odd spider

here is a spider i got that was from a spider to normal breeding...l never seen a spider like this before...let me know your opinionhttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8000d224.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...psd84ad8ea.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0fe6ff66.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...psb0ca78f4.jpg

Well, it's not a spider so that's why it's not like any spider you've ever seen. :p

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Hate to break it to you but that's not a spider. Normal IMO.

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Just to be safe, a spider x normal pairing has a 50 percent chance of throwing spiders. As well as a 50 percent chance to throw normals. It is not a dominant gene, you can get normals with this pairing.

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It is a spider....it has the spider markings head,white speckling on its side and it has a mild case of the wobble....I bought it from a reputable breeder in Florida...its just a very odd spider..unless you can show me pics of a normal with those traits.

I'll recuse myself from this thread, hope you didn't get over charged for a normal.

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I think it's a normal with an insane pattern... It has the alien heads that a normal has but it has a spider stripe and webbing down the back.. I think it's a normal.

Not a spider IMO. Head pattern is not a spider, and the white scales near the bottom of the pattern is not a spider. My normal has white outlining the bottom of her pattern too.

Take note of these spiders heads...then look at yours again
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/spider/

I would be interested to know what "reputable breeder" sold this as a spider?

It does have a head stamp, but spiders have much more than just a slight stamp...

Ain't a spider but I like the blushing and white sides.

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Originally Posted by Mrhappytreats4u

It is a spider....it has the spider markings head,white speckling on its side and it has a mild case of the wobble....I bought it from a reputable breeder in Florida...its just a very odd spider..unless you can show me pics of a normal with those traits.

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The head pattern doesn't look anything like any Spider I've seen, white speckling can be found on TONS of morphs (normals included) and wobble isn't exclusive to the Spider gene. It can even be caused by outside things, like nerve damage or birth defects.

Just saying my :2cent:...

Wow, really? Not a spider?

I clearly see spider. More than likely another gene may have affected its appearance.

I've seen spider combos look nothing like spiders.

These both have spider in it. Mind blown!

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psce450601.jpg

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Wow, really? Not a spider?

I clearly see spider. More than likely another gene may have affected its appearance.

I've seen spider combos look nothing like spiders.

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Can't tell if sarcasm... Or being serious...... :confusd:

But I don't see spider.. Just a really cool pattern.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

These both have spider in it. Mind blown!

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psce450601.jpg

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Btw those snakes I posted are spider blackhead ringer gene and blackhead spider red gene.

I just want people to look outside the box sometimes. I'm so blown away there was already a group of folks that ruled this a normal. A normal with white specks on the sides.. Spider head pattern.

I've seen a few spiders even lower expression than this prove to make spiders. I guess I've seen too many snakes.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Btw those snakes I posted are spider blackhead ringer gene and blackhead spider red gene.

I just want people to look outside the box sometimes. I'm so blown away there was already a group of folks that ruled this a normal. A normal with white specks on the sides.. Spider head pattern.

I've seen a few spiders even lower expression than this prove to make spiders. I guess I've seen too many snakes.

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I guess you learn something new every day. In all honestly it seemed like you were trying to make the OP feel stupid. I guess in reality You can't always trust a book by its cover,

Thanks for sharing a awesome pic BTW.

I'm really not seeing a spider

Looks like a crazy normal to me too honestly.

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looks normal :confusd: what the heck did it look like as a hatchling to make a "reputable" breeder label it as a spider?

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

More than likely another gene may have affected its appearance.

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OP said it was from a spiderXnormal pairing.

There's a couple specific markings that make me think that's a spider, albeit the lowest quality I've ever seen. That, or it's mixed with something, but since that's an unknown I'll just stick with my idea that it's a grade E spider. Maybe a pic of the belly might help?

I think it might just be a very very low quality spider. When I look for spiders, I look for very high white sides, no dots, and a nice bright gold colored spine.

This has almost none of these characteristics.

Ill jump on the "not a spider" bandwagon for sure

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/04/09/8ujy5y3y.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/04/09/adupumah.jpg

Both spiders, both belong to me. 2nd i produced and is het. Albino. the first is the seconds dad.

