het clown?

I know this has been asked before but I never seen anyone actually proof a actually answer...my question is in morphs lets say a lesser, is there a for sure way to tell a lesser is a het clown before you breed it....I know the for sure way is to breed it but I was just curious as I noticed het albino morphs look different than the regular morph...

Yea, if one of the parents was a clown.

That stuff is top secret ;)

I know you can tell if one of the parents are clown...that's obvious...I'm talking about if you don't know if they actually did breed a clown to it...if you read the question I asked is there a visual difference....like the het albino and some other hets do to change the color and slightly the pattern..but I do know some claim they can point out the hets in a possible het clutch 9 times out of 10..so there has to be something they see and is it with all clutches they see it or is it in thier clutches only as it could be limited to what they are breeding does it in their pairing only...

Your search feature is your best friend, it can answer your questions, your not the first to ask ...

Yeah this question has been asked many many many many times. Pieds and clowns have some markers although they are NOT a guarantee. Albinos, ghosts, and other recessive genes do NOT have markers, although their offspring can look different. There is no real way to 100% guarantee a het by looking. Many normals have het pied markers and I have seen 100% proven het pieds have no track markers at all. So its just not a good tell all. But if you do a search you will find a thread with pictures showing that het clowns do have subtle markers, head stamp, flames, pattern, etc that you can often tell they are hets. But again, some normals have crazy head stamps, flames, etc as well.

I have 2 het clowns, aside from the head stamps both loo0k 100% as normal as can be. :)

Here go!

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...wn+yellowbelly

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ight=het+clown

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Yea, if one of the parents was a clown.

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and that one parent being the female that's visual. with a male clown in the breeding, it's not 100%

Het. Clowns *usually* look very different.
The clown gene usually brightens and cleans up some morph hets. And sometimes they have funky patterning. (larger eyes spots in the alien head or prominent dorsal markings)

My pastel het clown and her brother are the brightest pastels I've ever seen.

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Originally Posted by don15681

and that one parent being the female that's visual. with a male clown in the breeding, it's not 100%

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What??? :weirdface

If EITHER parent is visual all offspring are 100% hets.......

I've found pied and hypo het markers to be pretty reliable proving quite a few times for me. Just starting with my first possible het clown but I really like his look. Maybe in another 10 years I can comment on the co-dominant tendencies of the clown gene.

It's an ongoing subject of debate. Many people say that there are certain 'tells' or traits to see if a specific animal can be het for one mutation or another. I personally don't put much stock in it. I can find many of the same tells in my group of normals which I know for a fact are completely normal. However there are enough people out there that claim that they can pick out the hets from a group of normals that there may be something to it but I prefer not to trust my money to someone else's guesses no matter how educated they believe those guesses to be.

Why is it such a stretch for people to believe that markers are there for a reason.
Every pairing is going to alter the outcome with both sets of genetics.
The two traits TOGETHER make up the new snake, pastel + normal genes or het clown + normal gene.
Is it really that hard for people to see that the het traits alter the normal gene just as a pastel does, or any other incomplete dominant(heterozygous) trait does?

They are all heterozygous traits after all.

Agreed with Jerry.
100%

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Originally Posted by tikigator

What??? :weirdface

If EITHER parent is visual all offspring are 100% hets.......

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nope. the only SURE way is the female being the visual with any recessive. with a visual male most likely the offspring will carry the gene, but there are things that can go wrong so I wouldn't say it's 100% for sure.

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Originally Posted by tikigator

What??? :weirdface

If EITHER parent is visual all offspring are 100% hets.......

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Theoretically, yes.
But not always the case. Retained sperm from a previous season should also be taken into account if the female is not visual.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Theoretically, yes.
But not always the case. Retained sperm from a previous season should also be taken into account if the female is not visual.

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Well I was not getting into poor breeding practices I was talking about offspring with one "parent" being visual (for sake of keeping it simple let's say 2 virgin snakes) the offspring WILL be 100% het if either of the parents are visual. It does not matter which was the visual. That was my point.

People breeding multiple males or females multiple times without a clutch being laid is an entirely different issue. Like a friend of mine who bred his normal to a calico a dozen times and got an entire clutch of pinstripes.....yep....... ;)

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Why is it such a stretch for people to believe that markers are there for a reason.
Every pairing is going to alter the outcome with both sets of genetics.

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I think its a stretch because not all markers prove to be true. And not all hets have them. Like I said before I have seen 100% het pieds prove with zero markers and I owned a 100% normal that had perfect het pied track markers and a head stamp! They just aren't accurate that's all. If I gave you a clutch of 8 50% het clowns do you feel confident you could pick out the hets based on markers? Same with a clutch of 50% het pieds? I could pick out the ones with markers but I wouldn't put money on them proving or the ones I didn't pick not proving.

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Originally Posted by tikigator

If I gave you a clutch of 8 50% het clowns do you feel confident you could pick out the hets based on markers? Same with a clutch of 50% het pieds? I could pick out the ones with markers but I wouldn't put money on them proving or the ones I didn't pick not proving.

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So far I've proven four possible het pied females and two possible het males all picked based on the markers and most of them where only 25% chance hets. I have a 12.5% chance het pied female with excellent markers that I have no doubt will prove as soon as I get eggs from her.

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Originally Posted by tikigator

If I gave you a clutch of 8 50% het clowns do you feel confident you could pick out the hets based on markers? Same with a clutch of 50% het pieds? I could pick out the ones with markers but I wouldn't put money on them proving or the ones I didn't pick not proving.

