Identifying a low-white calico

I just purchased a low-white calico (It's my first calico) and I want to make sure I haven't made a mistake. What are some signs to look for in the low-whites? I'll pos pics and tell me If I'm paranoid or if I need to change this decison... He was offered to me as a good deal because I purchased a spider from the breeder as well and I kind of jumped on it lol
These are pics from the breeder:


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...retend/019.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...retend/020.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...retend/044.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lesserlove

I just purchased a low-white calico (It's my first calico) and I want to make sure I haven't made a mistake. What are some signs to look for in the low-whites? I'll pos pics and tell me If I'm paranoid or if I need to change this decison... He was offered to me as a good deal because I purchased a spider from the breeder as well and I kind of jumped on it lol

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Looks like a calico to me. I recommend shopping the snake and not the deal in the future. It's not a calico I would buy. Low whites can throw high whites, and vise versa, but I want to be proud whenever I open my tubs :gj:. My low white calico does that to me because she's got fantastic colors, and people still point them out :P.

Comforting to hear, thanks :p Yeah I know he isn't much of a looker but I knew there was a chance he'd throw high whites and the deal I got him for I was like why not. As my starter I'm happy with him

Yep he's a calico. I'm a big fan of dark snakes and think he looks pretty cool :) I like his funky pattern!

Low quality calico but a calico none the less :(
I am breeding a low white sugar from a friend on here, simple man, and she's smokin hot imo.
You don't need to have a high white to have a beautiful calico/sugar.

She's glowing here, very light compared to normal, but the pattern is what I'm getting at.
Your example is really dark with lots of spots in the aliens, not what I would consider as a nice example of the morph.
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps8a6db5c3.jpg
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...psc778ad3e.jpg

While you don't "need" to have a high white calico in order to possibly produce high white babies, I'm sure it doesn't help your odds to be purposefully breeding a low white calico in the hopes of magically getting a bunch of high whites.

Me personally, I would not breed low white calicos like the ones pictured above. I want to represent the morph to the best of my ability. Selective breeding plays a key role in ball python morphs and I think pairings using low white calicos with the hopes of produce high whites, is not the best course of action.

Breed it if you must, but I would look out for something more visually stunning to try and pass on the genetics of that animal.

I'm just fearful that what has happened to the pastel gene is going to start happening to other morphs. It is rare for me to come across a stunning actually YELLOW pastel. I believe this is party due to the fact that people are not breeding them selectively. They are buying the cheapest animal and breeding for low quality pastels (AKA: $$$). Most of the pastels I see at shows nowadays are a disgrace to the pastel gene.

Now I'm not trying to say that the variations within morphs are not valuable; for example the Pied gene varies greatly and I love both the low white and high white pieds. The problem occurs when a pastel doesn't appear much different than a light blushed normal, or a calico with so little white it might as well be a normal. I actually love the variation within the pastel gene: lots of blushing vs. very little blushing. But the browning out of pastels is what is really prevalent as an undesirable trait. So why, if it is so undesirable, do I see 90% of pastels look browned out after their first shed? It should not be that hard to find a pastel that is actually yellow and only develops some slight brown spotting as it ages.

So for calico the most desirable trait is that high white speckling. So why would you continue to breed low white calicos? I'm not trying to tell you what you should and shouldn't breed. This is completely up to the individual. I'm just very interested in this conversation of breeding less than desirable animals.

Not everyone is in love with the high whites. The OP's Calico is a bit on the dark side for my taste,
but not a terrible calico. I originally bought my pair of low white F&F Calicos because I thought they were HOT,
not because they were cheap, they were not.


http://i45.tinypic.com/10qw7bn.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/mh3udv.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

It should not be that hard to find a pastel that is actually yellow and only develops some slight brown spotting as it ages.

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This really is true! I hope I don't steer the conversation further away from calicos, but it REALLY is difficult to find a top notch, grade A pastel! I found an ad not too long ago with some fantastic pastels, and I had to really TRY to not buy them DX... I need more space!

Back to calicos, I think my calico has some jet blacks, but she also has some bright oranges and yellows. The sire of her had such a weird look to him, but the babies produced by him were a mix of gorgeous high white/high orange calicos, as well as low white and high orange calicos. I was too late to buy the super high white calico female, but I was lucky enough to pick out the colorful one that I got! It really helped to know that the line of calicos I'm working with eat like champs :cool:.

To the OP, as long as you're happy with him, I'm happy for you and I congratulate you on your new pickup :gj:!!! New snakes are always fun to get :P

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Originally Posted by qegalpal

Not everyone is in love with the high whites. The OP's Calico is a bit on the dark side for my taste,
but not a terrible calico. I originally bought my pair of low white F&F Calicos because I thought they were HOT,
not because they were cheap, they were not.


http://i45.tinypic.com/10qw7bn.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/mh3udv.jpg

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Those are nice calicos. Not a lot of spots, great color, reduced pattern. I'd say they hit all the other requirement for a calico besides the high white. I would breed these animals because I believe all the other calico traits they exhibit are great.

