Raw/Whole Prey Diet Appreciation Thread! *graphic warning*

This is a thread for those who practice or is interested in feeding raw/whole prey to their carnivorous furry friends. (Inspired by Pookie's Dog thread)
So, please feel free to share your experiences, diets, feeding process, and pictures! :)

*Beware, this will be a graphic thread.*


My experience:
Ferrets are obligate carnivores. They cannot digest grain, fiber, or any type of plant based material. Kibble has too much junk ferrets cannot digest.
Since switching my ferrets from kibble to whole prey, I have seen a vast improvement in body condition and overall health. They have great teeth, decreased appetite due to getting more nutrients/energy in less volume of food, less odor, less waste, more energy, more muscle mass, and softer and shinier coat (they glitter in the sun). My particular business of ferrets have been feeding on a variety of prey for the past 3 years and I couldn't be happier with their health and looks, especially with how prevalent Insulinoma is within the U.S.

Diet:
Mice, rats, rabbits, turkey, chicken, duck, quail, & freeze dried livers and meats.
I do provide a 'high quality' kibble 24/7, because I do have a strict kibble eating ferret in the group that needs to be free-fed. The rest are on whole prey. And between a nice juicy rat and a bowl of kibble, they will always choose the prey.

Feeding process:
Live, F/T, P/K depending on prey and size. I mainly feed live, but will pre-kill adult rats and rabbits for safety reasons. Poultry is given in a chick or juvi form so the ferrets can easily kill them without injury. And while I have no doubt they can take down an adult bird fine, I'd rather not risk it.





http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...psa6619896.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...pse8b043cc.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...ps09290e90.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...ps42cc2ed6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...ps989194d5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...ps9fd2a9ea.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...ps1fab08dd.jpg

Video of a female eating a mouse (no killing):
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=...81537988713265

Your ferrets are cute as heck!

Ive been in the pet business for like 15 years...and your ferrets look beautiful! Yes, working in the industry and getting lots of pet nutrition training, (esp. for dog and cat health) IMO, going grain free is the best choice for all obligate carnivores...esp. cats. People spend sooooo much money on their cats to help them get better, wheras it all could have been prevented by just making a few changes in their diet. I worked at a store in jersey, and we sold a lot of the frozen raw meat diets for dogs and cats. The customers that did do the "BARF" diet had pets that looked great! And for the most part, people that had a dog/cat that had a health issue and did NOT feed a grain free diet quickly discovered the benefits when they eliminated the grain from the diet. Did you carefully research how to switch your ferrets over?

I feed raw meat to one of my cats because he can't digest even the grain free stuff. It's been about 10 months now and his digestive tract has just now gotten back to normal but the base meat consists of venison, elk, or bison. To that, I add calcium, taurine, Missing Link, and a multivitamin. I would love to use whole foods but unfortunately he just gives me any mice he catches (still alive) and refuses to eat whole ground up chicken legs/thighs which are a staple for many raw food cat diets. In this case, I wouldn't feed raw unless I had to but his digestive tract not only disagrees with commercial food (holistic, organic, grain-free or otherwise) to the point that it wasn't processing hardly any of it. I worry about raw food diets unless the animal does eat whole prey so they get all the good stuff which comes from the organ meat, etc. Bulls, on the other hand, would rather starve than eat liver, gizzards, hearts, or anything but wild game red meat...

Yeah, that Missing Link stuff is great.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Ive been in the pet business for like 15 years...and your ferrets look beautiful! Yes, working in the industry and getting lots of pet nutrition training, (esp. for dog and cat health) IMO, going grain free is the best choice for all obligate carnivores...esp. cats. People spend sooooo much money on their cats to help them get better, wheras it all could have been prevented by just making a few changes in their diet. I worked at a store in jersey, and we sold a lot of the frozen raw meat diets for dogs and cats. The customers that did do the "BARF" diet had pets that looked great! And for the most part, people that had a dog/cat that had a health issue and did NOT feed a grain free diet quickly discovered the benefits when they eliminated the grain from the diet. Did you carefully research how to switch your ferrets over?

