need some help with my temps

My BP is about 5 1/2 years old. She's been doing really well, we've had her since she was about 8-10 weeks old. Problem is she hasn't eaten since late December 2013, almost 4 months. Last winter (2011-2012) she didn't eat for about 3 months and was fine. Anyway she was out and about so I thought perhaps I would try to feed her. Wouldn't touch the mice, her regular diet. She also appeared to have something around her vents. Beginning of March I brought her to the vet. She was rather dull, but not close to a shed and she just didn't look right. Turns out she was dehydrated and was a bit red in the mouth. The vet thought we should soak her, see if we could get her to shed and then perhaps she would start eating. Right about this time we moved her from a 20 gal to 50 gal tank. We set up a hot side and cool side put in the water dish, the log. The temp gauges, etc. a heat pad. We soaked her for about 5 days and she finally went into a shed. Very clean shed, almost a solid piece, the eye caps she had finally came off. I thought for sure she would eat. Wouldn't touch the food. I notice the temp on top of the pad is hot, it can get up to 111. We set it up to go on and off, but it doesn't stay at a consistent temp. It's also over several layers of substrate and it's not the ambient temp of the tank. That runs a bit cool.

She's active at night, been hanging out on the cool side of the tank, but still won't eat when I take her out to her feed box. I tried a thawed frozen rat, more live mice, nothing. I'm trying to figure out why she isn't eating. I'm almost ready to take her back to the vet. I don't want to force feed her, I think it might be a temperature issue, but I can't quite figure it out. I've gotten a thermostat to put on the heat pad in the hopes that it will level out that temp, but do I need to make it a constant ambient temperature.

She looks good, she's alert, but I'm kind of concerned since she hasn't eaten since December. Oh, she also hasn't dropped a lot of weight, but as I said I need some advice. Thanks.

final4kc

Well first thing you need to do is get that thermostat set uo and get that pad regulated. 111 degrees is way too hot, which is why shes hanging out on the cool side. Id worry about proper temps before feeding at her age 5, 6, 7, 8 months off feed isnt going to hurt. On the other hand those temos being so far off will definitely do damage. You said ambient is kind of cool. What's kinda cool? Get your hot spot to a constant 88-92 and your ambient at approx 80.

I see you have wasted the time of being a member of such a great info filled forum.

First check out the caresheet. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ius)-Caresheet

Next I would upload a picture of the tank with as much detail as possible. Tell us what sources of heat you are using and how you have them set up. You say you may have a temp problem but didn't state any known tank temps. Its really hard for us to help you with the little you included.

I'm going to be general and take some guesses at what I think you are using in your setup.

Your temps need to stay as steady as possible. The air temp in the whole tank should be between 78-84, air temp is also referred to as ambient temp. Next you need to provide a hotspot of 88-91 with a under tank heater (uth). The uth needs to be hooked up to a thermostat (tstat) to regulate it so you do not burn your snake. You should have a thermometer to track your cage ambient temp.

The uth needs to have a very thin layer of substrate over it. Usually 1/4 inch is good. You need to know the actual temp of the cage floor over the uth. The tstat may need to be set above the target temp but it should not be but a few degrees more. Having a think layer of substrate over the uth does not allow the heat to reach the snake and then becomes useless. The reason you want to know the actual cage floor temp is in the event your snake moves the substrate and lays directly on the bottom you will not be dealing with a burned snake. The best way to monitor this is with a IR temp gun but a probe thermometer can work too.

Your trip to the vet and dealing with a dehydrated snake tells me your humidity is to low for long periods of time. You should be misting as often as necessary to keep your humidity between 40-60 while not in shed and 60-70 while in shed. Being that you need to track your temps and humidity many of us use a gauge that does both. This is it on Amazon but Walmart has them too http://www.amazon.com/Chaney-Instrum...words=accurite . Their are a few other methods of raising your humidity but we can help you with those when we know more about your setup.

The fasting could be from a number of things and the only way to know for sure is to get your snakes tank near perfect to narrow it down. It could be cold temp, time of year, security issue, stress, etc.

First feeding in a different container is not needed and not desired. All this does is stress the snake out by taking it away from its home. Feeding in is cage will not make it aggressive and you actually raise the odds of getting bit by moving a snake while in feed mode.

Next is security. If you moved it to a new large tank and it has large open areas try to clutter it up. Add plants, driftwood, branches, etc to give the snake cover and concealment. That will make it feel secure and reduce stress and make it more prone to eat.

Also going with security is its hide. The half log hides do not actually make a bp feel secure and a better choice would be this.
http://www.reptilebasics.com/hide-boxes
Their hide needs to be snug and have one door.

Now to help with getting your temps right we need the information on what your using and what you have available.

You have many issues but it is very possible to get it right. Help us help you.

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Originally Posted by KMG

I see you have wasted the time of being a member of such a great info filled forum.

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^Ouch. :(
Some people may just want a direct answer rather than sifting through a ton of threads.
We are all different. No harm in that.

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Originally Posted by Southern_Breeder

^Ouch. :(
Some people may just want a direct answer rather than sifting through a ton of threads.
We are all different. No harm in that.

