Breeding vs Store bought feeders

This one's for everyone who feeds live mice. Do you breed your feeders or do you buy them from the strore as you need them? I've thought about breeding them but idk what would be more efficient... I've got 4 ball pythons, 3 are around 300 grams the other is around 450 grams. All estimates of course. Lol. I really need to get a scale. Any input would help alot. Thanks in advance.

In my area its either breed or frozen. Local stores don't have rats smaller them about 100 grams. Buying live every week gets expensive.

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Unfortunately for me my snakes wont eat f/t or live rats for that matter. The only thing I can seem to get them to eat is live mice. Which leaves me with breeding or buying them every week.

We have been breeding rats when it started to cost us $55 a week to feed our rats. Actually we bought from our local pet store. Costing us $55 a week. Then we built a rat rack to hold rats for a couple of weeks so we can buy them while sale from a breeder directly. Which help us save money by costing us around $30-35 every two weeks. And now we have six established female rats that have produced very well for us. So we haven't had to buy for about a month or two. So we have been saving $$


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Originally Posted by Brad91

Unfortunately for me my snakes wont eat f/t or live rats for that matter. The only thing I can seem to get them to eat is live mice. Which leaves me with breeding or buying them every week.

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We had a couple of mice that were pregnant. Buy we have them to a friend because they produced 15-16 mice and we didn't need that many. But I didn't even know that they were pregnant until I saw little pink sausage looking things in the bins. But you apparently have to be very careful because they will become very protective and eat the babies if they think that you are taking them.


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I breed for my collection a) it does save money when you have a mid-large size collection of snakes or various reptiles b) it's just nice having the appropriate sized feeder when you want it and c) you can maintain the highest of standards for your feeders and in turn ensure your snakes are getting the best.

Alright, so as far as saving money goes I'd be better off breeding them than buying on a weekly basis? Not sure what mouse food costs but I'm spending almost $30 a week on snake food right now.

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Originally Posted by Brad91

Alright, so as far as saving money goes I'd be better off breeding them than buying on a weekly basis? Not sure what mouse food costs but I'm spending almost $30 a week on snake food right now.

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We buy a 50 pound feed bag of rat food for $22, I know they have the same size but for nice. Don't know how much it is for mice though. But that bag last us for a month or two. Then the racks cost use $150. Each bin was $6. And then the interconnected water was like $25 more. Then if you plan to have bedding for them, that's also a cost.


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That doesn't sound too bad. I can make a rack out of those plastic shelving bins with holes drilled to hold water bottles. And bedding would be cheap too. I can get 25lb bags of pine or cedar at a farm and garden store for about $10. I'm really starting to lean towards breeding. It sounds so much simpler to just do it that way. :)

In the long run its cheapest to produce your own feeders. Just some things to consider.

What will you do if you have too many feeders and they outgrow your snakes?

Do you still have somewhere to buy live in case your feeders are too small for a given feeding?

The time to care for the rats now as well as the snakes.

Invest in a watering system. It's a big time saver

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Originally Posted by Brad91

That doesn't sound too bad. I can make a rack out of those plastic shelving bins with holes drilled to hold water bottles. And bedding would be cheap too. I can get 25lb bags of pine or cedar at a farm and garden store for about $10. I'm really starting to lean towards breeding. It sounds so much simpler to just do it that way. :)

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Cedar is bad for snakes and remember what your rats touch/ eat will go in to your snake. Try aspen or sheredded newspaper.

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Originally Posted by Brad91

That doesn't sound too bad. I can make a rack out of those plastic shelving bins with holes drilled to hold water bottles. And bedding would be cheap too. I can get 25lb bags of pine or cedar at a farm and garden store for about $10. I'm really starting to lean towards breeding. It sounds so much simpler to just do it that way. :)

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We did water bottles. And trust me we were in and out everyday getting more and more water for them. I really would consider a water system. It makes it ten times easier to have


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The more snakes you have makes breeding better too. Always a snake that can eat a certain size :)

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Originally Posted by Brad91

This one's for everyone who feeds live mice. Do you breed your feeders or do you buy them from the strore as you need them? I've thought about breeding them but idk what would be more efficient... I've got 4 ball pythons, 3 are around 300 grams the other is around 450 grams. All estimates of course. Lol. I really need to get a scale. Any input would help alot. Thanks in advance.

