Should I take this deal?

The person that supplies me with rats for my ball python is wanting to get out of balls since he doesn't have the time for them anymore and asked me if I would be interested in taking them. He knows that I have a lot of crested geckos and frogs and am looking to get into ball pythons more. I just wasn't expecting a deal to fall into my lap I guess. He would be willing to do $2000 for the group plus all the tubs, water dishes, a "feeding hook" (not sure what that is), an unused bag of aspen and even include a large amount of frozen rats for them. Right now the only thing that is slightly concerning to me is that he said he doesn't use anything for heat and that they were feeding great before winter and they stopped when the cold weather started but that they would resume feeding again as it warmed up. He said as long as they are inside and it doesn't drop below 70 degrees then they don't need a heating pad. From my readings in various places my own ball has an UTH and a heat emitter for a warm side, coolside and belly heat to digest food. As well as various items for controlling the temperature. Then again I am new to this so he may very well know better than I about their care. I'm still new to prices on ball pythons though and I was hoping I could get your opinion on the matter. What do you guys think about this deal? The list of morphs is:

Females:

1Albino 1500+ g
3Normals 1500+ g
1Pastel 1000+ g
1Normal 1000+ g
1spider baby
1Cinnamon around 280g
1Normal around 250g
1Yellow Belly close to 300g

MALES:

1Pastel 500+ g
1Butter 500+ g
1Pinstripe close to 400g
1Spider close to 400g
1 Gstripe 250g
1Pastel baby
1 Yellow Belly baby

The price isn't bad at all if they are all healthy.

The females are worth ~$2K alone, so not a bad price if they are good examples (and healthy, like TJ said).

The truth of "togood to be true" may be present here.. From what I can that is a good deal.. But I'd check the animals Out first.... He may have a RI outbreak or a mite outbreak and just trying to cut his looses. I would not buy animals from someone who doesn't use heat unless it's like a larger breeder wo heats the ENTIRE room. I'd say the check the snakes first and be safer than sorry, you don't want to spend $2,000 than another $2'000 in vet bills and hate yourself.. I learned first hand not to jump on deals to good to be true...

He lives in the same town as me so I'll be going over there to look at them before I fork over any cash for sure. I'll check for mites and listen for any wheezing/bubbles. I would think that although I've never personally had any experience with illness in my own ball, mites and wheezing should be easy to spot if I'm looking for it right?

Yikes, no heat definitely worries me. I heat my snake room to 75 because I don't trust my COOL side dropping below 75, I can't imagine not supplying them with any heat.

If they are healthy it's a good deal, but that is a big concern. Plus I would think they would be on the thin side if they don't eat every winter.

We live in southwest Florida so I guess I could understand the "no heat" idea better here than I could if we were up north but it does still concern me since I'm a little OCD when it comes to my own animals. I guess I'll have to come back to the forums to ask about how to get these guys back into shape and get them what they need if I do follow through with this deal.

Be aware that taking in a large number of snakes suddenly is a HUGE responsibility. I did it last summer as a rescue. They will need quarantine away from all of your other animals for a minimum of 6 months. Be prepared for things to go wrong, and be prepared for vet bills even if the animals seem healthy at first, the stress of a big move can easily make ugly things rear their head. Be prepared for feeding troubles, regardless of what he says.

I do not agree with him not using heat. Even in the climate of Florida, heat is something most breeders use and recommend. Do you have the means to provide heat for them? Are you prepared to spend the amount you will need to spend if you have to buy heat for them all?

You will be taking a huge leap if you do this. BUT, if you are willing to work hard and see it though, there can be a big reward at the end.

Gale

My ball room is 80-81 degrees with heat tape set at 93. This gives me a hot spot in the bin between 90 and 92.

No heat worries me.

I'm not sure if you've seen my thread outlining my battle with a snake with RI. But no heat and keeping them in the 70s for months may not be good. In my experience, and from what I've read, snakes can take quite awhile to show their symptoms. I wouldn't be surprised if you took in a whole collection and then months down the line they started displaying symptoms.

I still can't say for 100% sure, but my snake who is sick I *suspect* was kept in less than optimal conditions, according to what other people have said about the sellers husbandry practices in the past.

No heat on any of the ball pythons is less than optimal conditions, in my eyes. It's a good price they are offering you, but vet bills and medications add up fast. So I would be very hesitant to jump on that offer.