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Wasn't trying to be mean. Just making the observation the op has been a member a long time but has not utilized it.

To get a direct answer you have to ask the question. Reading the caresheet alone could fix some of these issues.

Its like trying to bake a cake but not knowing how, even though you own the cookbook. All you have to do is use the book you have but instead you struggle trying to do it alone.

I appreciate the input. To be honest my daughter and I have just not had any problems until she left for college last fall, she could not bring Bob with her. So it is on me, and while she had been maintaining the tank and the snake I have just not been an active snake tender. Unfortunately when we switched tanks we switched the uth and that seems to be where a lot of the problem's lie, that and the fact I have not been on the forum for quite a while. I decided to come here and try to resolve the problem and now I'm relearning how to take care of an adult BP.

I did get two different thermostats and set one up last night and will finish today. Her hides are low box type enclosures with only one entrance. The substrate on the cool end, in the hide, is moistened coconut fiber, in the warm end it's about 1/4 or so of a terrarium mat and some aspen. in the middle of the cage is a large water dish and the climbing log.

I'll take a picture and post it. I really appreciate any input I can get. I'm struggling to get this right.

Thanks again.

Short answer is get temps and humidity right then worry about feeding. My 2 year old snake hasnt eaten since Oct and folks here keep telling me not to worry yet.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

Pictures always make it easier for us to get a better idea of what will help you. We also need to know what your temps are. If you are not currently monitoring them it would be very helpful if you could get a thermometer so we can start getting them right.

Many of us use these. They can be found at Walmart. http://www.amazon.com/Chaney-Instrum...words=accurite

We need:

Room temp
Cool side air temp
Warm side air temp
Hotspot surface temp (both below and above the substrate if possible)

What I try to keep is a warm spot of 90 with a overall cage temp of 80.

thanks so much. The ambient temp on the cool side runs about 72-78, not sure about the warm side. I just ordered the digital thermometer. I placed the Hydrofarm thermostat sensor on the uth and set it at 82. The humidity is between 60-70 in the middle of the tank. I need to reconfigure the way I have everything plugged in, I have a heavy duty cord with three plugs on it I need to set up.

I really appreciate the help. I'll be back. Enjoy your day.

kc

I work nights so I'm about to enjoy some sleep. Lol.

We need to boost your air temps a bit. You really don't want them to ever fall below 75. If you have a screen top you can cover most of it with foil tape, foil, or cardboard wrapped in foil. Those are just some options, other materials can work. You need to leave a window for any heat lamp or alittle on each end open for air flow.

The tstat needs to be bumped up some. You loose heat as it works to the surface so almost always the tstat will be a few degrees warmer than your hotspot goal. Also the best place to mount the tstat sensor probe is on top of the uth itself. This way it is out of the cage and can not be moved by the snake which will cause the tstat to overheat the hotspot. My tstat is set to 98 and gives me a 90 hotspot. Don't set yours to 98 just yet, I'm just giving you an example.

I would start at 88 and give a couple hours to heat up and then check it. If it is not on the target adjust the tstat and repeat this until you have your correct hotspot. Just remember the uth can take a while to heat up and stabilize so be patient.

^thats what the forum should be about, help and feedback. i can say right now i would have a dead bp if it wasnt for this site,

I agree with what's been said so far about getting the temps right. I can almost guarantee you will have to set the tstat higher than 82F (unless it's calibrated wrong). Covering the top of the tank is a great idea, also (assuming it's screen). The only other thing I will add is that just the stress of moving to a bigger enclosure is enough to put many BPs off feed. Keep in mind that they live underground in termite mounds in the wild. They really prefer small, dark spaces, which is why they tend to do so well in racks. In addition to fixing the temps, you may want to consider covering at least 3 sides of the tank with something to black them out or covering the whole thing with a blanket. That can be a big help. Also, how/when are you offering food? I'd recommend feeding at night with the lights out, and feeding in the enclosure if you are not doing that already.

A 50g tank is probably a bit big even for an adult. She may be intimidated by the open space. And I agree about keeping your temps stable. That's important. Now how bout LIVE rats? Have your tried a small live rat? Pre-killed? How bout an ASF? Theres lots of different choices available before you forcefeed. That's should be your last option after you've exhausted all other choices. I do have a question, however. Do you weigh your snake? A 5 year old BP should be in a certain weight range(barring issues of course). Keeping a weight record on your snake will let you know if it is losing a lot of weight or just a little. Plus, it will give you an idea of what weight range is normal for that individual. IMO, that kind of data is important.

I had no clue, obviously, about putting the foil on, I do have a screen top, and will foil it over this evening. Great information, I'll throw a picture up as well. Thanks so much!

I thought 50 gal was a bit big, but we have hides at either end, cool and hot (too hot before earlier this morning). Not a lot of open space. There's a good size water dish, and wood. She's about the length of the tank, perhaps a bit shorter. Thanks for your help.

kc

I'm going to work on the tank today, have the new digital thermometer on the way, should have it Friday. I'll cover the back and the side of the tank, and will definitely be putting foil on top. I'm so grateful for all the ideas. I've been so worried as I knew the temps were off, but I just did not know how best to fix it.