Yours has very normal coloration and no speckling on the sides. I would think it is possible for a baby to inherit pattern traits of the parent with ouch actually getting the gene.

I hope you didn't pay spider price for that snake. Even if it WERE a spider, it's definitely not worthy of breeding. Though I just think its a sorta funky normal

I love the "crazy looking normal" oxymoron in the ball python world. Maybe if its "crazy looking" maybe its not "normal". Every mutation was once a "crazy looking normal". Obviously there are normal ball pythons that take on a crazy appearance due to incubation or developmental problems, but it's still important to closely analyze what you are seeing that is "crazy looking" and determine what is the CAUSE. In this case it's the spider gene.

I've seen spider hets for other genes that greatly diminish the white and pattern. I've seen het tristripe really change the patterning on spiders. As for what is effecting this spider is uncertain, and yes it doesn't look like a great example, but I absolutely see the spider gene there. And for me its actually obvious.

I would say breeding trials are definitely a must with this one. If you breed to a straight normal and get Spider offspring...well...then that is a seriously low quality Spider, IMO. If you breed and get only Normals, then you may have been overcharged for a Normal. As much as I hate to say it...it really doesn't look like a Spider to me either, but I am definitely NOT an expert and could be seriously wrong. If it were me, I'd call that a Dinker possible Spider, because if it's not a Spider...that wacky pattern would be awesome if it were genetic. ;)

No white on the sides? I must be seeing things. Am I too closely analyzing this? Absolutely, that's why I'm really good at it too. Is this probably one of the lowest grade spiders, yes. But that does not change the fact it has the spider gene.

I go through 40,000 import ball pythons a year, so I see a lot of normals and morphs and everything in between. Show me a normal with white speckling in the pattern and I'd be interested. And I said "in the pattern". Not in the flames or outside the pattern. In the pattern, like a spider and calico do...
http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/...ps57e3c60a.jpg

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

I love the "crazy looking normal" oxymoron in the ball python world. Maybe if its "crazy looking" maybe its not "normal". Every mutation was once a "crazy looking normal". Obviously there are normal ball pythons that take on a crazy appearance due to incubation or developmental problems, but it's still important to closely analyze what you are seeing that is "crazy looking" and determine what is the CAUSE. In this case it's the spider gene.

I've seen spider hets for other genes that greatly diminish the white and pattern. I've seen het tristripe really change the patterning on spiders. As for what is effecting this spider is uncertain, and yes it doesn't look like a great example, but I absolutely see the spider gene there. And for me its actually obvious.

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Crazy looking is a nice way to say you have a normal, feel better about paying too much.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Crazy looking is a nice way to say you have a normal, feel better about paying too much.

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Heh I see what you're saying, but this is just an ugly spider. Because its low expression doesn't change the fact it's a spider is all I'm saying.

I would have probably throw this in my wholesale stock, but these days I'm wholeselling outstanding male spiders for $60.... Petco sells normals for $70, so it's almost like selling normals these days anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Heh I see what you're saying, but this is just an ugly spider. Because its low expression doesn't change the fact it's a spider is all I'm saying.

I would have probably throw this in my wholesale stock, but these days I'm wholeselling outstanding male spiders for $60.... Petco sells normals for $70, so it's almost like selling normals these days anyway.

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For me a breeding that threw spiders from the in question animal would be needed to change my mind. But, I'm a skeptic and question everything.

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Blackhead Spider... yes but your typical base morph Spider that most people think about when mentioned, no.

Not a spider. Hands down. No argument here. Why people are calling it a spider, I will never know. NONE of the spider markers are there. Wrong color, wrong pattern, wrong head.

Now if we are talking about it being a COMBO then maybe the spider gene are in there. Nothing I've seen can mess with the spider gene like the black head gene. Usually the spider gene in 2 gene animals, beats the pattern of the snake into submission. No questioning the spider gene being present. The black head seems to almost erase the spider gene. So maybe the "normal" is a black head/black headish morph.

In this particular case I think the "normal" parent to this snake needs to be shown. That's the only way we can bring this moot argument to a close. Please post a pic of the "normal" parent. Until that is posted, this snake is not a spider or spider combo.

