Is Nix necessary?

I am treating my BP's for mites with provent-a-mite. They are in a rack system at this time. I have replaced their old bedding with fresh as well as sanitized the bins with F10. Is it necessary to treat the snakes with Nix? Or will Provent-A-Mite be enough? I don't like the idea of covering my animals with poison. :confusd:

I've only used PAM as a preventative and never had issues. Honestly I will never use Nix: PAM does what it's made for and it works. I believe Reptile Relief is recommended for treating snakes that have mites (ie treating the actual snake while PAM treats the enclosure).

We didn't use nix. We treated the enclosures with PAM and did one treat with reptile relief. We used paper towels treated with PAM and changed them out every three days for about 1-2 weeks.

To treat the actual snake (in addition to treating its environment with PAM,) you can do a Dawn dishsoap/water bath. Get a tub that your snake will fit in.. put a few inches of water in so that it is nice and soapy with bubbles floating.. place the snake in and monitor Closely to be sure that it will not drown.. the mites come off of the snake and can be seen in the water and soap foam. You don't want to use water that is too hot nor cold; water that's the temp of your water dish in its tank, or slightly warmer, will do. What feels warm to us, can be too hot for them; water the same temp as that in its tank would be no worse than the snake soaking in its waterbowl (which they are wont to do when they have mites.) Rinse snake in clean water afterward, and towel him/her off.

Congrats for using PAMite; it is a wonderful product! I never remember spraying it right onto the snake at all; more like into the cage; follow directions closely.

i used nix and that worked the best for me. they were on paper towel and everything. reptile relief just would not do it for me. the nix took care of it.

now remind you i did a galon of distilled water with one 2 oz bottle of nix.

I've had the most success using paper towels while treating for mites (because you can easily see them). F10 the enclosure (as you've already done) and treat the paper towels with a light spray of PAM. Let it dry. Put snake back in. Make sure you don't spray the water bowls with PAM. Treat again in 2 weeks. No more mites. :)

When I get new snakes I treat the animal with Reptile Relief and the quarantine cage with PAM. I repeat this in 2-3 weeks. This seems to work well. I would use newspaper or paper towel. White paper towel is best because it's easier to spot mites.

I have treated a number of collections and soap was the last thing I would use on a snake.
PAM the area, PAM the tub lightly, PAM the paper towels and that's it.
I see no need to use anything beyond that.
Reptile relief, soap, oils, all unnecessary things to do to get rid of mites imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I have treated a number of collections and soap was the last thing I would use on a snake.
PAM the area, PAM the tub lightly, PAM the paper towels and that's it.
I see no need to use anything beyond that.
Reptile relief, soap, oils, all unnecessary things to do to get rid of mites imo.

---

Unless it is illegal to use in your area ... Like Canada, Europe, Australia and some US states... The list is growing. All pesticides should be used exactly as the instructions say. Making up instructions and testing them on your animals is likely not a good idea. Never forget you are dealing with a toxic chemical that can, will, and has, poisoned snakes, follow all instructions exactly.

x2 about the paper towels as a substrate. Plain white ones will really allow you to see the mites better.
I never really saw the need for reptile relief, with doing the baths.

And yes; PAmite should always be used only as directed. I would never, ever spray it onto a snake.

Yes make sure you follow all the directions. The ones that keep you safe as well! Only in a well ventilated space, don't get it on your skin or cloths. Make sure pets (cats especially) and children are not around during or after application.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I have treated a number of collections and soap was the last thing I would use on a snake.PAM the area, PAM the tub lightly, PAM the paper towels and that's it.I see no need to use anything beyond that.Reptile relief, soap, oils, all unnecessary things to do to get rid of mites imo.

---

Don't know what happened to my reply. Anyway, What SnakeRkewl wrote IS the instructions for PAM. I didn't see anyone suggesting an off label use.

What is wrong with using Dawn? (directed at a past post.) I never had any troubles with it. I see nothing wrong with a Dawn bath.. I have done this when snakes had messy bowel movements all over their cages, as well. Don't see the danger, or the need for any snake-oil treatments like Reptile Relief on a snake.

Here are a few respectful breeders and websites who advise for the Dawn treatment. This is not something that I am just making up. I always did this while removing the snake to treat the enclosure with Provent-A-Mite. It is satisfying to see the dead mites floating in the water. The water forces them out of the snake's skin, whereas a topical spray could possibly miss some of the mites, too.

http://www.summitreptiles.com/id109.html

http://www.repticzone.com/forums/Boa...s/2148610.html

http://www.allboas.com/mites.php

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by treeboa

Don't know what happened to my reply. Anyway, What SnakeRkewl wrote IS the instructions for PAM. I didn't see anyone suggesting an off label use.

