When is it sensible to breeder feeders instead of buying?

So I'm gonna add a thrid member to my snake collection very soon. I'm now contemplating whether it would be cheaper for me keep a small breeding colony of rat to feed my growing collection. I want to breed my 2 female balls when they get up to size in about a year so there will be at least one more male to add to the collection + however many babies that will eventually come. I hope that by that time i will have a self sufficiant colony of rats and rat babies so I don't have to get rape at the pet store for their rats. But from my research it seems like breeding rats aint exactly cheap either, have to factor in their food and wood shaving.

Is there any way to keep down the cost of rat breeding? For example using something cheaper than wood shaving? Feeding the rat human food/my dog's food?

I'm currently pay about $4 for a small rat if I have time to drive out further, if not the closest pet store sells small rats for $6 which would be almost $20 a week just to feed 3 snakes, i'm hoping i can do better than that by breeding my own. And no buying bulk in f/t isn't an option yet as i don't have a big enough collection nor do i have a extra freezer to store the rats in.

I realize that it take sometime to get the colony started but if this is ultimately going to save my money I really want to do it.


I have had alot of hamster in my childhood days, it wasn't that high maintain but i still have to refil its food every other day and switch out the shaving every other week. But hamster is nowhere as messy and stinky as rats. How much extra work am i look at per week?


or should i just forget all this and get a mini freezer:P

You should first realize the time spent taking care of the rat colony. You'll need space and yes, you'll need wood shavings and rodent diet, not people food. Yes, there could be some smell, especially if you cut corners and don't use good bedding, don't clean the bins often, etc etc.

For smaller numbers of snakes, I would say get a freezer. It's really only for larger numbers of pythons that you start to reach the tipping point where raising the rats yourself pays for itself.

The local price of the rodents matters in figuring your costs, but don't forget the time you'll spend too.

I was spending $60/week on feeders(high quality local live feeder supplier). Now I spend right about $20/week on supplies BUT I also spend a good few hours a week working the rat colony, which isn't super pleasant, since the bins can stink. And I LIKE rats and I've worked some rank jobs, so cleaning out a dirty rat bin with rat urine and feces and the occasional dead half-eaten rat isn't as distasteful to me as it would be to most.

I started my rat colony when I was up to 10 snakes. It wasn't to save money, because I expected it to cost more than buying bulk frozen, it was so I could have a constant supply for my finicky eaters who wouldn't eat frozen with any regularity.

Currently I have 3.14 breeder rats, that I have put into a rotation that produces 2 litters per week, roughly of course. I am able to get my bedding and lab block(6F) from a local horse supply store. I typically spend around 75.00 per month with them.

Now my colony does produce more rats than what I use during a typical week, so I sell my extras to other snake keepers in my area. This helps to offset my rodent costs.

Hope this helps,

John

cleaning out the bin doesnt really bother me but its not enjoyable and i wouldn't want to do it if i'm not saving money from keeping my own, like you i have work some pretty dirty jobs too and i have had and i have work in a pet store before, i have also seen half eaten dead rats mice and hamster:(.


In any case why cant i feed rats human food? I'm not talking about junk food here, healthy maybe even raw food. Rats have survive on human scraps for millennium have they not? except for the food that is poisonous to them shouldn't they be ok? The mazuri dog food alot of people feed their rats are also just processed left over human food like any other dog food? If dogs can be raise on raw food why can't rats?


As for space I plan to keep them in my garage, simply because anywhere else it would stink too much. I'm trying to work out the math of everything i would need. how much shaving do they go through a week? if i feed commercial food how much am i looking at a week? How many tubs would i need to get a small colony going? I'm assuming that 1 female rat to one snake, so with 3 snakes to feed atm i would need a 1.3 colony. Can i succesfully keep that in 2 tubs? one for the male when the female is preganant and one for all the females?

The small size rats i want would take about a month to reach the size, what do i do about the one that reach the size but can't be feed yet? eventaully some of them will grow too big. Is there like a formula i can follow to make sure i have rats when i need it?

As for going to frozen route, i check locally and small can be had for $2.75 with 15$ delievery fee so i would have purchase 50 to make it worthwhile. It works out cheaper but also means i have to have $100+ each time i make an order, its a good chunk of money i know i eventually spent that much anyways but its easier for my wallet to pay in smaller increments. Not to mention a 3 cu freezer would cost me $210 and i would need to have the freezer before i can order rats.


anybody have small collection like mine that breeds?