Lastly, when did we start calling "dinkers" morphs BEFORE they were proven. At the very VERY least (yes even major leagues "spider" combos) its a normal until it pops out a baby spider when this was the only snake in the pairing with the spider gene present. When breeders start guessing what's in combos and selling them, we start getting into scams and lying. That's not something we need in this or any other hobby. Come on people have some integrity.

That is all.

I'd go with breeding trials, personally.

Maybe I just need a more experienced eye, but I'm still not seeing single gene spider. I've never seen a spider with alien heads like a normal, but I don't claim to be a morph expert by any means. I just calls it as I sees it.

I see what you mean about those 2-3 white scales, but is that really enough to say spider?
Do you honestly think that head stamp is reminiscent of a single gene spider?

Here are some pics of two of my normal girls, the others are currently "busy" ;)

Albeit they don't have 2-3 white scales higher up, they have white speckling creeping up in their pattern. Is this normal but the 2-3 white scales in the pattern spider indicators? (I'm not trying to be a jerk, I am honestly wondering Brent.)

Some of these are in the shade, some in direct sun, couldn't decide which showed the whites better...
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps55cfc7f7.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps972f9794.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps676bc01f.jpg
an indoor crappy pics...wiggle worm...
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...pscdb6b887.jpg

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Originally Posted by interloc

Not a spider. Hands down. No argument here. Why people are calling it a spider, I will never know. NONE of the spider markers are there. Wrong color, wrong pattern, wrong head.

Now if we are talking about it being a COMBO then maybe the spider gene are in there. Nothing I've seen can mess with the spider gene like the black head gene. Usually the spider gene in 2 gene animals, beats the pattern of the snake into submission. No questioning the spider gene being present. The black head seems to almost erase the spider gene. So maybe the "normal" is a black head/black headish morph.

In this particular case I think the "normal" parent to this snake needs to be shown. That's the only way we can bring this moot argument to a close. Please post a pic of the "normal" parent. Until that is posted, this snake is not a spider or spider combo.

Lastly, when did we start calling "dinkers" morphs BEFORE they were proven. At the very VERY least (yes even major leagues "spider" combos) its a normal until it pops out a baby spider when this was the only snake in the pairing with the spider gene present. When breeders start guessing what's in combos and selling them, we start getting into scams and lying. That's not something we need in this or any other hobby. Come on people have some integrity.

That is all.

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First, blackhead spiders have already proven to pop out spiders. Maybe, spiders and blackheads are allelic? Hmm, you wouldn't know anything about that would you? I have 3 generations of spider blackhead information that really nobody would know about besides 2 people.

Second, the snake the OP posted REALLY has spider in it. I chimed in to hopefully educate some folks that just because it doesn't look like YOUR spider or the spider's you have seen, there are some people who have seen spiders like this. If you want to disagree with me, that's fine.

Lastly, to question someone's "integrity" in the mix is unappropriate. I guess I shouldn't come on here and try to share what I know. I didn't sell this snake, I just came on here to say it was a spider based on my experience. Which you obviously know nothing about.

OP, please post future breedings of this snake and it's results. Should be interesting. I've seen some spider het tristripes that look pretty brutal on the spider scale. Typically making them solid, thick, blackback animals, with no white.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Maybe I just need a more experienced eye, but I'm still not seeing single gene spider. I've never seen a spider with alien heads like a normal, but I don't claim to be a morph expert by any means. I just calls it as I sees it.

I see what you mean about those 2-3 white scales, but is that really enough to say spider?
Do you honestly think that head stamp is reminiscent of a single gene spider?

Here are some pics of two of my normal girls, the others are currently "busy" ;)

Albeit they don't have 2-3 white scales higher up, they have white speckling creeping up in their pattern. Is this normal but the 2-3 white scales in the pattern spider indicators? (I'm not trying to be a jerk, I am honestly wondering Brent.)

Some of these are in the shade, some in direct sun, couldn't decide which showed the whites better...
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps55cfc7f7.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps972f9794.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps676bc01f.jpg
an indoor crappy pics...wiggle worm...
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...pscdb6b887.jpg

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Someone with some sense. Woo! There are still some on this site.

Het spider :):):):):)


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I called you brent rather than Brant, I apologize.