---

The directions for using nix or whatever head lice brand you use are the same.

Quote:

---

Ginevive
What is wrong with using Dawn? (directed at a past post.) I never had any troubles with it.

---

It doesn't improve your chances of the mites dying, treat properly,
put snake into treated tub/enclosure and let the treatment work, that is all that you need to do.

I didn't say it would harm them in any way, but I do disagree with anything put on the snake like oils, soaps, reptile relief, etc because it is unnecessary.

Okay; you do it your way. If I should ever have the misfortune of mites again, I will do it my way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by treeboa

Don't know what happened to my reply. Anyway, What SnakeRkewl wrote IS the instructions for PAM. I didn't see anyone suggesting an off label use.

---

From the videos people post and the written descriptions few seem to use it as directed. Avoid skin contact and contact with clothes. Tyvek suit? Gloves at least. "Vacate rooms after treatment and ventilate before reoccupying." From the EPA and label, exhaust fans? Open windows? Usual recommendations is 30-45 min how many do this? Remove all animals from vapor area, what 20 feet more if there is a fan. These things are on the label few speak of removing every animal from a snake room and venting the space after used. Gloves use? I hate the oh it is EPA approved so it is safe attitude that exists. I have watched a chemical product go from it is safe, to use with caution, to wear safety gear, to professional use only, to restricted use and then full banned. Pam is in the restricted heading to a full ban and still it is being treated like it is the baking product that shares its acronym.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What are you talking about? I don't even know what you are trying to say. The active ingredient in PAM is the same as in NIX, the shampoo for lice that mothers put on their small children's heads to treat lice. It's been used for decades and continues to be what doctors recommend for lice. To listen to you if's mustard gas or ricin or something. What would you have everyone do use olive oil? The Dawn soap (which is pretty much the same as Reptile relief by the way, they both smother the mites without chemicals) and olive oil treatments are fine to treat the mites on the snake, but if used alone you will never get rid of the mites. Cleaning with bleach does absolutely nothing to get rid of the mites either. The way snakesRkewl wrote is EXACTLY the directions from the manufacturer and that's the way everybody here has said to use it.

Also, you are right that it has sickened and killed some snakes. Every case I've heard of though was from people spraying PAM on a cloth and wiping down their snake or they sprayed the cage and immediately put the snake back in. I've not heard of it harming a snake when used as directed. I think some people think the PAM on a cloth thing is safe because PAM was sprayed directly on Sulcata and Leopard tortoise imports to rid them of the Heartwater tick. Just because it's safe to put on a tortoise doesn't mean it's safe to put directly on a snake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

Unless it is illegal to use in your area ... Like Canada, Europe, Australia and some US states... The list is growing. All pesticides should be used exactly as the instructions say. Making up instructions and testing them on your animals is likely not a good idea. Never forget you are dealing with a toxic chemical that can, will, and has, poisoned snakes, follow all instructions exactly.

---

When I contacted the sellers of PAM, they said they can ship to Canada. So it's illegal?

To the best of my knowledge it is restricted meaning you need a licence for it. It is not the manufacturers responsibility to follow local laws when the local zoo tried to bring it in it was impounded at the border. Many choose to try, sometimes it passes through unchecked that doesn't make it legal. Ask if it is impounded at the border if they will give a full refund.

treeboa did you never read the label? This is what I am taking about the instructions,

Before spraying, remove amphibians, water and any desirable or food arachnids or insects from the vicinity. Vapours will kill spiders and insects. Do not use within the vicinity of any arachnids or amphibians. Do not use until these specimens are removed to another location. Do not apply to heating devices or heating device covers. Do not allow reptile to breath vapors, Do not use in bare cages without substrate. Treated substrate/enclosure will kill any feed insects introduced for at least 2 weeks. Treat or feed any insectivores in a separate cage. Do not spray directly inion eyes, mouth or genitalia of pats. For direct application to tortoises only. Do not apply directly on snakes, lizards or
other reptiles.