:)

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

I agree with what's been said so far about getting the temps right. I can almost guarantee you will have to set the tstat higher than 82F (unless it's calibrated wrong). Covering the top of the tank is a great idea, also (assuming it's screen). The only other thing I will add is that just the stress of moving to a bigger enclosure is enough to put many BPs off feed. Keep in mind that they live underground in termite mounds in the wild. They really prefer small, dark spaces, which is why they tend to do so well in racks. In addition to fixing the temps, you may want to consider covering at least 3 sides of the tank with something to black them out or covering the whole thing with a blanket. That can be a big help. Also, how/when are you offering food? I'd recommend feeding at night with the lights out, and feeding in the enclosure if you are not doing that already.

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So no feed box? I feed her live food and back when we first got her it was generally recommended that we always use a feed box. It would be easier to feed her in her tank, my concern at this point is that I'll have a live mouse running around in her tank and if she doesn't go for the mouse I'll have to chase the critter down, which might be more dramatic for her in the long run. Don't want to leave live food in the tank. I do know a few things. LOL.

I never recommend feeding outside the tank. BPs can be so fussy about eating as it is. There are plenty who will not eat if you move them.

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Originally Posted by final4kc

So no feed box? I feed her live food and back when we first got her it was generally recommended that we always use a feed box. It would be easier to feed her in her tank, my concern at this point is that I'll have a live mouse running around in her tank and if she doesn't go for the mouse I'll have to chase the critter down, which might be more dramatic for her in the long run. Don't want to leave live food in the tank. I do know a few things. LOL.

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I feed live, and unless my girl is super hungry she's not an aggressive eater. With clean hands I remove the empty hide and the center clutter. I then lay a (1) rat filled critter carrier on it's side and gently let the rat out. If she does't rush out I remove the other hide. I monitor but from a few feet away with no lights on inside the cage and let the shy girl do her thing. If I have a leftover situation I use my critter carrier and a "stick" to guide and collect the "uneaten portion" to safety, but I use one of the hides as a block or blind between the snake, myself, and the rat. This works way better than fishing about for a fast moving leftover rodent.

Temps first, always.

Great info. Thanks. Put my foil in place. Now let me just check, you're saying to place the tstat sensor on the heating pad, under the tank? Set it on 88 and go from there? I'm just double checking. I'll do that tonight, mist down my coconut fiber, the humidity is a bit low, put the light on and the foil in place.

How long do you think I should wait to try to feed her after I finally get this right? Also, I noticed a few of the other comments on the thread mentioned to feed her in her cage. Since we first got her she has always used a feed box. Is this how you feed your snakes? Back when we first got her most of the info I found was to use the feed box. I have some concerns that if she doesn't eat the mouse that I might disturb her more by trying to get the mouse out.

Thank you again for all your help. I really appreciate it.

kc

Excellent, I would prefer that I don't have to take her out. Thank you so much! I appreciate it. Will work on my temps, then give her a bit of time and then use this method. Thanks again. I'm so relieved - I should have come back here months ago!

kc

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

A 50g tank is probably a bit big even for an adult. She may be intimidated by the open space. And I agree about keeping your temps stable. That's important. Now how bout LIVE rats? Have your tried a small live rat? Pre-killed? How bout an ASF? Theres lots of different choices available before you forcefeed. That's should be your last option after you've exhausted all other choices. I do have a question, however. Do you weigh your snake? A 5 year old BP should be in a certain weight range(barring issues of course). Keeping a weight record on your snake will let you know if it is losing a lot of weight or just a little. Plus, it will give you an idea of what weight range is normal for that individual. IMO, that kind of data is important.

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She has always had mice. She was eating three small mice every 10 days or so. I have tried pre-killed rats, but she has passed. But I haven't since all this started. I'm not sure live rats are an option for several reasons. First, the teeth. I would hate to see her get bit, the second, well, I used to have pet rats, I'm not to the point quite yet that I can do that to a baby rat. I sometimes have trouble with the mice. Hence my daughter taking care of her snake.

We have weighed her, I have a running weight starting I believe in February, so I have a baseline. What is an ASF? I won't forcefeed her. Not since I've gotten so much info. I feel a lot better about getting things stabilized. I think the vet said that if she won't eat she can give her a shot, but she didn't want to do that, and after hearing how long they can go I'll wait. Thanks.

kc

Once you get the temps dialed in, my recommendation would be to black out/cover up her tank for a few days and leave her completely alone during that period. Then offer her a live mouse (since that was her usual prey) in her tub, at night, in the dark. I would just put the mouse in, cover the tank and come back in 15 min. That has been my go to method for getting picky eaters to eat for years.

If you want to try a rat, you don't want to use a baby. You'll want a small rat (so just past weaned). My experience has been that small rats are actually less likely to bite than adult mice (I am not a fan of mice). An ASF is an African Soft Furred Rat. They are smaller than regular rats, but sometimes they are hard to come by. BPs seem to like them, though.