I enjoy when you challenge the masses, just like skip and wes. It makes us (or me at least) think twice about jumping to conclusions. I am not trying to belittle your opinion, I just would like clarification. So you keep mentioning black head spiders, but that is irrelevant to the snake posted is it not? Or, are you suggesting that perhaps it's another blackhead-like morph in the mix making this look like a normalish snake?

OP: Were there any standard looking spiders in this clutch? Was the sire a standard looking spider? Did the mother look remarkable at all?

I would be interested to see what this little one pops out, when that day arrives.

RoseyReps,
It's the completely solid white scale. Thats a genetic trait. and White means White, not ivory, or yellow, or 1/2 white, and typically it stands out from it's surrounding scales. Like it shouldn't be there.... if that makes sense. My eyes see it, but again I closely evaluate 40,000 snakes a year, so thats my own experience. I think the next closest person in the world might see around 12,000? There is a reason why many of the largest breeders from Ralph Davis to Ben Renick ask me, what I see in something they mak, or to help piece a puzzle together, because I've actually proven to be good at it time and time again. Something obviously people on BP.net don't appreciate like Ralph or Ben would.

The OP really needs to show a belly pic. I think that would help give some perspective.

And my name is Brant, not Brent :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

First, blackhead spiders have already proven to pop out spiders. Maybe, spiders and blackheads are allelic? Hmm, you wouldn't know anything about that would you? I have 3 generations of spider blackhead information that really nobody would know about besides 2 people.

Second, the snake the OP posted REALLY has spider in it. I chimed in to hopefully educate some folks that just because it doesn't look like YOUR spider or the spider's you have seen, there are some people who have seen spiders like this. If you want to disagree with me, that's fine.

Lastly, to question someone's "integrity" in the mix is unappropriate. I guess I shouldn't come on here and try to share what I know. I didn't sell this snake, I just came on here to say it was a spider based on my experience. Which you obviously know nothing about.

OP, please post future breedings of this snake and it's results. Should be interesting. I've seen some spider het tristripes that look pretty brutal on the spider scale. Typically making them solid, thick, blackback animals, with no white.

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I already know about the black heads doing crazy things to spiders. I'm unfamiliar with spider het tri stripe. I'm not doubting that.

Now. Op said spider x normal. Those are the 2 genes we are to work with when assessing this snake. With those criteria then its a normal.

How can you accurately say the snake REALLY has spider in it? Have you seen the snake in person? Did you do DNA analysis on it? It's next to impossible for you to say "YES 100% spider". The reason I can say its not is 2 fold. One, it doesn't look like a spider. Spiders are a COLOUR and PATTERN snake. Neither of which this snake has. The amount of white is random so it's not a good marker. Second. A snake that's genetics are questioned is a normal until proven otherwise. I have a "dinker" that I know the lineage of and I know it looks remarkably similar to a known morph (one you work with actually) but I can't say that it is that morph until I prove the genetics.

It seems like your knowledge of spider black heads and spider het tri stripe is more extensive than me. That's fine. I don't have those genes. If you are so certain that that snake is a spider black head or spider het tri stripe, I challenge you to purchase that snake off the OP for the price of those high end combos if you are so certain. I mean what have you got to loose.

On another note. If people keep buying low quality morphs and breeding the crap out of them, there will be some ugly combos in the future. When people say "rate my morph" I think we should say, "it's crap, don't breed it!" Nobody does that. We are all trying to be too nice. IF (biggest if ever) this snake is a spider, it is hands down the ugliest spider I have ever seen and should never be bred. Now that's my opinion and I'm sure people will disagree but hey, it's a free country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

First, blackhead spiders have already proven to pop out spiders. Maybe, spiders and blackheads are allelic? Hmm, you wouldn't know anything about that would you?

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Does this sound a little patronising?




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I will believe it's a spider when I see spider babies. However if it is a spider, it will produce more crappy looking spider babies

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

I will believe it's a spider when I see spider babies. However if it is a spider, it will produce more crappy looking spider babies

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Canadians know wuddup!

I didn't want to say it was a great example. I understand people don't like supporting ugly examples and low end breeding these days, I'm in agreement.