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Originally Posted by threezero

In any case why cant i feed rats human food? I'm not talking about junk food here, healthy maybe even raw food. Rats have survive on human scraps for millennium have they not? except for the food that is poisonous to them shouldn't they be ok? The mazuri dog food alot of people feed their rats are also just processed left over human food like any other dog food? If dogs can be raise on raw food why can't rats?

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For the same reason dogs shouldn't be fed human food.
Raw food is one thing, human table scraps is not a healthy diet for rats.

http://www.ratfanclub.org/diet.html

[QUOTE=wolfy-hound;2043305] And I LIKE rats and I've worked some rank jobs, so cleaning out a dirty rat bin with rat urine and feces and the occasional dead half-eaten rat isn't as distasteful to me as it would be to most.[/QUO

And to that I say: I salute you. I just can't get into rats. I hate them. I think it's the constant urination that gets to me. I don't care how bad an acute smell is, but even a slightly unpleasant smell that's chronic will get to me. Also, those teeth are just menacing. They don't stab, or even cut. Those teeth essentially peel, or in another sense they flay. But hey, I like things that give others the heeby jeebies.

also if someone could explain how you get a part of post in the quote box that'd be stellar.... because apparently i don't know how too

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Originally Posted by threezero

In any case why cant i feed rats human food? I'm not talking about junk food here, healthy maybe even raw food. Rats have survive on human scraps for millennium have they not? except for the food that is poisonous to them shouldn't they be ok? The mazuri dog food alot of people feed their rats are also just processed left over human food like any other dog food? If dogs can be raise on raw food why can't rats?

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Rats have survive so long is because they breed like crazy. Pretty much any part of the world that isn't below freezing they can breed at. Most wild rats probably won't last more than 1-1.5 years tops.


Mazuri doesn't make dog food. When people talk about Mazuri on here, they are referring to Mazuri rodent diet. Rats require low protein food in order to live long. When they start eating high protein food like dog food, they develop health issues.

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Originally Posted by nachash

also if someone could explain how you get a part of post in the quote box that'd be stellar.... because apparently i don't know how too

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You're missing OTE] on [/QUOTE].

Rodent food like mazuri is not leftover human food, nor is a regular dog food.

A rat can 'survive' on eating garbage. A snake can survive on eating once every few months. But you're keeping live animals, and if you want breeding healthy feeders, then you must care properly for them. Some people can and do use a quality dog food with added fresh vegetable/fruit etc. By the time you get the stuff to make a healthy diet, you're spending more time mixing it up, storing it, buying it, and you might as well buy a quality food. After all, you're making the food for your breeding snakes, so you want healthy quality rats.

You wouldn't buy frozen rats that were unhealthy skinny dirty rodents, and you don't want to produce anything but top quality feeders if you're going to put forth the time and effort to breed your own.

I can't say how much food or bedding you'd use, because that will depend on how many rats, what type and size of enclosure etc etc. I have a LOT of rats, over 50 breeding females with another 20 or so adult males, a bin of up to a dozen replacement females growing up, and the feeder bin full of weanling-feeder size and some extra males that I might want to use as breeders later. So I have at least a hundred rats at any given time, more if the rats have been producing heavily, less if not. I use a 50 lb bag of rodent diet in a week to two weeks, and a bale of pine bedding in a week to two weeks. The bag of food is about $25 and the bale of bedding is $5. So it is about $15-30 a week, depending on how many rats I have alive at that point.

I buy my feed at a local feed store every other week, and the bales of bedding when it's convenient to drop by Tractor Supply(I like the store!) depending on weather since I have a truck. Sometimes I'll buy 4-5 bales of bedding and sometimes I end up with extra food since I'm using less food than I'm buying. The rats have a back bedroom with a window and in one week, it can get stinky. I could clean more often than once a week, and it'd be fine.

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Originally Posted by threezero

In any case why cant i feed rats human food? I'm not talking about junk food here, healthy maybe even raw food. Rats have survive on human scraps for millennium have they not? except for the food that is poisonous to them shouldn't they be ok?