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I have not produced pieds so no I don't think I could but give me a few years of producing them and I bet I'd get pretty good at identifying them.
I have produced a good number of het clowns, yes I believe I could accurately pull out the true hets from the non hets and have clutches of pos het clowns coming that I plan on sharing.

I'm working with the albino gene a lot this season and last season. You can really see what the het albino gene does to the normal. I've also seen what it does to spider and Mojave. It tends to throw higher white spiders and super light mojaves. When I have some time Tomorrow I'll post some pic's. I do believe that the "het" gene can sometimes manifest its-self but I do agree that they markers arent 100% accurate. If you know the animals and bred them you stand a higher chance of guessing whats what.

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Originally Posted by BP2

I'm working with the albino gene a lot this season and last season. You can really see what the het albino gene does to the normal. I've also seen what it does to spider and Mojave. It tends to throw higher white spiders and super light mojaves. When I have some time Tomorrow I'll post some pic's. I do believe that the "het" gene can sometimes manifest its-self but I do agree that they markers arent 100% accurate. If you know the animals and bred them you stand a higher chance of guessing whats what.

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That is really interesting. I would have thought that the albino gene would make a het darker.
Because higher the albino contrast, darker the normal het would be. Just like how the highest contrast albinos are black pastel albinos.
I'm really surprised Mojave hets are light.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I have not produced pieds so no I don't think I could but give me a few years of producing them and I bet I'd get pretty good at identifying them.
I have produced a good number of het clowns, yes I believe I could accurately pull out the true hets from the non hets and have clutches of pos het clowns coming that I plan on sharing.

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Understood. And I guess in a clutch where u know some are hets and some are not would be easier to compare them all. But I guess what the OP is asking and my lack of confidence in markers is a single animal.....if someone posts a pic of a 50% het clown you could still ID if that snake is het? I dunno. If you can you are amazing.:bow:

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Originally Posted by tikigator

Understood. And I guess in a clutch where u know some are hets and some are not would be easier to compare them all. But I guess what the OP is asking and my lack of confidence in markers is a single animal.....if someone posts a pic of a 50% het clown you could still ID if that snake is het? I dunno. If you can you are amazing.:bow:

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The markers are best used in a clutch situation.
I agree a person asking if a single snake is or isn't a het is a lot harder.

Adding the albino gene to black pastel seemed to make it darker and the het albino's I have had and produced seemed to be pretty dark but I haven't made enough to say that for a fact.
Albino markers are easy on a normal but gets much more difficult in morphs.

I have a pinstripe het alnino male and he is brighter and his dorsal stripe is a little different which I find common in others I seen(but some normal pinstripes can have the same stripe so im not saying its a sure sign)..and a cinny het albino female...shes not bright but does look different..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tikigator

Well I was not getting into poor breeding practices I was talking about offspring with one "parent" being visual (for sake of keeping it simple let's say 2 virgin snakes) the offspring WILL be 100% het if either of the parents are visual. It does not matter which was the visual. That was my point.

People breeding multiple males or females multiple times without a clutch being laid is an entirely different issue. Like a friend of mine who bred his normal to a calico a dozen times and got an entire clutch of pinstripes.....yep....... ;)

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you still have a chance for partenogenesis and gynogenesis, so I still disagree. yes this is rare but happens and more so in reptiles.

a friend of mine who's also a ball python breeder had a clutch last year. the female was a normal. he raise her up to breeding size, her first year breeding, she was breed to a killerbee. had a clutch with hatchlings turning out as for the breeding. next year he breed it to a super emperor pin, again he got what he was breeding for. last year he breed it to a super pastel champagne and got all normal females. the clutch size was 4 or 5 I'll have to ask him again on that part. he doesn't have any males that are recessive and he keeps very good records on his snakes. being the male didn't past on any of his genes and they all got them for the female. which is one reason they all was females too.
I email tracy barker from vpi and she also stated that the only way to be totally sure that a hatchling is recessive is if the female in the breeding is the visual. yes many breeders sells 100% hets from breeding a visual male. and most likely they are.

I also know another breeder who's female have a clutch of eggs, the next year he breed her to another male and she again had a clutch. and the sire of this clutch was the first male, she retained sperm even after having a clutch between the 2 breedings.

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Originally Posted by don15681

you still have a chance for partenogenesis and gynogenesis, so I still disagree. yes this is rare but happens and more so in reptiles.

a friend of mine who's also a ball python breeder had a clutch last year. the female was a normal. he raise her up to breeding size, her first year breeding, she was breed to a killerbee. had a clutch with hatchlings turning out as for the breeding. next year he breed it to a super emperor pin, again he got what he was breeding for. last year he breed it to a super pastel champagne and got all normal females. the clutch size was 4 or 5 I'll have to ask him again on that part. he doesn't have any males that are recessive and he keeps very good records on his snakes. being the male didn't past on any of his genes and they all got them for the female. which is one reason they all was females too.
I email tracy barker from vpi and she also stated that the only way to be totally sure that a hatchling is recessive is if the female in the breeding is the visual. yes many breeders sells 100% hets from breeding a visual male. and most likely they are.

I also know another breeder who's female have a clutch of eggs, the next year he breed her to another male and she again had a clutch. and the sire of this clutch was the first male, she retained sperm even after having a clutch between the 2 breedings.

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"100% het recessive"

I think parthenogenesis might be fairly common in ball pythons. We really need a commercial paternity test. They have them for most domestic animals and some birds and even fish.

I don't know of any markers for het albino but pied and hypo seem fairly co-dominant. I've heard rumors on clown but doesn't sound to be nearly as consistent as pied.