But if I see spider, than I see spider, and I'll say that. No matter how ugly or trashy others may think it looks, I actually get interested in different looking animals, so I actually seek them out, follow them and study them. This will be one of those to add to my brain when it proves, or doesn't prove in your evaluation. I think it's FUN!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by peterneish

Does this sound a little patronising?




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Its "patronizing" and it was argued that my spider combos were normals, so I stated that it was already proven. Which obviously is the case, hence why Im adamantly sharing. I wasn't just bringing information from thin air. So to argue it, I would hope you have your chips lined up.

Isn't it more likely that this is a normal influenced by the spider pattern? I can't remember where but I've definitely seen clutch pictures with spiders and normals, and the normals have a spider-like pattern, but that doesn't mean its a spider.

If this was from a spider x normal, it is just as likely to be normal as it is to be a spider. 50%.

One guy saying it is a spider is not enough to say for certain that it is. I don't care how many snakes you have looked at. The only way to know would be to breed it...and honestly, I wouldn't. What's the point. There are plenty of great spiders out there. If it is a spider, it will likely produce more crappy spiders. If its a normal, well then you just get even more normals. I don't see the positive here.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Its "patronizing" and it was argued that my spider combos were normals, so I stated that it was already proven. Which obviously is the case, hence why Im adamantly sharing. I wasn't just bringing information from thin air. So to argue it, I would hope you have your chips lined up.

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Allelic? Really? So in your "vast" experience when you bred a spider Blackhead to any other snake did you get ANY normals? If so not Allelic. Easy to figure out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

RoseyReps,
It's the completely solid white scale. Thats a genetic trait. and White means White, not ivory, or yellow, or 1/2 white, and typically it stands out from it's surrounding scales. Like it shouldn't be there.... if that makes sense. My eyes see it, but again I closely evaluate 40,000 snakes a year, so thats my own experience. I think the next closest person in the world might see around 12,000? There is a reason why many of the largest breeders from Ralph Davis to Ben Renick ask me, what I see in something they mak, or to help piece a puzzle together, because I've actually proven to be good at it time and time again. Something obviously people on BP.net don't appreciate like Ralph or Ben would.

The OP really needs to show a belly pic. I think that would help give some perspective.

And my name is Brant, not Brent :)

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Understood.

I know you have extensive knowledge on imports and ID'ing subtle differences. Don't you think it is better for people to question than to willing take anyone's opinion without thought? Rather, take many into consideration and form your own?
Just because you are being questioned on the reasoning "why" doesn't mean anyone thinks you don't have the eye for it, or are not experienced enough etc. It means they are still thinking for themselves, and want to know how exactly you formed your conclusions (again, speaking as "us" but I cannot claim everyone thinks the way I do...so who the hell knows)

I am still not seeing spider, but that is my opinion, and perhaps my lack of experience. I see your point about the white scales, and the difference between them and the speckling of my normals, I guess to me that just isn't enough to say 100% spider. I hope I'm wrong, for the OPs sake. But then again, I kinda hope I'm not. Because if that were my snake, I would hope it was a cool normal rather than possibly the lowest quality spider ever. But alas, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Its "patronizing" and it was argued that my spider combos were normals, so I stated that it was already proven. Which obviously is the case, hence why Im adamantly sharing. I wasn't just bringing information from thin air. So to argue it, I would hope you have your chips lined up.

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Who was I arguing with? I was simply stating your post seemed patronising. And it's spelt with an s in the uk, which is where I live, was born, grew up and was educated. Your correction was again, patronising, with an s! :)


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That is indubitably a normal. No ifs and or butts.

I do concur with the majority of the people here and it is undoubtedly a normal.

If that is a spider, and thats a big IF. I do have to say so my self that it is one of the ugliest spiders out there that should not be bred and only kept as a pet.

There is no fighting. Hands down. That right there is a normal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by interloc

Allelic? Really? So in your "vast" experience when you bred a spider Blackhead to any other snake did you get ANY normals? If so not Allelic. Easy to figure out.

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Thanks for the tips in figuring out allelic genetics...

In 3 generations of breedings a blackhead spider has not made any normals, only blackheads and spiders. So yes, that would constitute being allelic. This was from a female, 3 years in a row, from another breeder. So I'd like to breed my male this year and figure out myself.