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As has been stated, raw food to meet the dietary needs to keep a rat colony healthy will quickly surpass the time and money that you're currently spending to buy them from someone else. As far as I understand, supplementing or treating them once in a while with non-toxic raw kitchen scraps isn't a terrible idea, but it shouldn't constitute the bulk of their diet. For example, when I bought a box of cereal that it turns out I didn't like, I used it as an occasional treat for the rats instead of just throwing it out. When I cut up a cantaloupe I put the rinds in with them for a few hours so they can eat the remaining fruit before I throw it out. I find it's a good way to be less wasteful, but it's not reasonable to expect to grow healthy rats on nothing but your castoffs.

I can tell you now that 3 snakes is not worth it, even with the future babies. The only way it will be worth it is if you overproduce and sell the extras.

I really like this website for info on breeding and such: http://www.metalmonkeyexotics.com/blog/?page_id=163
You might want to look into raising African Soft-Furred rats if all you're going to have is BPs, but be aware that if sometimes the babies can be harder to sell if they refuse to eat regular rats.

I've been raising rats and mice since November, but have not completely paid off the initial costs plus the ongoing ones, even though I produce way more than I need and sell the extras. I have about 9 breeder girls that generally get a week break after a litter before going back to breed, which is healthier for them than back to back litters. I probably sell 90% of what I produce, so you can see, with the 6 snakes that I have (7th is a new rescue), if I didn't over-produce, it would actually cost me more money to breed my own, even if it was scaled down in size.

I bought a chest freezer from HomeDepot(free delivery). Then ordered frozen feeders in about a six month supply. Im glad I did.

Just my take on this, unless you plan on getting a lot more snakes you will be better off buying a small chest freezer and doing occasional large frozen orders. I have both a freezer and a large rat colony. But I also have 23snakes right now. For just 3 or 4 it won't be worth the hassle.

Agreeing its not worth it... I have 25 breeders at 1.4 and it's very time consuming. With ten snakes and my freezer broken it helps but soon I'll be switching back to frozen. Working full time as a restaurant manger taking care of a 2 month baby and the snakes takes a lot of time. I would shy away from it for the time being unless yours only eat live... Then maybe do a 1.2 or even 1.1 for small amounts of feeders to switch them over to frozen

I only have 3 snakes, But I also only have to female rats with one male. Works great for me, I spend probably $6 in food every two weeks and I buy large bags of aspen. Only been doing it for two months now but it has not ran out yet. I might add rats are ten bucks a piece for me in Newfoundland.

wow $10 a piece:O and i though ours were expensive. So you have a 1.2 colony for your three snake? what kind of system are you running to make sure there is always food every week? I assume your snake take small rats too?

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Originally Posted by threezero

wow $10 a piece:O and i though ours were expensive. So you have a 1.2 colony for your three snake? what kind of system are you running to make sure there is always food every week? I assume your snake take small rats too?

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Yup veryyyy expensive and mice are 5 dollars and are half the size of a weaned rat. Right now I have two corns and one ball. Corns are gonna eat the weaned rats, Once every two weeks. I did a lot of research and corns get fat if fed weanlings every week. My ball is adult female and eats small or medium rats. I did just start breeding because it is jst too much money realistically to be paying ten bucks a pop. I have had my rats for 2 months, they both had babies last week on had 12 one had 13. for me that is 250.00 worth of food :) So that is three months of food for me and that is with just two females. As soon as the babies are weaned I will put them back with the male an do this until I have a few month supply. Also I would like to add I feed f/t so I will be euthanizing them and freezing.

So it will take two months before you have small rats. But if you constantly have the two pregnant I dont see you running out. When your rats are over bred and you have a good supply, feed them off and when you start to get low get another couple. Or keep a couple Babies as they will need a couple months to get to breeding size.

I am starting a rat colony for 8 snakes because my frozen feeder supply has become unreliable, and it would not be cost effective enough to order bulk frozen feeders online. (Not to mention I do not have room for a second freezer, first freezer is full of raw frozen food for the dogs and cats).