Of course I'm not saying this is what is going to happen, of course they could all be perfectly fine. But I'm not sure that's something I would want to gamble on.

Thanks for all the responses, I figured youguys would know better than I do if this was a good deal or not and I definitely appreciate everyone's thoughts. I'm going to go take a look at them and make my decision from there.

In response to Gale: yes I most definitely know that this is going to be a big jump in responsibilities on top of my already large animal population. My plan is to give the normals amonth (or however long it takes) to make sure they're eating and have no issues and either sell or trade them off since I really have no need for them in my future plans and that will take 5 snakes out of the mix. I'm a stay at home mom and working with animals has always been my dream since I was a tiny kid so I know this is something I can do.

Feeding issues I'll be honest and say I'm not familiar with since my girl never misses a meal. Even in shed she's always ready to eat. I do expect there to be some kind of feeding problems though with taking in 17 snakes even if they were taken care of properly, I’ve heard balls CAN be problem feeders.

Heating I was actually going to ask you guys what you would recommend because my one snake is in an Exo Terra tank. I’ve never dealt with tubs or racks before so how do you guys heat these? If I’m going to have that many snakes I think a rack would work out better for me. I currently only have one thermostat so is there a way to heat all of them with one or am I going to need more? I’m willing to buy what I need to make sure they have what they need but I guess I’m just not really sure where to start when it comes to tubs and racks.

Well, if you are getting the tubs, does he keep them in a rack you can get, or are they all just individual tubs with lids? Your best bet for heat is to use heat tape. Either Flexwatt or there is a new brand out but I can't remember the name right now. With heat tape, since it's flexible and fairly easy to set up and use, you'll spend less money than buying individual heat mats. Properly wired, you can use a single thermostat for quite a large amount of heat tape, so you shouldn't need another one.

As far as wiring the heat tape, there are a number of very clear threads stickied here in the DIY section and they are all you need to get things going. If you can use a pair of pliers, a razor blade, and a soldering iron, your in business.

As far as a rack goes, if he does not have one you can get, as a temporary measure you can make one out of some basic storage shelves from Wal-Mart for a while. Especially if the tubs have lids.

Be sure to ask what prey they eat when they are feeding, and how often he feeds when they are on food. I would give them a minimum of a week before you try feeding, and two weeks might not be a bad idea since with no heat they will need the warmth to jump start their metabolism again.

If you like, you can add me as a friend here and keep in contact with me. I'd be happy to help you with any problems that crop up in addition to the other people here. I'm no expert, but having been in a similar situation and survived it quite well, I might be able to give you some insight on a problem or just a concern that might be bugging you.

Gale

I would have him pay for a vet visit and get a vet to look them over first before plunking any money down.
A good deal can quickly turn into you caring for a bunch of sick snakes and giving shots and you don't want that mess.
Our vet does group deals that aren't much more expensive than taking one snake in for a visit.
70 degrees is bad, I just got 4 snakes back to healthy again because their tubs dropped to 71-72 degrees for awhile and they got RI's.

Personally I like to hand pick my snakes one at a time, a collection is not something I'd ever buy, but that's just me.

Well, he says he doesn't have a rack so I'm assuming just tubs with lids that he keeps on a shelf. Thanks for the tip on heat tape. If there's a sticky on it I'm sure I'll figure it out. Thanks for offering advice if I should need it in the future. I sent you a request.

SnakesRkewl I would agree with you but how often do you ask your sellers to take their animals to the vet before you buy them? I guess what I mean is, if he's already giving me a good deal on them then I don't want to rock the boat too much. He obviously doesn't really want to keep these guys if he's offering me a really good price on them. I'd hate to see him "just hold onto them for now" and the snakes go even longer without heat and food. I'm definitely not buying if I see any problems, and I'll be looking extra close for sure.

financially its a very good deal. 2000 dollars for 17 BPs, many of them in breeding size, many of them with useable morphs, financially very good.

of course its a bit too good to be true, but if he now has success with rhodent breeding and that requires more and more time but also generates more revenue, i can see how it could be real. If he wants to sell to reduce his workload, selling the snakes individually followed by selling the equipment would be more money, but also MUCH more work and time.

if the health of the animals is adequate and the workload wont overwhelm you, i would say go for it. Of course look at all the snakes, you can maybe take some pictures and post them here, if you can inspect the snakes before making the deal, risk is low, and if the snakes are healthy it is a very good deal.