I got a good chuckle out of this silly comment ...

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While you don't "need" to have a high white calico in order to possibly produce high white babies, I'm sure it doesn't help your odds to be purposefully breeding a low white calico in the hopes of magically getting a bunch of high whites.

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Everyone has their opinions, but you show how little you know about the topic when you make comments like that :rolleye2:
I guess low white pieds shouldn't be breed either? smh


To the OP's snake, forget the high/white low white crap, it's just not a very nice example IMO.

I have plenty of requirements for calicos :gj:. Color, amount of white, and pattern :gj:. You don't see many discussions about calico/sugar traits. Mostly just calico vs sugar discussions/debates.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I got a good chuckle out of this silly comment ...


Everyone has their opinions, but you show how little you know about the topic when you make comments like that :rolleye2:
I guess low white pieds shouldn't be breed either? smh


To the OP's snake, forget the high/white low white crap, it's just not a very nice example IMO.

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I understand what you mean and I even talked specifically about pieds. Low white pieds are beautiful. But you wouldn't breed two low white pies together with the expectation of producing hi white pies, right? This is basic selective breeding. You breed animals that display the traits you desire. Not the exact opposite. You don't have to be an expert to realize this basic concept.

I don't have direct experience with breeding calicos (yet) but selective breeding must play some part.

Its not a silly comment.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Steffe, low white sugar/calicos are KNOWN to throw high whites. It's a proven tendency. I still say its completely random like pieds, but ive heard a few different breeders say that low white sugars/calicos consistently throw more high white offspring. Brian (Simple_Man) mentioned it before in one of his videos.

Are you saying pieds are genetic too? Two low white pieds could produce all high white offspring. Its random. Not much to do with selective breeding.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Steffe, low white sugar/calicos are KNOWN to throw high whites. It's a proven tendency. I still say its completely random like pieds, but ive heard a few different breeders say that low white sugars/calicos consistently throw more high white offspring. Brian (Simple_Man) mentioned it before in one of his videos.

Are you saying pieds are genetic too? Two low white pieds could produce all high white offspring. Its random. Not much to do with selective breeding.

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Its random. You said it yourself.

I believe you that some low white calicos and pieds may produce the opposite. But this should not be an excuse to breed poor quality animals. The variations are random, but with selective breeding you should be able to create a line that highlights specific traits.

A proven tendency? That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one!

You can't sit here and tell me the calico the OP posted is going to produce nice looking calicos.

The only way to determine if a low white calico will produce high whites is to prove it out. You can't make assumptions based on random variation.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

high white or low white has not one thing to do with quality when it comes to pieds or calicos, that is your opinion on which is better.

The pied X pied thing is totally random, you cannot expect more high whites from high white X high white pairings anymore than you can expect more high white calicos from breeding high X high.

It's not the same as wanting two of the brightest pastels to breed to each other.
It's not the same as having two highly flamed up yellowbelly's to breed to each other.

The pattern is much more important than the white, because that's what you're passing on consistently when you pair up calico's and sugars.

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You can't sit here and tell me the calico the OP posted is going to produce nice looking calicos.

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Your right, which is why I said it wasn't a nice example. My comment had nothing to do with the amount of white it has.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Its random. You said it yourself.

I believe you that some low white calicos and pieds may produce the opposite. But this should not be an excuse to breed poor quality animals. The variations are random, but with selective breeding you should be able to create a line that highlights specific traits.

A proven tendency? That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one!

You can't sit here and tell me the calico the OP posted is going to produce nice looking calicos.

The only way to determine if a low white calico will produce high whites is to prove it out. You can't make assumptions based on random variation.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

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This phrase makes what you are saying on this topic your opinion. If you talk to people that breed Sugars/Calicos you will know that what you are saying doesn't hold up to real world results. Your idea does apply to many genes and characteristics. The black back, low/no dots, blushing, pattern tearing, color, and everything else are genetically reproducible. This helps differentiate high and low quality animals. People that breed these genes will tell you that the gene randomly presents in various quantities of white pigmentation. There is no correlation between low white animals producing low white animals and vice versa for high white animals. The amount of white happens to randomly present on Sugars/Calicos. I do no intend to offend but your hypothetical opinion just doesn't stand against real world experience of people breeding Sugars/Calicos.

Regards,

B

Perhaps I didn't present my point in the way in which I intended. My point was that a calico that is lacking all they key characteristics of a calico (pattern and color), and is low white... shouldn't be expected to make a bunch of quality calicos.