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Thank you! :)
I agree. I think grain free is best for obligate carnivores as well. Dogs too, honestly.
But don't forget to look at the ingredients list for the grain free stuff. They usually substitute the grain portion for corn or other starch/carb since they're all binders that hold the kibble together. I recently just read a study done on rats who were fed GMO corn their entire lives. They grew massive tumors as large as their own bodies. So staying away from grain/corn/etc is best imo. Who knows where pet food companies get their ingredients.

BARF diet is so awesome. I haven't tried it, but I'd like to some day.

I did do quite a bit of research before switching my ferrets over. I know there are 'good and bad' kibbles, but even the good commercial kibbles aren't that great. The top premium commercial ferret diets (by Wysong) that are pure animal meat content costs an arm and a leg. For an 18 pound bag, it's $80! It's much more efficient and easier on the wallet to feed them raw whole prey. Plus it's a rather enriching activity for the ferrets.

Also, after comparing the average American ferret with the average European ferret was an eye opener. In Europe, ferrets are working animals. They don't have commerical kibbles over there, so they are fed a strict raw diet. European ferrets are so much more robust and healthy. They don't have the same health issues America ferrets have. A lot of it is related to the grain/carb/starch in their diets.

If you are interested, this is a nice overview of Ferret Insulinoma (hypoglycemis) and the importance of diet:
http://holisticferret60.proboards.co...ay&thread=2702

Awesome thread!

Currently none of my carnivorous companions (other than my snakes of course) are on a raw diet. I plan on switching them back very soon but I need to brush up on my know-how.

When my ferrets were on a raw diet I saw amazing results. My ferrets smelled less, went to the bathroom less, were more energetic, and went completely nuts over meal time. Several years back I put my cats on a raw diet for a month and was very impressed with how it improved the health of my cats. Unfortunately, kibble is convenient and both cats and ferrets were switched back but I'd really like them to go raw again. It was so good for them.

Twitch, my smallest female ferret still gets a mouse or rat from time to time, when one of the snakes doesn't eat. But I'd really like it to be more often. :D I'm planning on switching them to a whole prey/raw diet.

I want one. there cute

When i get my own dog i plan to do a raw diet. Pooks and coleslaw showed me the way of the dark side! :D

Now I really really want a ferret... when i was livin in Fl my roomate wife has 2.. you should see them playin with our pit-bull lolz.. sweetest view ever...

That's really interesting tread...

Is truth that you should house them at least in pair.. I heard that lonely ferret is not happy ferret...

Yes, at a minimum keep them in pairs. I like a group of 3-4 myself. I have 3 currently. They do everything together, including sleeping on top of each other in the same hammock. I often wonder if they can breath like that. :P

Is their smell less odoriferous on a whole prey diet?

Here are some of my cat eating her dinner last night

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...69338243_n.jpg

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...09534875_n.jpg

Its not necessarily the ferret itself that smells less but the urine and the feces smell less.

pookie, that is such a cute kitty! She looks like she loves it. My biggest cat Ramman liked beef when we had them on raw for a month. Our youngest, Liam would actually sit in your lap and want you to hand feed him. It was adorable.

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Originally Posted by aldebono

Is their smell less odoriferous on a whole prey diet?

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Yes. Quality of food will effect body odor. A lot of their body odor does go down. If say, you fed a very poor quality kibble diet, you'll get really stinky weasels and poops. The poops will be massive and really smelly. When fed on a raw/whole prey diet, it's a lot more 'cleansing' and doesn't contain 'bad stuff'. Their odor disappears to almost nothing. Ferrets produce a lot of body oils. The diet is reflected in those oils. The worse the diet, the more those oils smell. And vice versa.

And their poops are almost nonexistent. It's basically just the prey's fur that comes out.

But of course there will still be some ferrety odor. Just toned down by many times compared to a kibble fed ferret. I honestly cannot smell my ferrets any more. The odor of my friends' kibble fed ferrets are much much stronger.

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Originally Posted by Aes_Sidhe

Now I really really want a ferret... when i was livin in Fl my roomate wife has 2.. you should see them playin with our pit-bull lolz.. sweetest view ever...

That's really interesting tread...

Is truth that you should house them at least in pair.. I heard that lonely ferret is not happy ferret...