If you are going to breed for your snakes (or for any reason really), you should be willing and able to provide top quality care. You are what you eat, and that applies to our animals as well. You want to feed your rats good quality food so your snakes are eating quality food. You also want to keep your breeders in good condition so they will produce. An animal fed an improper diet may be able to reproduce, but it will be harder on their body and the litter may not be as big, strong, or grow as quickly as an animal that was provided a better diet. Finally, quality rat blocks really is the cheapest diet. I buy rat blocks for $0.70 per pound. A complete, healthy homemade diet for the rats is possible but it is NOT going to be cheaper than $0.70 a pound! It will also contain a lot more water than rat block (in terms of produce content, which would be necessary to provide proper vitamins and some minerals), which will mean the rats end up eating even more of it. Rat blocks really are the way to go, in terms of time, ease, and money.

You can experiment with different types of bedding, but wood shavings are one of the cheapest beddings out there. I recently stocked up on a paper bedding because a local home improvement store was selling them for $4.99 per bale, cheaper than anything else I've found. This is an acceptable alternative.

I use a variety diet of rat block, romain lettuce, fruit and boiled egg for a treat for the moms. It is great after birth for protein buildup. Also I tried stuff like care fresh, recycled paper. But I found it to be horrible for smell. I just use aspen.

thanks for all the input guys, i'm seriously thinking about start a small colony of my own in a month or 2. Can any of you guys with small rat colony post your setup? i'm thinking about just having them in separate tubs but would be nice if there is a more efficient way of going about it.

This is my current set-up, except I now have a water system set up instead of water bottles.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...ps6b140d6d.jpg

This is a pretty efficient use of space and time. I just check to make sure they have food each day, check the lickers to make sure they are functioning properly, takes maybe 5 minutes. Cleaning day takes about 10-15 minutes, unless I am doing a more thorough cleaning with scrubbing. It was pretty easy and inexpensive to build too.

so i will have the house all to myself for a few weeks. time to do move some new furnitures in:P. I overstock on some small rats and have been raising them to be feed off. I'm already really liking these little bugger and am getting a little excited about breeding for food and for fun.

I'm looking at a 1.2 or 1.3 colony for my three snakes I don't think i will be doing the rotating thing. I'm just gonna leave them all in a colony till the mothers are pregnant. Now a couple question I have

-can let the mother raise the babies all together? (3 mothers in 1 tub) or do I have to seperate them?
-how many tubs should i prepared or make for a rack using the colony method?
-should i keep extra males on hand?
-would it be ok to keep the rack in a outdoor none insulated greenhouse? (hot up to 28degree and cold up to -5degree celsius) I can heat it up in the winter but its pretty hard to cool down on a super super sunny day. On the plus side its super ventilated

I have 3 baby males right now from the pet store, I'm going to feed off 1 or 2 of them and use the leftover as breeder. Also going to pick up a pair of 7 month old females of CL so I can get start asap. Appreciate it if you pros can give me some tips and pointers and tell me if i'm overlooking anything :D

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Originally Posted by threezero

-can let the mother raise the babies all together? (3 mothers in 1 tub) or do I have to seperate them?

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You may be able to, or may not. I know some people here have successfully left mothers together. When I bred pet rats, I kept mothers separated. This time around I tried leaving the mothers together, and one mom decided all the babies were HERS, and the other mom let her, resulting in one rat trying to feed and care for 21 babies. Well it didn't work out so well, and 4 babies died. Next time I'm going to go ahead and separate next time to make sure this does not happen again.


-how many tubs should i prepared or make for a rack using the colony method?

Depending on how you want to set them up... I would say at least 4 tubs: one for breeder males and one for breeder females (if you choose to let females raise the babies together and separate the males at some point to give the females a rest), and 1 additional for growing males and 1 for growing females. Personally, I'd go ahead and throw in a couple extra tubs just to be on the safe side.


-should i keep extra males on hand?

Personally I'd go ahead and keep extra males on hand. You never know what may happen - a male could get sick and die, injured some how, maybe he turns up infertile, or after a litter or two you find out he's passing on some deletrious genetic condition. Just to be on the safe side and prepare for the worst (while hoping for the best), keep at least one or two extra males on hand to replace males that may not be quite up to par.


-would it be ok to keep the rack in a outdoor none insulated greenhouse? (hot up to 28degree and cold up to -5degree celsius) I can heat it up in the winter but its pretty hard to cool down on a super super sunny day. On the plus side its super ventilated

With heat during cool temperatures, that would be ok. The hot temperatures are a little on the high side for rats (most comfortable at 60-70F), which may result in reduced productivity.