Make sure you get all documentation about the snakes that he has, knowing where he got which snakes, older pictures from when he got the snakes as babies, data on the genetics of the parent snakes, all that will help if you decide to re-sell individual snakes and when you start breeding yourself.

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Originally Posted by FroggyCrazy

Well, he says he doesn't have a rack so I'm assuming just tubs with lids that he keeps on a shelf. Thanks for the tip on heat tape. If there's a sticky on it I'm sure I'll figure it out. Thanks for offering advice if I should need it in the future. I sent you a request.

SnakesRkewl I would agree with you but how often do you ask your sellers to take their animals to the vet before you buy them?

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Never, but then I don't buy snakes that have been compromised as these snakes health obviously has been ;)

Any update on the snakes? Have you seen them in person yet?

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I know I kept snakes art cooler temps ( way before I had internet. ) I was given a pair of ball pythons. I kept hem with my rat snakes ( I was like 17-19 ) and they did great with me for the 3 years I had them. I gave one away and the other one died a month later in the middles of the summer. I never kept heat on them at the time.
But I agree great deal if your boyfriend/husband has any carpenter skill I can design a 14-18 tub rack ( made with plywood for you that you can set heat tape on ( it be a simple 7-8 tub double rack ( 2 tubs to a shelf) and can run on a one t-sat. with a power stripe on the end ( Iran 2 of these for 5+ years. I only need the tub sizes ( rough on quarts or depth/width) and assembly would be done in he room you want to keep them in.

I wish I had the funds and the chances at these deals that people are finding lol .

So here's my 2 cents, if in your opinion after careful research and inspection the snakes all appear healthy then make the purchase. You can always decide what kind of enclosure you want later as well and if you will or won't use heat.

Rather than take anyone's advice I always notice one's own "informed judgement" is best.

If you need unprejudiced advice, then simply, post some pics of the collection, most experienced members here can draw conclusion on health from a decent photo of an animal, top and belly shots would do nicely. any other assessment such as checking for IR, wheezing, mites etc. can be done on physical inspection.

As for the collection not eating, once you control the temps, they "will" eat for you.

On a final note, good lucky with them if you do decide to take the collection.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Any update on the snakes? Have you seen them in person yet?

Sent from my SAMSUNG Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2

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Nope, not yet. I have an appointment made for Friday at 1pm to go look at them. When I know something you guys will be the first to know :)

SnakesRkewl, I only knew about the heating issue because I asked him specifically how he was heating them. I'm not sure if that's a common question for others to ask but as I said before I'm pretty attentive about my animals so I ask everything I can think of. Still, I'm sure there have been animals that I bought where someone did something that I don't agree with, I just never knew about it. That being said, the seller doesn't know at this point that I'm questioning his husbandry but I will let him know if I think the snakes need vet care before I touch them. If they look good, I think it's in the snake's best interest for me to get them here and given the care they deserve as soon as possible.

Mechnut450, yes he's pretty talented if he knows what it is he's trying to build but he's never built racks of any kind before. Once I get there on Friday I'll know more about what exactly is going on with the enclosures. I'll send you a friend request and let you know when I know about the tub sizes.

You guys are always so helpful! I'm sure figuring this stuff out on my own would take a LOT more work and time and I'm very grateful to have an awesome community to help guide me some on this quest. :bow:

Friday??!!!!! We cant wait until Friday.........:P If the snakes are healthy, and you are willing and ready for the challenge, I say GO FOR IT! Please let us know asap with pics!

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Friday??!!!!! We cant wait until Friday.........:P If the snakes are healthy, and you are willing and ready for the challenge, I say GO FOR IT! Please let us know asap with pics!

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LOL Will do! I've already had someone interested in "taking some off my hands" and felt bad I told them no way. I got plans already floating through my head for them now. Is it ok to still be stingy with your balls even if you have 18 of them? LOL :taz:

Ok so today was the big day and I know you all are looking forward to the pics which I do have and I'll upload here in just a minute. However, there is some bad news..... he lost some of the snakes last night due to the cold :( :mad:. They were kept in a travel trailer outside which was insulated but with no heat as he had told me and he lost the butter, 2 spiders and a normal to the cold. Apparently, a well known breeder and seller (not going to name names but I do know of them) told him that they don't use heat and it's not needed. I asked to see the dead snakes still as I still wanted to see what kind of shape they were in before they died (I know but I really felt it needed to be done).