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Honestly, it depends on the individual. It is mostly true though. Most of the ferrets I've met have always done excellent in pairs or more. But there are the occasional loner ferrets who just can't stand other ferrets. I know three particular individuals who hate other ferrets and would rather just be alone with their human. But those ferrets tend to need more individual attention. In a group, the ferrets have at least each other to play with and keep each other company if you're ever too busy.

I would still recommend pairs or more to everyone though. I think 3 is the magic number. Ferrets tend to bond to each other, so when one passes, the other often goes into depression (no joke) and will often pass soon after as well. With 3 ferrets, if one passes, the other two will still have each other.

I personally have 3. My boyfriend has 3 of his own as well. Between the both of us, we've fostered a couple ferrets over time with our crew. All of those fosters have always appreciated the company of the other ferrets. And the crew has always coped better with the death of a group member or major changes in general when they were all together.

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Originally Posted by Juan Carlos

I want one. there cute

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Yes. The are very cute. But be careful. They are A LOT of work and responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

When i get my own dog i plan to do a raw diet. Pooks and coleslaw showed me the way of the dark side! :D

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Come to AZ, we'll show you further into the dark side ;)

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

Come to AZ, we'll show you further into the dark side ;)

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I'd actually prefer that you keep your clothes on.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

Come to AZ, we'll show you further into the dark side ;)

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Post pictures of your raw feeder!

I'd love video of them huning/killing, just because I am curious how they hunt/kill live prey. I've seen plenty of ferrets but have never known any to eat live prey.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I'd actually prefer that you keep your clothes on.

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Whoa... SO not what I meant, will do lol.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Post pictures of your raw feeder!

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I'll have to take some!

Sent from microwave via Tapatalk ll

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

I'd love video of them huning/killing, just because I am curious how they hunt/kill live prey. I've seen plenty of ferrets but have never known any to eat live prey.

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They kill like most other predatory mammals. A bite to the back of the neck is usually what happens. The bite itself is just about an instant kill for the mice. The ferrets need to do to a little more maneuvering for the rats and other larger prey in order to get into the perfect position for a neck bite.

When they're in a group, they'll also fight over prey.

I'll have some videos of them killing mice/rats/duck. I'll see if I could upload them.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

This is a thread for those who practice or is interested in feeding raw/whole prey to their carnivorous furry friends. (Inspired by Pookie's Dog thread)
So, please feel free to share your experiences, diets, feeding process, and pictures! :)

*Beware, this will be a graphic thread.*


My experience:
Ferrets are obligate carnivores. They cannot digest grain, fiber, or any type of plant based material. Kibble has too much junk ferrets cannot digest.
Since switching my ferrets from kibble to whole prey, I have seen a vast improvement in body condition and overall health. They have great teeth, decreased appetite due to getting more nutrients/energy in less volume of food, less odor, less waste, more energy, more muscle mass, and softer and shinier coat (they glitter in the sun). My particular business of ferrets have been feeding on a variety of prey for the past 3 years and I couldn't be happier with their health ...

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thanks for posting. definitely something to consider if I ever follow through on getting a few of my own. also good use of the collective 'business of ferrets.' not many people know that one. it's my favorite next to a parliament of owls, a murder of crows, and an impatience of wives.

Don't have many pictures, but both of my dogs and both of my cats are on a raw/prey model diet. Doing great! All of them run around like youngsters (the cats are 9-10 years old, one dog is 6 years old, the other dog 2 years old). They always get rave reviews by the vet, perfect 5 on body condition scale. Their blood work always comes back clean and perfect.

One of my dogs eating:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...lley_bone2.jpg

This is what "their" freezer looked like before we upgraded to a larger one.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...at_freezer.jpg

Gawww I wish I had that freezer space lol

I've got 3 dogs, 2 ferrets and a cat all raw fed here, will not go back to kibble, they all look feel better and feel than ever and they love it.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...une2011024.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...dpipvid014.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rch2011002.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...feb2012009.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...sgiving001.jpg
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http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/IMG_1395.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...ept2012011.jpg

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Originally Posted by sorraia

Don't have many pictures, but both of my dogs and both of my cats are on a raw/prey model diet. Doing great! All of them run around like youngsters (the cats are 9-10 years old, one dog is 6 years old, the other dog 2 years old). They always get rave reviews by the vet, perfect 5 on body condition scale. Their blood work always comes back clean and perfect.