The low white calicos that you guys posted are indeed nice and I have no doubt that they will produce both low white and high white calicos.

So we can conclude that the amount of white on an animal isn't genetic and doesn't determine "quality". Its a random occurrence.

Perhaps when I have the means to do so, I will experiment with selectively breeding low white vs high white pieds. I have a hard time believing (even if it is true) that you can't selectively breed for low white or high white animals to some extent.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Perhaps when I have the means to do so, I will experiment with selectively breeding low white vs high white pieds. I have a hard time believing (even if it is true) that you can't selectively breed for low white or high white animals to some extent.

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Experiment away, nothing wrong with that, it's a hobby and if it drives you to try to figure it out, awesome.
Just remember, the pied gene has been there and done that, as has the calico/sugars, they've both been around the block a few times with lots of results from breeding highs and lows.

It definitely is all of the other traits you want to be "quality", no arguments there.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Experiment away, nothing wrong with that, it's a hobby and if it drives you to try to figure it out, awesome.
Just remember, the pied gene has been there and done that, as has the calico/sugars, they've both been around the block a few times with lots of results from breeding highs and lows.

It definitely is all of the other traits you want to be "quality", no arguments there.

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My next project is lightning pieds, so I will be playing around with it. I know pied and calico have been out there for a while, but it's still worth trying to prove out. If my goal is to have a bunch of low white lightning pieds, I'm going to breed the low-whites together. When the results come in, I'll come back here and call myself the biggest idiot on the planet or the most genius snake breeder there ever was :P Worst case scenario, I have a bunch of lightning pieds. Doesn't sound so bad!

I really didn't mean for this to turn into a conversation about whether low white or high white is genetic, I was actually trying to bring about a discussion of breeding low quality animals in the hopes that they might magically make a nice looking animals, using (mistakenly) white markings as an example, since that is really the only noticeable calico trait that this particular snake has.

I thank you for your comments. I've been here a while, but I am still learning. Somewhere in my brain I knew that there wasn't a known correlation between low white and high white animals, but I was trying to focus on the broader picture of breeding animals that are lacking key traits of a particular morph in an attempt to somehow create nice looking examples of said morph.

I wish people didn't feel the need to purchase low quality animals, but I understand. The price can be so tempting for someone on a budget, especially when it is a good price for a morph that you'd love to work with. I'm guilty of this as well. Not all my animals are the BEST that they could be, but I tried (even when I was new to the hobby and on a college budget) to get the best looking morphs I could find for the right price. This resulted in a wrongly sexed "female" spider, and a $400 pinstripe. They are both great looking snakes, but not my best investments. I hope to eventually phase out all of my "generic" pastels and replace them with the Citrus line.

This is my first year of breeding. I'm still a newb and I have a lot to learn about genetics and breeding in general.

It just bothers me to see the ball market getting tanked by low quality animals that drive prices lower and lower. To me, breeding low quality animals is like backyard breeding puppies. Eventually you are going to want to sell those babies, and when they don't sell for the price you want, you will end up lowering the price until someone buys it....and the cycle repeats.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Its random. You said it yourself.

I believe you that some low white calicos and pieds may produce the opposite. But this should not be an excuse to breed poor quality animals. The variations are random, but with selective breeding you should be able to create a line that highlights specific traits.

A proven tendency? That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one!

You can't sit here and tell me the calico the OP posted is going to produce nice looking calicos.

The only way to determine if a low white calico will produce high whites is to prove it out. You can't make assumptions based on random variation.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

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I wasn't even arguing about the OP's calico. I was arguing the fact that what you said was incorrect. Low whites can throw high whites. Yes, its a proven tendency. It's been proven that that is what they tend to do when bred. I wasn't saying all low white calico/sugars produce high whites, I was just saying that it's entirely possible and does happen. You made it sound like low white calicos were poor quality animals not worth breeding, which isn't the case.
That may not have been what you meant, thats how I read it though...

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I wasn't even arguing about the OP's calico. I was arguing the fact that what you said was incorrect. Low whites can throw high whites. Yes, its a proven tendency. It's been proven that that is what they tend to do when bred. I wasn't saying all low white calico/sugars produce high whites, I was just saying that it's entirely possible and does happen. You made it sound like low white calicos were poor quality animals not worth breeding, which isn't the case.
That may not have been what you meant, thats how I read it though...

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I gotcha. I was just using the wrong example to demonstrate that a crappy morph is not going to create nice looking babies.

I read your comment as saying that low white calico's are proven to produce high white offspring. While this might be partially true, you can't buy a low white calico and assume that it will throw lots of high whites. Neither can you assume the opposite. :P

Well I guess next may I'll let y'all know.