to allow for oxygen exchange and checking humidity, which is my standard practice in the last few weeks of incubation when they need more oxygen.

I will see if I can get a photo of dad, though he looks noting unusual, mum is currently in shed and looking awful, so that will have to wait.

Hope I have covered everything, give me a kick if I missed any vital information. ;)

I can't wait to see them out of the eggs. Then post shed shots too. They are cool. The really clean belly of the one on top does make me scratch my head.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

I can't wait to see them out of the eggs. Then post shed shots too. They are cool. The really clean belly of the one on top does make me scratch my head.

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I will continue to do update photos right through it's life, as long as it does well. Both pictures are of the same baby, though from different angles to show it's sides and belly and it's head kind of. Just off to photograph dad now ;)

This is dad, just your standard looking albino male.

http://www.royaldraco.co.uk/FunkyBaby/Albino.jpg

Posting to subscribe. Very interesting situation your in, good luck!

Thank you, I will keep everyone posted with news when it happens. I hate this waiting game! lol In the meantime I'm off to entertain myself cleaning out and changing the water in all my adults, that should burn another few hours up! :)

Any idea what the temperatures were at the top of your incubator? I see they are on day 76 and still in the egg so I take it we are looking at temps in the low 80's. Did you happen to cut prior to the first pip or did a baby pip then you cut all eggs?

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Originally Posted by joebad976

Any idea what the temperatures were at the top of your incubator? I see they are on day 76 and still in the egg so I take it we are looking at temps in the low 80's. Did you happen to cut prior to the first pip or did a baby pip then you cut all eggs?

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I will be able to confirm for sure later on today what the temperatures are at the top of the incubator as I have today installed some extra old school thermometers, the ones with the fluid in them, use to be mercury, as they are more accurate, I'm just waiting for it to settle so I can peer through the door. I did cut prior to the first pip, as they were over due and I wanted to make sure all was well, but the eggs had dimpled and softened. I know this baby is still colouring up, but as it's colouring up it's getting more orange, rather than going brown. The other babies in there seem to be the kind of general colour I would expect.

I have been browsing this thread and I am really disappointed I cant see the pictures.

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Originally Posted by sissysnakes

I have been browsing this thread and I am really disappointed I cant see the pictures.

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That's odd! If you copy and paste this into your browser you should be able to see them.

http://www.royaldraco.co.uk/FunkyBaby/TWO.jpg

http://www.royaldraco.co.uk/FunkyBaby/ONE.jpg

http://www.royaldraco.co.uk/FunkyBaby/Albino.jpg

:)

Subscribed. I can't wait to see this bad boy out of the egg.