One of my dogs eating:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...lley_bone2.jpg

This is what "their" freezer looked like before we upgraded to a larger one.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...at_freezer.jpg

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:bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow:

Wow! That is one heck of a freezer. With us having just moved to the other side of town, feeding raw may be a bit more doable. Our biggest problem before was getting organ meats and hearts as the only organs you could really get on the southside of town was chicken liver and if you were lucky the package of hearts and gizzards MIGHT have at least 3 chicken hearts in it. Now that we live on the west end, we are closer to a store that carries a few different types of organ and also carries heart. :) I'll have to sit down with the hubby when he gets back from his trip and convince him to let the ferrets go raw/whole prey again. The cats too!

As far as hunting, only one of mine hunts. That's Twitch. On occasion I like to let her hunt in the bathtub with a live mouse. Usually she eats the head but leaves the body in the tub. If I put it in her food bowl she'll finish it later. Damien, my oldest boy likes whole prey but he won't hunt. Kale has absolutely no interest in whole prey but will eat raw. I plan on slowly introducing him to whole prey soon.

GoingPostal, those pics are amazing! One of the biggest reasons I am wanting to learn to hunt is so I can provide meat for my furkids. I'll have to try that hook thing with chicken legs and wings as I have the toughest time getting mine to eat the whole thing, but I've heard the hook helps.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

This is what "their" freezer looked like before we upgraded to a larger one.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...at_freezer.jpg

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Extremely extremely jealous. I need a pet meat freezer!

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

I've got 3 dogs, 2 ferrets and a cat all raw fed here, will not go back to kibble, they all look feel better and feel than ever and they love it.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...une2011024.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...dpipvid014.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rch2011002.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...feb2012009.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...sgiving001.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...rscraps003.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/IMG_1395.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...ept2012011.jpg

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This is totally amazing!
Love it!

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

I'd love video of them huning/killing, just because I am curious how they hunt/kill live prey. I've seen plenty of ferrets but have never known any to eat live prey.

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Just warning you, this may be a little violent. Bigger the prey, harder they are the kill.

Excuse the awkward music. Coleslaw and Bobbafett requested it. >___<;;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7eaRzPx4lY



And a 2 year old video of a mouse feed (not as graphic):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZcb8fxmn8

Quote:

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Just warning you, this may be a little violent. Bigger the prey, harder they are the kill.

Excuse the awkward music. Coleslaw and Bobbafett requested it. >___<;;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7eaRzPx4lY



And a 2 year old video of a mouse feed (not as graphic):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZcb8fxmn8

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It's not awkward!
It's awesome

Shakira woulda been better... I'm sure the rat had an Objection!

Great video! I think the music choice was appropriate.

I have to go to the reptile shop today to pick up live feeders for the snakes. I think I'll get Twitch a treat and surprise her with a mouse. :) I'll try to get video. For anyone feeding raw/whole prey to ferrets, do you follow a specific menu? I found when I was feeding mine I'd stick to a set schedule that way I never forgot to give them the right ratio of raw meaty bones, meat, and organs. If any of you follow a menu, could you post it here or PM it to me. I'm sure I have my old menu somewhere out there but my old one did not incorporate whole prey, which is something I'd like to do.

Any ideas on how to get Kale (ferret) to eat whole prey? He'll sniff it but other than that he's absolutely uninterested.

It's a process, just start with small pieces mixed in with their regular food, cut up or blended depending on your animal. After a while as their system get use to it and develops the necessary bacteria to help break it down and digest it, up the amount just like switching dog foods. After time they learn to recognize the taste and smell as prey / food then you can start to offer whole items. What to eat isn't all instinct they also have to learn what's good to eat, it usually comes from their parents (depending on the animal) so that's where we come in.