PRECAUTIONARY STATEMENTS
HAZARDS TO HUMANS & DOMESTIC ANIMALS
CAUTION
Harmful if absorbed through skin. Causes moderate eye irritation. Avoid comact with skin, eyes or clothing. Wash thoroughly with soap and water after handling and before eating, drinking, chewing gum, or using tobacco. Vacate rooms after treatment and ventilate before reoccupying. Avoid contamination of f~d and foodstuffs. Do not allow
children or pets to contact treated areas until surfaces are dry..
FIRSTAID: Ifon skin orclothing: .Takeoffcontaminated clothing.•Rlnse skin immediately with plentyofwaterfor 15-20 minutes.•Call a poison control center or doctor for treatment advice.
If In eyes: .Hold eye open and rinse slowly and gently with water for 15-20 minutes.•Remove contact lenses, if present, after the first 5 minutes then continue rinsing eye. •Call a poison control center or doctor for treatment advice.

Shampoo and pressurized areosol are not the same at all ingredients are the same the delivery different this alters the route of exposure and the hazards.

I am only suggesting to follow every precaution.

"Harmful if absorbed through skin" = wear gloves

"Avoid comact with skin, eyes or clothing." = tyvek? non absorbent, disposable, cheap. Might not be a bad idea.

"Vacate rooms after treatment and ventilate before reoccupying" = open window and put a fan in it for 30-45 min (10 air changes apx from general ventilation standards)

Do not allow reptile to breath vapours = remove all reptiles from the surrounding area where it is being sprayed. As it is vapours and they spread fast that is a large area fans allow faster and larger spreading so increased space. The safest would remove all the reptiles from the area.

This is straight from the label registered with the EPA. I am suggesting only what is on the label and instructions and it not be treated with such a casual attitude. It is being studied as a carcinogen (tests are in progress) and as an endocrine suppressor as well. The circumstantial evidence is adding up. I am advocating following the label as it sits nothing more. I get this same argument every time as well from people advocating something different than the label states.

Read the label and follow it exactly. Don't get it on your skin or cloths, protect all reptiles from breathing the vapours, leave the space and ventilate it (outside not into the house)

If we can't have PAM, then what do we use? I don't like the idea of NIX?

I would look into the laws on an actual government website. I know from taxidermy that asking around with regular people can lead to misinformation, since there are so many specific laws out there. Maybe look into your local phone# for the.. DEA.. not sure who would have the information there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

Unless it is illegal to use in your area ... Like Canada, Europe, Australia and some US states... The list is growing. All pesticides should be used exactly as the instructions say. Making up instructions and testing them on your animals is likely not a good idea. Never forget you are dealing with a toxic chemical that can, will, and has, poisoned snakes, follow all instructions exactly.

---

It cannot be sold here in Canada because there is no French labeling on the bottle.

At least I believe that's the reason. If so, and if the manufacturer were willing to look into this and make a French label, they would open up a huge market! That stuff is an absolute PITA to get here!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by treeboa

What are you talking about? I don't even know what you are trying to say. The active ingredient in PAM is the same as in NIX

---

NOPE.

A box of Kleenex is tissue, but not all tissue is Kleenex.

A bottle of Pantene is shampoo, but not all shampoo is Pantene.

Permethrin is a CLASS of pesticides. It is a broad name that includes many different formulations. So saying it has the same active ingredient is untrue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

NOPE.

A box of Kleenex is tissue, but not all tissue is Kleenex.

A bottle of Pantene is shampoo, but not all shampoo is Pantene.

Permethrin is a CLASS of pesticides. It is a broad name that includes many different formulations. So saying it has the same active ingredient is untrue.

---

PAM is the same formulation as Sawyer's clothing spray that is sold in REI stores for a fraction of the price. They are both manufactured by Coulston.

Sawyers:
http://www.rei.com/product/768970/sa...mp-spray-24-oz

24 oz for $16.00.

Difference is PAM runs about $3.00 + an ounce (depending on where you buy it) and you can pick Sawyers up at your local REI for $1.00/ounce.

The 24 oz formulation is a manual pump and works just as well. How do I know? I use it.

I spoke to Coulston and they said they only difference between the aerosol and the hand pump is the propellant. So I buy my Coulston insecticide for less than a dollar per ounce.

This info has been tossed back and forth for years. The idea that any permethrin product is safe is flawed. Whether it's Nix or Rid or Sawyer's or PAM - it's all potentially lethal. The difference with PAM is that you are getting a set of instructions specific to the use around reptiles and the "ahem" piece of mind that it was tested around reptiles. People have had health issues using PAM around snakes - it needs to be used with extreme caution.

Hope that helps.