The rest of the snakes (13) I went through one by one checking for mites, any stuck shed, wheezing or clicking and there was amazingly none that I saw. However, the snakes were quite cold to the touch and they are currently warming up and becoming more active. He did show me that the albino female had been bitten by a rat which looks healed but I'm not sure how old the wound is. I would assume that it will take several sheds for the scars to go away. She also seemed to have a few areas where her scales were not flush up against the others. I'm assuming that may be from not enough humidity or something that can be fixed with good husbandry.

With that being said, most of them looked pretty good other than being cold and some I thought were thin. He told me that one of the normals was bred to the butter male that died and that once she warms up to not be surprised if she lays a clutch of eggs. I just couldn't walk away from them knowing that he had already lost some from the cold. The final price settled on was $1550 and I got them home as soon as possible. I gave them all clean water and checked them all over again once I got home and my boyfriend is headed to the store now to get some supplies for building their rack which should be done this weekend. I still have a long night of organizing, shopping and working on their tubs to try and make them as comfortable as possible until it is built but I'll post some pictures for you guys to let me know what you think. Needless to say none of these guys will be leaving my care for quite awhile since I wan't to make sure they're all nice and healthy before any of them leave my hands.

I don't think some of these were labelled correctly so if you see something wrong please let me know. Some I knew right away were wrong so I crossed it off and wrote the correct morph. I think there was 2 of the cards were mixed up with 2 of the balls that died.
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps069eb018.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psfa1d8ec2.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0b48a8cd.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0b14b18a.jpg

This girl was sold to him as a vanilla but he sold it to me as a normal. What do you think?
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psd11601b8.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps61d74752.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psfcd88f5c.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps852c45ae.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...pse00853f7.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psa52a87a1.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps14fb18e6.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psf2cbbe40.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8dcc0ffe.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psdb4509ab.jpg

That's crazy he had such a nice collection and never even kept them warm...And very sad a few animals paid for his mistake with their lives. Sweet deal though! Everyone looks great, and you're right those cards were all mixed around that's a little strange

a snake is not dead until it is WARM AND DEAD.


if its cold, it might look dead, not be breathing, feel really stiff.... and it still can recover if you get it up to temperature. You can really be sure that its dead only when its warm and dead.

i hope you tried warming them up already or that its maybe not too late.

EDIT: just in case you have the "dead" snakes, warm them up now. i mean, gently, to hotspot temps. might still work if they are not frozen but also havent been warm since then.

I know he said the butter was starting to get stiff and he thought it must have been the first to die. The others were limp and one I saw had it's head upside down. I'm pretty sure they were dead unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by FroggyCrazy

I know he said the butter was starting to get stiff and he thought it must have been the first to die. The others were limp and one I saw had it's head upside down. I'm pretty sure they were dead unfortunately.

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oh, too bad :( i hope something like this will never happen to you again, but just in case, and for others reading it.... if snakes die due to cold, always warm them to hotspot temps when you find them. i remember a forum thread here, about a cold incident, 2 snakes dead one cold and stiff.... people advised to warm them up anyway, the original poster did it, it was quick enough, all recovered, all survived. And he really believed at least two were gone. So.... i had to point it out.

Though the animals in the pics look good and appear healthy from the outside, There is NO WAY I would buy even a single one! He just lost 4 of them supposedly to the cold from one night, but you wouldn't know if there was an underlying issue from the extended period of time exposed to less than decent care without a necropsy on the animals that had to die due to his poor husbandry.

Though it may seem sad that if you don't buy the remaining animals they will continue to suffer; it is also not your responsibility to pay this person for them and fix his :cens0r: ups!
And if you are still interested I would have him pay for a necropsy on the animals that died and a vet check on the remaining ones, like was suggested by Jerry.