This was Dino with his first rabbit.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...n/IMGP1028.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...n/IMGP1029.jpg

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My dogs ate raw as well. The last one I got Cocoa, she pretty much took to whole prey by watching me feed my reptiles. She had stolen rat feeders before but this was the day I actually gave her one to make sure, since I had never actually seen her eat one.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...n/IMGP4462.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...n/IMGP4459.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...n/IMGP4456.jpg

Ferrets are a little harder to switch than a dog. They imprint of certain foods they've been introduced to in the first 6 months of their life, which is their critical period. Some ferrets will never switch to certain foods. They would rather starve than try something new. So I can't guarantee than the ferret in question will ever eat whole prey. However, I'll give you advise to try.


It's not that hard to teach a ferret. It just takes time and patients.
Since they're predators, you have to teach them what is prey and that it is food. Usually in the wild, their wild ancestors and modern polecat cousins are taught by mom. No mama weasel here, so we have to teach them ourselves.
Usually mothers bring back a small (or injured) prey so the babies can play with them and practice their skills. It's basically the same thing when teaching domestic ferrets.
You introduce prey to them. They won't understand right away, but they'll start picking up on it eventually. (Between 3-10 introductions in my experience)
They have a natural prey/chase drive, so anything that moves, they will chase. If your ferret likes teaser toys, it will be a good hunter.
Ferrets older than 6 months can only taste protein, so when they taste the meat, something internally triggers in them to know it is food.
Ferrets imprint in the first 6 months of their lives like I mentioned, so it's best to introduce everything within this critical time period. It becomes more difficult as they are older, but it is do-able. Just a little longer process. Some ferrets are just hooked onto kibble from imprinting on it and will never eat anything else. But I haven't had that issue yet.

When I first started feeding whole prey, I had 2 adults and 1 baby. The adults were taught first and they took about 3 sessions each to understand what a mouse was and that it was food. I let the baby in with them later on when they were experienced hunters and they taught the baby by visual observation. The baby got it on his first try and is the most obsessed with prey.

I've taught a few older foster ferrets the same way. They've picked up much quicker because they were able to observe from the others.
My boyfriend taught his ferrets who to eat whole prey the same way I taught my original 2. (Just consecutive introduction)
His new baby got it right away after watching the rest of the group eat too.

The babies are the most aggressive when it comes to feeding time now. I think it's because they were young when they were introduced.

And type of prey matters in some individuals. They have preferences. My boyfriend's baby ferret goes nuts for chicks. It's the only type of prey where he actually eats the whole thing right away and won't share. My baby prefers rodents and will stash kills and guard them from the other ferrets.

Starting off with live hopper/adult mice is best. They're a good safe size to teach your ferret. Once they're experienced, you can try other types of prey(live,f/t,p/k) or just raw in general. I suggest trying live first to get them interested. They're more interested in fast moving things. So the live mice are perfect. Once they understand that prey is food, you can switch over to whatever if you're not comfortable with live. They take the frozen or prekilled much more readily once they understand that it is food, which is why I always start them off on live.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Also, if he won't even chase mice, I suggest trying a rabbit pink. Something about them drives the ferrets crazy. Even the ferrets who are stuck on kibble and never react to prey have shown some sort of predatory reaction to the rabbits.

Edit: I also realized after the last post that your female already ate live mice. Sorry if I repeated anything you already knew.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I will definitely give that a try. Mixing it in with other food might help. I just asked hubby if we could try putting them on raw again and he said okay. :D Its much more expensive than feeding them kibble but its better for them and if we can afford it I think we should switch. We never really had much of an issue switching Twitch over to raw or whole prey. She just took to it like she'd been eating it all her life. We started her young (she was less than 3 months old I'd say) and started with mouse pinks. She thought they were treats :rolleyes:. And it just kind of took off from there. When we got Damien he took to raw pretty well and has recently (in the past year) started playing tug of war with Twitch over mice and eating part of it.



Do you have a menu you tend to follow? I find following a menu helps me stay organized.

