Possible NEW dark morph!

A friend of mine showed me this male that was imported last July.

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...psf8085f1b.jpg

He is just about to shed, so I will get better pictures next week, but in the meantime....

....he has a clear white belly and seems to have a bit of the cinnamon-style nose, but is certainly interesting. Maybe a super form? Maybe a dark Cinny? Maybe a Cinny crossed with something else?

What do you all think?

I think I needs him :D Very gorgeous!

Let him shed then post some more pics. I'll reserve my opinion til then.

He looks really promising ,hope he proves out! I look foward to updates!

Wow! I love that guy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Let him shed then post some more pics. I'll reserve my opinion til then.

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This ^^

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

This ^^

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Same, but I will make a statement right now too... Honestly, this might be too bold for me to say, but i think it looks like a darker form of the sunset ball python that BHB has... I know I'm probably crazy, but the pattern looks similar, just the color is obviously darker. Looking forward to seeing more pics after the shed! Keep us posted.

Calder

Cinny X Genetic black back maybe? Or something new altogether.

Did he breed any females this winter?

A super dark ball would be sweet.. Id be into it!

I'm interested in the post shed photos. From what I can see through the blue it is a good looking snake.

Looks similar to the voodoo ball. I've seen a few look like this come in from Africa over the years and nothing has come of them yet genetically.

However, I would still breed this one, as it looks a little different than the others I've seen. Typically the super melanistic balls that haven't proven have smaller heads, sometimes buggy eyes, small deformities, etc. This looks promising from what I see. Can you show us a belly pic?

Good luck regardless! I'd love to see something like that prove out!

Sable in Deep Shed Or Dark Granite in Deep Shed... My bey is on Sable...

He hasn't bred yet. He eats well though and will be ready next season. He is for sale and I'm trying to decide if he's worth the investment.....I'm just not 100% sold yet.

Here are a few more pictures sent to me by the breeder while the snake is NOT IN SHED. I'll get better quality/brighter pictures next week.

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps1dc490cd.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps99e212d7.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps8919cd04.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps15c3c0e6.jpg

I'd love to hear everyone's opinions! Thanks in advance!

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Originally Posted by Wobbilly5

He hasn't bred yet. He eats well though and will be ready next season. He is for sale and I'm trying to decide if he's worth the investment.....I'm just not 100% sold yet.

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How much are they selling him for?

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Originally Posted by SnowShredder

How much are they selling him for?

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He is asking $5000. I just can't justify that for an unproven trait.

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Originally Posted by Wobbilly5

He is asking $5000. I just can't justify that for an unproven trait.

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Yeah, I wouldn't pay that

5000 seems too much, thats for people that want to try to prove out a new morph.


For that money, you can get proven out darkening genes, even the hottest ones like mahogany or GHI. And when it comes to cinnamon / black pastel / het red axanthic, you have a large variety of super-forms and 2-gene combos to choose from and likely still have most of the money left even if you pick something really REALLY nice.

its just too high a price i think. its a nice snake, but still, the alternatives of what you can get for 5000 dollars are just crushing it.

Many folks have spend MUCH more on unproven traits over the years. In 2011, I paid $8000 for one unproven snake and compared to some older mutations that's cheap these days. And I still spend on unproven traits. Risk vs reward sometimes. Typically the higher the risk the higher the potential reward. Africa has played this game for a while now, so you can thank all the breeders who have spent money on unproven specials to have so much neat stuff to work with these days.

That being said, I don't see this as a $5000 pickup based on my understanding of BPs looking identical to this and not proving. Also, if it proves genetic, I'm not even sure it would necessarily draw that kind of money. It doesn't look dynamic enough... of course, that could all change with combos if it were genetic. However, its not $5000 in my eyes.

I like to price unproven stuff based on likelihood to be genetic, appearance, and originality on a scale/pricing system that I've created to help me price import prospects. I would price him at $1500-$2000 or so. Originality is pretty high on my list because love working with original looking animals. Very hard to buy them away from me, so that typically is how pricing can get difficult for me. Of course this would be knowing he was in fact an import and not CB.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Many folks have spend MUCH more on unproven traits over the years. In 2011, I paid $8000 for one unproven snake and compared to some older mutations that's cheap these days. And I still spend on unproven traits. Risk vs reward sometimes. Typically the higher the risk the higher the potential reward. Africa has played this game for a while now, so you can thank all the breeders who have spent money on unproven specials to have so much neat stuff to work with these days.