I know most people probably would have walked away when he said he lost some to the cold. I told him that I was taking a risk and I do understand that it is a huge risk but if I didn't think these guys had a chance then I wouldn't have done it either. Yes on the outside they look not great but most look okay. The reason he was selling is because the trailer that they were being kept in was at a buddies house and the buddy decided he didn't want to let him keep the trailer on the property anymore. Therefore, I'm pretty confident that he won't be getting anymore at least not for awhile. So at least I know I'm not giving him money to get more snakes. He did admit that he regrets not getting them the heat they needed. Hopefully he has learned his lesson now even though it did cost some animals their lives. I didn't want the ones that were left to suffer the same fate especially with how sweet most of them are.

The good news is they are moving around more now and more alert. I'm slowly warming them up as I don't want to put them in shock from a sudden jump in temps (it really was super cold in that trailer) but they're actually doing much better than what they were when I first saw them. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that everyone pulls through fine and if they don't make it then I know I gave it my best shot and it wasn't from a lack of trying. Poor babies!

Boy sweetheart, this is a rough way to go all the way around.

After having found out the animals died, I would have refused to pay him. If you want me to take these animals and care for them fine, but I am not paying you for animals I am rescuing. That being said, I am guilty of being a sap more than once in my life when it comes to animals, and I know for a fact I'm not the only one here who has done it.

Now, as to your animals, some of them are pretty nice indeed, some are average. The cinnamon in the first picture is super nice in my opinion. The low contrast albino is really nice, you don't see too many like that any more since high contrast became so popular. I suspect that female might indeed be a vanilla. I have some of my own, and she's got some of the traits for sure. The first pastel is above average, nice and light, the second is average. Nice busy pinstripe. LOVE that genetic stripe! If that were a girl I'd be whispering in your ear about her. Decent normals, not real outstanding, but not bad. That first yellowbelly has got me scratching my head, I'm gonna need some more pictures of that one for sure! The second yellowbelly looks pretty good, like you'd expect a yellowbelly to look. That last pastel is really sweet, light and yellow, very nice.

Let me see. I'd like some additional pictures if I can be so demanding. ;) The "vanilla" female. I'd like a good closeup of her head, please. And a belly shot. Put her next to one of your normals for comparison please. I really have a suspicion she just might be a Vanilla. And that first yellowbelly. Close up head shot, belly shot or two, and one of each side please. That one really interests me. I mean really interests me.

Since I don't think much of this guy or his so called snake keeping experience, do you have someone who can sex these snakes for you? Because I wouldn't believe for one second they are what he says they are. And I would love to know who this "big name expert" who told this guy you didn't need heat is. You can send the name to me privately, but I really want to know who would be handing out such poor information.

You are in for a long, rough road hon, but you just might find it worth your while in the end.

Gale

be careful

I'll get those pictures for you tomorrow Gale. We got all the supplies now for their rack so we'll be working allllll through the night to get this up and going for them and get them out of those stinky tubs. When I transfer them over I'll take some pics for you and maybe you can help me ID them better. I don't know anyone that sexes snakes but from watching videos I think I could do it myself when the time comes. These guys are a loooooong ways from me attempting to breed them. You're right though, he did say that he thought one was male that turned out to be female so I'm assuming he didn't really know other than what someone told him they were.

Wow! That guy did those beautiful animals sooo wrong. The second pastel has a really cool head pattern, and that genetic stripe, wow!!! Gorgeous, nice clean stripe!!! Please keep me posted on him!! ;)

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You are far braver than I; I would never pay for that many snakes in those conditions. Snakes can live in terrible conditions for a long time and symptoms take a awhile to show up. So good thing you only paid $1500 or whatever for them, because I foresee many many vet bills in your future.

I wish you luck!

Just thought I'd give an update on these guys. So far everything is going well, considering. No losses which is a plus. All of the smaller snakes have finally taken their first meal (including the very small and thin snakes) which was a HUGE relief for me. The bigger snakes haven't eaten yet but I do think they will once they settle in better (they've been moved twice now due to use building them a new rack and buying them new tubs and heat tape). One question I would like to ask though if anyone is still following this thread: how can I tell if a female is gravid? Some of these females have been bred and have locked with males. I'm not sure of the signs to look for though since I've never attempted to breed yet. I know sometimes they can lay with their belly up and in odd positions right before they lay but what are the early stages and how long until I don't have to worry about them laying?

Do you have pics of any of the girls in question? The entire BP Breeding section is devoted to signs and timelines for gravid and building females. ;)