I feed partial frankenprey, part whole prey but my two are currently eating this menu plus they eat 1 patty stella & chewys or another freeze dried raw, split into two meals for soup, my female has to eat before her meds. Proteins are turkey, duck, lamb, rabbit and beef rotated daily. As far as getting them to eat whole prey, I had started feeding my ferrets mice long before I switched to raw, one loved them from the start so if my snake didn't eat it she would and I started buying them for her, she taught most of the others. Never could get two of that crew to eat them but once those passed I switched the remaining four to raw and from eating mice they had no hesitation for quail, rabbit and guinea pigs.

Ferret menu
1-half an adult quail
2-other half quail
3-rabbit ribs
4-adult mice, one per ferret, two if they are just weaned smaller ones
5-turkey meat, livers, kidneys, heart
6-bone in duck piece
7-varies, sometimes chicken, game hen, goat, grouse, more rabbit or mice again

Thanks. I'll be doing some research and putting together a menu this week. Then I'll go out on Friday and price stuff out. :)

My menu is on my first original post.

I like feeding whole prey so I don't have to supplement so many things into their diet. I feed mice, rats, rabbit, chicks, turkey, duck, quail, freeze dried livers, chicken jerky, etc.

I really want to try guinea pig. I've been trying to find some feeders for a decent price for a while.

Between 3 ferrets. Birds last a meal or two per ferret. Adult rats and 1-3 lb rabbits can last 2 days before fully consumed by the group. Adult mice and equivalent size rats are just single snacks and just last a few minutes.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

What did you guys/girls feed to your dogs at first? To get them use to raw food diet.
I've read Chicken is the best option, since it is better on their digestive systems at first is this true? Or can I start him on another meat?
Also when you first started feeding your dog the raw diet, how long you wait to introduce the organ meats? (Including the heart)

I also read chicken backs are good for dental hygiene for my dog, what happens if I can't find him em? Are there alternatives? (This includes turkey back, / neck.) in the worst case.

I haven't done this with a dog. But for ferrets. However, same concept is used whenever introducing new foods to anything really...

You mix old foods with new food.
Start out with a very small portion or raw to old kibble. Like 25% raw to 75% kibble for a few weeks then gradually go to 50-50%. And eventually 75% raw to 25% kibble etc, etc.

I've always introduced organs from the start. It won't be a complete diet otherwise.

And its much easier on carnivore to digest raw than commercial foods. They're designed and evolved to digest such foods.

Just chewing the raw meat itself is great for dental health. Bone is helpful, but the meat acts like a tooth brush too getting rubbed into the nooks and crannies. Dogs have a slicing motion with their teeth when they chew. Meat gets up in between each tooth compared to a dry kibble that breaks at the tip of the tooth when being eaten.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by Newbie Ball

What did you guys/girls feed to your dogs at first? To get them use to raw food diet.
I've read Chicken is the best option, since it is better on their digestive systems at first is this true? Or can I start him on another meat?
Also when you first started feeding your dog the raw diet, how long you wait to introduce the organ meats? (Including the heart)

I also read chicken backs are good for dental hygiene for my dog, what happens if I can't find him em? Are there alternatives? (This includes turkey back, / neck.) in the worst case.

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My dogs were easy to switch. Basically they said, "Meat? I can really eat this and not get yelled at? Cool!" I did have them on whole prey for a little while, that was a little harder. Basically had them eating regular raw (meaty bits, organ, etc), then gradually added cut up pieces of whole prey, gradually up to whole prey.

My dogs' diet is based on chicken and other poultry, and I think that's what I started with too. It is easier on their stomachs, and my one dog gets extremely gassy if she has any kind of lamb or pork, and will get gassy if she gets beef on a regular basis. Just start slow and see what your dog can tolerate. At this point I don't remember how long I waited to introduce organ, but I want to say it was a couple weeks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I haven't done this with a dog. But for ferrets. However, same concept is used whenever introducing new foods to anything really...

You mix old foods with new food.
Start out with a very small portion or raw to old kibble. Like 25% raw to 75% kibble for a few weeks then gradually go to 50-50%. And eventually 75% raw to 25% kibble etc, etc.

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I just wanted to clarify that this is for ferrets. They won't eat kibble and raw at the same time. They'll eat one or the other depending on the ferret if both types of food are presented at the same time. Most imprinted ferrets will always go for the kibble. And all raw fed ferrets will always choose the raw over kibble.