That being said, I don't see this as a $5000 pickup based on my understanding of BPs looking identical to this and not proving. Also, if it proves genetic, I'm not even sure it would necessarily draw that kind of money. It doesn't look dynamic enough... of course, that could all change with combos if it were genetic. However, its not $5000 in my eyes.

I like to price unproven stuff based on likelihood to be genetic, appearance, and originality on a scale/pricing system that I've created to help me price import prospects. I would price him at $1500-$2000 or so. Originality is pretty high on my list because love working with original looking animals. Very hard to buy them away from me, so that typically is how pricing can get difficult for me. Of course this would be knowing he was in fact an import and not CB.

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Thanks for the great reply. He thinks that it's likely genetic because the belly is clear and has fairly definitive lines separating the belly and the side pattern. He believes that most codominant mutations have that characteristic.

Let's pretend he DOES prove out to be genetic....codominant. How would you see his offspring being priced the first few years? And what if he somehow turns out to be a super? That would make him less valuable? or more valuable? Also, wouldn't his originality be high based on other dark morphs that are genetic thus far?

Thanks.
Kyle

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Looks similar to the voodoo ball. I've seen a few look like this come in from Africa over the years and nothing has come of them yet genetically.

However, I would still breed this one, as it looks a little different than the others I've seen. Typically the super melanistic balls that haven't proven have smaller heads, sometimes buggy eyes, small deformities, etc. This looks promising from what I see. Can you show us a belly pic?

Good luck regardless! I'd love to see something like that prove out!

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Interesting that you say that, because he is very slightly duckbilled. He has just a bit of a pinched nose.

Well let's just say the super would be an all black snake. The fact he is so dark doesn't point inc co-dom to me. Because I don't see that as the half-way point to a super form. If that makes sense? So we are more than likely looking recessive. I'm already cautious because I'm curious who imported this guy.

As for pricing if genetic, the public likes bright, high contrast animals in general, but some dark mutations have been very popular, but they show a tremendous array of dynamic combo ability that have more contrast and different tones than this guy. I don't see it being priced super-high unless it unlocked something cool, but I just don't see it ATM. I do think its original, and id like one in my collection if it was proven, but I probably wouldn't spend more than 5k unless it showed combo ability. Hope that helps.

Hmm duckbilled would actually imply homozygous form of the black pastel complex. Which would actually point more towards it being genetic, however... It could mean a developmental problem which gave it his appearance.

Again, I'm curious who imported this and their creditability.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Hmm duckbilled would actually imply homozygous form of the black pastel complex. Which would actually point more towards it being genetic, however... It could mean a developmental problem which gave it his appearance.

Again, I'm curious who imported this and their creditability.

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Yes i was thinking that as well. But then, duckbill is known in super black pastel and super cinnamon, not so much in black pastel cinnamon (8 ball). and these are completely patternless. so if this snake has a slight duckbill, thats not really consistent with it still having pattern. also im not sure if what we see in the pictures even is a duckbill, its a slight duckbill at most.

if its a new genetic codom, it will be interesting to see if it has a healthy super form. if it has one, it will be a direct competitor to GHI and mahogany i think, competing with stuff like:

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...tel-super-ghi/
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/suma/

both of these duckbill free and interesting for combos containing the super.

and if its a recessive then i have no clue, no idea.

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Originally Posted by Wobbilly5

Let's pretend he DOES prove out to be genetic....codominant. How would you see his offspring being priced the first few years? And what if he somehow turns out to be a super? That would make him less valuable? or more valuable? Also, wouldn't his originality be high based on other dark morphs that are genetic thus far?

Thanks.
Kyle

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I'm not going to get into pricing. It is my weakest subject.

Look at the snake's parents. If both look normal, then the dark snake is either heterozygous for a dominant dark gene or heterozygous for a codominant dark gene. Or the dark snake is homozygous for a recessive mutant gene.

Homozygous = the two genes in the gene pair are the same.
Heterozygous = the two genes in the gene pair are NOT the same. In this case the two genes would be a dark mutant gene and a normal gene.

I am using normal to mean the parents look the way they are expected to look from their known genetic make up. If nothing is known about their genetic make up then they look like the majority of ball pythons in the wild.