I might worry if it wasn't for the fact that I've been using it for the last ten years with no problem and so has thousands of others in the US. The fog you talk about is very localized and dissipates very quickly. The caution with amphibians and arachnids is because they are hyper-sensitive to toxins. And bleach, bathroom cleaner, and many other things have skin contact warnings and people use them every day. I don't see any hysterical posts about them.

Hmm change of tune there now it is ok not to follow the instructions. I am not hysterical I am saying it is toxic and follow the instructions. For the record bleach is not a suspected human Carcenogen but it still requires respect two years ago a student locally was killed by a hazardous decomposition of household bleach. Chlorine gas is bad for you. All chemicals are dangerous if not used as directed.

Use the product with the respect it deserves and follow the instructions. I am sorry if that makes more work for you. I have been mixing chemicals for 25 years. I wish 20 years ago I was as careful as I am today.

In the 40s it was thought mercury might be bad for you. My dad remembers being given large balls of mercury to play with at the dentist. Now we know Minamata disease is no joke. 'Suspected' should be enough to treat it as known.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tho I've never had mites... I would suggest to treat with PAM...
As for getting those suckers off your snake... Key word of advice, mites can be drowned :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

Hmm change of tune there now it is ok not to follow the instructions. I am not hysterical I am saying it is toxic and follow the instructions. For the record bleach is not a suspected human Carcenogen but it still requires respect two years ago a student locally was killed by a hazardous decomposition of household bleach. Chlorine gas is bad for you. All chemicals are dangerous if not used as directed.

---

Agreed, even a simple mixture of ammonia and bleach creates toxic fumes that can put a grown man down... Permanently!!!

Nope no change of tune. I do use it as the package says. What I am saying is your suggestions on how to follow the directions are based on conjecture and are extreme (Tyvek? Really? How about a full biohazard suit?). You have never used it or seen it used. Actually I never meant to sound like it's harmless, just no more harmful than things we use every day. I agree it should be respected. As for the OPer's question, no it's not necessary to treat the snake if you are using PAM. My thinking is that treating the snake (Dawn soak or Reptile Relief, not NIX and NEVER PAM) probably gives it some immediate relief instead of waiting for the mites to crawl off and be killed by the PAM residue. It has to be uncomfortable to have them sucking their blood.

I am trained to teach chemical safety, and do. I have read the instructions and the msds sheets from Coulston. That is enough, I don't need to use it past this, all the needed information is there. Regular use of a chemical doesn't mean you can use if correctly. The fact that someone doesn't have any symptoms showing after ten years doesn't mean they are free and clear. Cancer is a sneaky disorder.

WHY TAKE RISKS ?

It is a hazard from skin absorption, simple precautions are easy.

Gloves to be sure, eye shields would be recommended (always are for all chemicals), if you get any on your clothes it would be absorbed to your skin, so tyvek or waterproof tyvek 'sleeves' would likely be fine too.

All I have suggested is treat it as toxic. Plan for the worst, if it gets on your skin you will get cancer, deformaties, and sexual development problems. This simple change of attitude will keep the user safe.


Overkill maybe... maybe not. I have watched lots of chemicals start as non toxic and be reclassified and reclassified as end users have higher and higher amounts of the same health issue. Permethrin is under the microscope now there are possibilities of cancer and of endocrine issues. It is recommended not to be used around children as phenols long have been known as having this issue. The side effect of feminization of men is enough for me to treat all endocrine effecting chemicals with caution.


On a side note is is so odd to watch the arguments about pine/cedar and then see the same people suggest regular preventative treatments with P-A-M. Why not use cedar? As it has less phenols than what they are already using. 3-Phenoxybenzyl alcohol breaks down to 3,4-Dihydroxybenzoate and phenol.

Personally I avoid phenols and phenol compounds full stop. I don't think using things rich in phenols is a good idea around reptiles, cedar is not a healthy product for reptiles and using products that have the same toxic compounds as it seem to fall under that same caution.

I have never had mites in my personal collection and in over 200 rescues only one had mites. We used hard work method of treatment. Isolation with diatomaceous earth and regular cleanings of the isolation tub and snake soaking with a drop of soap. After the third day, no mites or mite eggs could be seen we continued this for a number of times further but never saw another mite after the third day. Isolation was maintained for 30 days and quarantine until a forever home was found.

I believe a collection should be mite free. This means the introduction of new snakes is the only vector of infestation so treatment of a single animal or small numbers is not hard with the traditional methods. If a whole collection is infested it should stand as a warning that the quarantine methods have failed completely. There should be no need for 'preventative' treatments if PAM works as well as everybody claims.