In dogs, they'll probably eat everything at the same time. So its best to keep raw and kibble in separate meal times since the digestion rate is different for both types of food.


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I LOVE THIS THREAD!!!!

My dogs - 2 English Bulldogs and a Bichon Frise are on Prey Model Raw.

They started off as kibble-fed (rescues). At first, I went with good quality kibble (BB Wilderness and Earthborn Holistics) but I was having a hard time with the English Bulldogs... EBs are known for genetic food allergies... so I went with PMR.

PMR is a whole prey diet. No plants needed. It's what dogs eat if they were dropped off in the middle of the amazon forest. It is difficult to get an entire animal in an urban area though because they don't just sell whole chicken in the stores with guts and stuff. So, we had to do a "frankenwennie" kind of thing... buy body parts to make up the whole prey. So, the rule-of-thumb of frankenwennie is: 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other secreting organs. Hearts, tongue, and gizzards are grouped in the 80% and so is tripe (green, with contents!... not that bleached stuff from the grocery). Secreting organs can be kidneys and brains. I started my dogs with 3% of their expected adult body weight worth of food per day. That amounted to 1.8 lbs per day on the EBs and .45 lbs on the Bichon. My dog only eats once a day.

Now, we're Snake people - so we have pretty good sources of good whole prey like Rabbits and Chickens and Quail and Rats, etc. But, for most folks, when they think rabbits, they think that chopped up stuff in a foam container and shrink wrapped... So, if I had access to Rodentpro and the like, my switching method would be to get one of them big rabbits from rodentpro and give the whole thing to the dog. But, since it would be too expensive for me to do that, I went this way:

Day 1 - Fasting (no food, not even treats, just water)
Day 2 - Went with chicken first because I couldn't find whole rabbits that I don't have to butcher myself (my initial preference). So I bought one whole chicken that had the innards put in a bag inside it per dog. Got it from Wal-mart. I chopped it up into quarters and I gave one leg quarter to each EB(amounted to less than a pound). I gave the bichon just one drumstick.
Day 3 - Fed another leg.
Day 4 - fed one breast
Day 5 - fed the other breast
Day 6 - fed the rest of the chicken - wings neck, innards.
Day 7 - fast

Did the same thing the next week except now they get 1.8 lbs worth of chicken the bichon gets .45 lbs per day but no more fasting on Day 7.

3rd week I added beef chunks. So they get one leg quarter or one chicken breast or the rest of the chicken (like week 1) and then topped with beef chunks to make 1.8 lbs. By this time, the dog's poop was turning white so I reduced the bone.

4th week I replaced beef chunks with pork chunks and replaced chicken bone with pork butt bones.

5th week I replaced pork chunks with whiting fish.

6th week I replaced chicken with turkey and replaced fish with beef.

7th week - I balanced the liver and secreting organs to make their percentages of 5% each. So, in the 1.8 pounds, I had 1.5 ounces of beef liver and 1.5 ounces of beef kidney per day (I fed little pieces of organs daily because when I gave them a whole chunk of liver on day 1, they went cannon butt on me)

8th week - I started gorging and fasting... they would gorge on Saturday (3 lbs of food) and fast on Sunday. Then I increased it the next week to 4 lbs of food and fast on Sunday. Then I increased it the next week to 5 lbs of food and fast Sunday and Monday.

After that - I can mix everything up depending on what's on sale in the local meat shop. They gorge and fast in the same manner. If I get meat that's spoiling in my meat-for-humans freezer, they get to gorge on it.

And now for pictures!!!

The not-for-human-consumption freezer:
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l...psa743eb72.jpg

Bullie:
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l...1312688721.jpg

Angus:
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps2a2c32a4.jpg

Gizmo:
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l...1312312311.jpg

When I was researching PMR diet, one of my big concerns was how to contain the mess. A lot of people suggested using a towel/blanket or feeding outside. I decided to attempt training the dogs to eat over the bowl/placemat. I'm really very happy with the results. I'm not the trainer in my house. I'm actually the wimp - my husband is the trainer. But, he's been so busy lately that he hasn't found time to do anything with the dogs so I attempted to train the dogs myself. I am going to take a moment to pat myself on the back because I still can't believe I did it! With 2 English Bulldogs for that matter (known for resource guarding). And on PMR which is a high-valued resource that a lot of dogs get territorial with.