If the two parents look normal, then the odds of the mutant gene being codominant to the normal gene and the dark snake being a super are astronomical against. Because if both parents look the way they are expected to look, then both parents would have to have the same spontaneous mutation take place. And then a sperm with that mutant gene would have to fertilize an egg with that mutant gene. Assuming the odds of that mutation as 1 in a thousand, the odds of a super would be something like 4 million to 1 against. Not odds I would bet the farm on.

Also look at the dark snake's brothers and sisters. If they look normal, then the odds against that dark snake being a super get higher.

I always recommend that a new mutant gene be assumed to be recessive to the corresponding normal gene. Then it is no disappointment to need two generations to get more. And it is a nice surprise if the mutant is a dominant or codominant gene.

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Originally Posted by Wobbilly5

A friend of mine showed me this male that was imported last July.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by paulh

Look at the snake's parents. If both look normal, then the dark snake is either heterozygous for a dominant dark gene or heterozygous for a codominant dark gene. Or the dark snake is homozygous for a recessive mutant gene.

Homozygous = the two genes in the gene pair are the same.
Heterozygous = the two genes in the gene pair are NOT the same. In this case the two genes would be a dark mutant gene and a normal gene.

I am using normal to mean the parents look the way they are expected to look from their known genetic make up. If nothing is known about their genetic make up then they look like the majority of ball pythons in the wild.

If the two parents look normal, then the odds of the mutant gene being codominant to the normal gene and the dark snake being a super are astronomical against. Because if both parents look the way they are expected to look, then both parents would have to have the same spontaneous mutation take place. And then a sperm with that mutant gene would have to fertilize an egg with that mutant gene. Assuming the odds of that mutation as 1 in a thousand, the odds of a super would be something like 4 million to 1 against. Not odds I would bet the farm on.

Also look at the dark snake's brothers and sisters. If they look normal, then the odds against that dark snake being a super get higher.

I always recommend that a new mutant gene be assumed to be recessive to the corresponding normal gene. Then it is no disappointment to need two generations to get more. And it is a nice surprise if the mutant is a dominant or codominant gene.

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Just throwing that out there Paul ;) But good write up!

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Originally Posted by paulh

Look at the snake's parents.

I always recommend that a new mutant gene be assumed to be recessive to the corresponding normal gene. Then it is no disappointment to need two generations to get more. And it is a nice surprise if the mutant is a dominant or codominant gene.

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Oops. I missed the part in the original post that the dark snake was imported. No parents to look at. :( Thanks, RoseyReps.

I stick by the recommendation in the quote.

I agree! It was a good write up, just the parent comparison wouldn't work ;) Solid advice imo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Hmm duckbilled would actually imply homozygous form of the black pastel complex. Which would actually point more towards it being genetic, however... It could mean a developmental problem which gave it his appearance.

Again, I'm curious who imported this and their creditability.

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I may be mistaken, but I believe I held this animal at both the July 2012 and November 2012 Columbia Repticon shows. If it is the same animal, the man selling this animal at that time was named Leroy Adams. He said that he goes to Atlanta when one of his contacts gets new shipments in from Africa and he picks out the ones that have unique look to them and sells them. He had a number of interesting animals (imported and captive hatched) that he had on his table such as possible Leopard females and so forth.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I have concerns about the legitimacy of those washed-out photos. I know that some people like to dress up their photos with mirrors or different background techniques, but it looks to me like the flash reflecting in the mirror is playing tricks against the snake. I'd love to see pictures in natural light just after a shed, even if he's not in shed right now. I say that because I have a male normal whose color ranges from caramel to dark chocolate depending on how long it's been since his last shed. Right after a shed he'll be the creamiest shades of caramel you've ever seen, and then as time goes on, a few weeks before his next shed he gets to be these 80-90% cocoa dark chocolate colors. There's something about the pattern of that snake that I don't see with my boy, but it raises questions in my mind about what his true color spectrum is.

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Originally Posted by slashlax99

I may be mistaken, but I believe I held this animal at both the July 2012 and November 2012 Columbia Repticon shows. If it is the same animal, the man selling this animal at that time was named Leroy Adams. He said that he goes to Atlanta when one of his contacts gets new shipments in from Africa and he picks out the ones that have unique look to them and sells them. He had a number of interesting animals (imported and captive hatched) that he had on his table such as possible Leopard females and so forth.