So, presenting today's dinner... gone in 2 minutes and 30 seconds...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guUzPgPpemk

Alright, you guys have convinced me to at least give raw a shot. I just wish I had a diet plan tailored to my 20 lb dog.

My big question is...where would I get my supply?? Where do you guys buy all your meat?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anya

Alright, you guys have convinced me to at least give raw a shot. I just wish I had a diet plan tailored to my 20 lb dog.

My big question is...where would I get my supply?? Where do you guys buy all your meat?

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I really think anywhere you'd buy meat would be ok. I don't think the dogs need anything more special. The key is to buy it in bulk to save money. You might be able to get deals from a local butcher if they have certain cuts that are cheap or undesirable to sell to people...? Idk, i'm still learning myself. Someone else could help more.

My dog is very old and most likely getting put down pretty soon. I, and my family, are 100% dog lovers so im sure that we'll be looking for a puppy pretty soon after Mystic goes. I've already been researching raw diets because that's definitely the direction i'd like to go with this dog. Between seeing Coleslaw's, Satomi's and Pookie's dogs i was 100% convinced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anya

Alright, you guys have convinced me to at least give raw a shot. I just wish I had a diet plan tailored to my 20 lb dog.

My big question is...where would I get my supply?? Where do you guys buy all your meat?

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Anya, your first decision is whether you'd go with PMR or BARF (okay, PMR is BARF without veggies so that was a misnomer).

I went with PMR (just made more sense to me) but BARF also makes sense so just read up on it to see which you prefer.

Now, to tailor PMR to your 20lb dog, your first question is - does he have currently health issues that requires a special diet? If no then you can either go with whole prey (your dog is small enough to eat a big rat or a couple quails or a rabbit - if you get your snake food frozen you can check to see if your frozen snake food source offers different prey other than rat). Or you can go with rule of thumb - 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other organs like I mentioned in a previous post spread out over time.

So then you start off with 3% of your dog's body weight as a daily serving. So, 3% of 20 lbs is 9.6 ounces... or 10 ounces to round off... per day. Then you adjust up or down depending on how your dog responds. So, if you got a big rabbit, split the rabbit into 10 ounce servings to feed the dog per day. Yes, the whole rabbit. Okay okay, I'm too urbanized, I actually take out the pelt (gets too messy!) and the intestines (I trust my source but I just want this additional step for my piece of mind regarding parasites) and cut out the gal bladder (because someone told me they fed their dog rabbit and they bit off the gal bladder and the dog stopped eating... of course, this is only ONE dog that I've heard this from so this is another one of those my piece of mind not the dog's).

Now when your dog gets to be a pro at it, you can just give the dog the whole rabbit let him munch as much as he can eat in one sitting (my dogs can devour an entire rabbit pretty quick), save the rest of the rabbit for the next day or if he ate a lot (gorging), you can skip a couple days before you feed him another one. Yep. Really as easy as dropping a rat in a snake's enclosure. That's one of the reasons I didn't bother with BARF - no pureeing of veggies involved.

And then... for variety... you need at least 3 types of prey sources: chicken, turkey, quail, rabbit, cow, pig, fish, rat, etc.

So, where do I buy stuff? I buy frozen rabbits and quail and chicken from the reptile store. They feed this to their giants and monitor. I buy the rest from the meat shop because they have better bulk deals than the grocery. I can buy 60lbs of beef hearts for 99 cents a pound and 30lbs of liver or 30 lbs of kidney for $1.19/lb and $30 for a 10lb package of whiting fish. And then they have deals like $1.29/pound on family pack pork butts or shoulders. By the way, I use pork shoulders bones as treats because it takes them all day to eat it and then they leave a big chunk behind.

Try it! Your dog will love it!

See, I find it much easier to explain PMR to snake people. I tell my non-reptile-loving friends about giving my dog a rat or a rabbit and they're like... EEEEEWWW!

Uhm hello... give the dog a bone???