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You are not mistaken! This is Leroy's animal. I just moved to the Charlotte area and found Leroy as a source of feeders for my collection. He showed me his collection and I couldn't help but post this animal on here. He has lots of dinkers with seemingly good potential. I'd love to own this snake but have decided I can't even begin to negotiate from such a high price for an unproven animal. Leroy said he will be taking it to the upcoming Myrtle Beach show and hopes to sell it there.

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Originally Posted by SaintTawny

Maybe I'm the only one, but I have concerns about the legitimacy of those washed-out photos. I know that some people like to dress up their photos with mirrors or different background techniques, but it looks to me like the flash reflecting in the mirror is playing tricks against the snake. I'd love to see pictures in natural light just after a shed, even if he's not in shed right now. I say that because I have a male normal whose color ranges from caramel to dark chocolate depending on how long it's been since his last shed. Right after a shed he'll be the creamiest shades of caramel you've ever seen, and then as time goes on, a few weeks before his next shed he gets to be these 80-90% cocoa dark chocolate colors. There's something about the pattern of that snake that I don't see with my boy, but it raises questions in my mind about what his true color spectrum is.

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The photos are definitely rough. The washed out pictures with the mirror were sent to me from him with permission to post them and the picture with better light I took myself while I was holding it (in shed). I will be sure to take some good pictures with natural light next time I visit him and then I won't hesitate to post for you guys to see and discern from.

Hehehe, I like the work out flip book you have going on after those photos in your album lol. :P:D

Why were all of the photos taken down?

Why were all the pics deleted? I wanna see it!

Picture I took outside (in shed)

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...psf8085f1b.jpg

Pictures from the breeder.....

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps15c3c0e6.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps8919cd04.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps99e212d7.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps1dc490cd.jpg

I'll post more pictures next week with better lighting and NOT in shed.

I had something similar and it didn't prove to be genetic.

Here we go! Enjoy!

Useful information: Apparently when he was a baby IMPORT, he was very similar looking to a cinnamon and was bought as a cinnamon, the only obvious difference being that he didn't have an eye stripe. He has been changing ever since, losing his brown color and still having very little eye stripe. I actually couldn't see any eye stripe at all in person and then when I looked at the pictures I was surprised to see that one showed up a little bit.

Experts! I got you good photos! Please chime in!

Thanks!

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps97a64bb1.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...psee4c0f66.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps7b07d5ab.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps367b418a.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps597d9787.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps42bdcaf7.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps4d89c87e.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps6097116c.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps4bba46dd.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...psb34e134d.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...psa82ce02c.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...psbc3e062a.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps1a4d82e3.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...psb045b275.jpg

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/z...psdabd5394.jpg

I will say Double gene Cinnamon/Sable

he's gorgeous.
is he more grey than brown or is his true coloring just not coming through?

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Originally Posted by Aes_Sidhe

I will say Double gene Cinnamon/Sable

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http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/black-sable/

Well, here is your black pastel sable.....not nearly the same. I would have posted a cinnamon sable but no pictures are available on WOBP. Remember, it's wild caught. Thanks for the reply!

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Originally Posted by qegalpal

he's gorgeous.
is he more grey than brown or is his true coloring just not coming through?

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The sunlight makes him look lighter than he appears in person. At a glance he looks like the first couple of pictures when he is on the white towel. I tried to get him in the sunlight so that his pattern would show up better. He's black and a very dark dark brown. The owner says he has gotten much darker as he's grown, and used to look very cinnamon-like. He's not so cinnamon like anymore.....

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Originally Posted by Wobbilly5

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/black-sable/

Well, here is your black pastel sable.....not nearly the same. I would have posted a cinnamon sable but no pictures are available on WOBP. Remember, it's wild caught. Thanks for the reply!

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Dang my Bad.. I meant Cinnamon Super Sable...

here is SS picture..

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/super-sable/

If You add Cinamon influence.... this is how's your snake looks like... and Slightly ducky face suggest cinnamon in Yours...

Don't get me wrong... I wish You best with Proving him to be something totally new and unique... but my money now is on Cinnamon/Super Sable

I'm liking it and am looking forward to seeing what it produces!