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Judging by their weight, they should be young enough and not stubborn in their ways to switch to f/t. How often do you feed them? Let them go around 4 weeks without food to get them hungry. Heat a f/t mouse in hot water until its body temp is 90+ degrees. That should do the trick. If it doesn't, then wait 2 weeks before trying again. My apologies if you tried that method already. I've cared for 30+ ball pythons, but only have one live eater because she was 5 years old when i got her and she was fed live her whole life. I normally don't have any trouble switching them from live to f/t.

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Originally Posted by collrak

Judging by their weight, they should be young enough and not stubborn in their ways to switch to f/t. How often do you feed them? Let them go around 4 weeks without food to get them hungry. Heat a f/t mouse in hot water until its body temp is 90+ degrees. That should do the trick. If it doesn't, then wait 2 weeks before trying again. My apologies if you tried that method already. I've cared for 30+ ball pythons, but only have one live eater because she was 5 years old when i got her and she was fed live her whole life. I normally don't have any trouble switching them from live to f/t.

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I tried that unfortunately... They went from November 12th to February 23rd without eating... I finally gave them each a large adult live mouse on the 23rd and they all ate right away. No need to apologize, I would've tried it had I not already. They're just so stubborn. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Billy305

Cedar is bad for snakes and remember what your rats touch/ eat will go in to your snake. Try aspen or sheredded newspaper.

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I knew cedar was bad for reptiles but I never thought about it being ingested by eating mice that were in it. Thanks for the heads up, I'll be sure to stay away from that.

Snakes are pretty stubborn. They only do what they want and eat what they want.


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I'm building up a colony of rats for my snakes. I would do the same if they only ate mice. For me... the problem is my prior source of f/t is now very unreliable and I am having to buy live and prekill, which is MUCH more expensive (around $24 a week, which is what i was spending on f/t every couple of months!). I build a rack with 6 tubs, I need to look at the receipt, but I believe it cost less than $50. Right now using water bottles, but I have the supplies to set up a watering system, just need to sit down and do it. Rodent food will cost me $0.70 per pound, and a local store has big bales of bedding for $4.99 each (I have bedding now, but I'm going to buy a few bales to store up any way, I have never seen a better price!). Since my snakes do eat f/t, I will be able to grow up to the right size, and then kill and freeze to save for later. Would be a little more complicated and probably require more planning if the snakes only ate live though. In the end, I really didn't want to breed my own food, I was happy buying the f/t, but now with that source being so unreliable I am forced to do this (can't order online, don't have the storage space required to make the money worth it!). Ultimately, I'll know what is going into my feeders and how they grew up too.

1) I use pine for both snakes and rats and have yet to have an issue. I have talked to people on here that have been around long enough to see husbandry advice change greatly over time and was told by them that pine is fine. I bought a 14 CF bag of "softwood shavings" for less than $8 at a Big R, which is where I also get my 50# bags of Mazuri feed, and unless I lose a snake I won't be switching back to aspen that costs twice as much as pine. I trust the people on here that gave me the advice on pine.

2) The 50# bags of Mazuri cost me about $30 per bag and even with 6 adult rats it is looking like each abg will be lasting me at least two months. Even if it is only two months, that is $15 per month for food and maybe $3 per month for bedding, so less per month than I used to spend every week (Used to spend over $25 a week for all 8 of the snakes that I'd feed on a weekly basis). Once you get the cost of the rack off-set you will save a great deal, as mice will use even less bedding and food, and the 6F from Mazuri that I use would work for the mice - it is a rodent breeder, not just rat breeder, diet.

3) Plumbing would be fine if you wanted to do it but the bottles that I use are half gallon and I fill them less than once a week. Just something to think about.

Best of luck with whatever you do!

I breed my own. It's not for everyone but if you have the space and get setup to do it right it can be cheaper and ensure good quality feeders. I do a mortar tub rack with harlan lab block that I got from Reptile Basics.

http://www.reptilebasics.com/harlan2018

Now that I have finished reading the thread I should say. Kiln dried pine would be ok for adult feeders but I wouldn't use it for breeders. Aspen is only slightly more expensive. I have a watering system that I got from reptile basics and it works great. You can find great tutorials on watering systems and rack setups on this site and others. http://www.reptilebasics.com/rodent-watering/

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Now that I have finished reading the thread I should say. Kiln dried pine would be ok for adult feeders but I wouldn't use it for breeders. Aspen is only slightly more expensive. I have a watering system that I got from reptile basics and it works great. You can find great tutorials on watering systems and rack setups on this site and others. http://www.reptilebasics.com/rodent-watering/

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Mind if I ask why you wouldn't use it for breeders? Fumes maybe? It does put off a strong smell but I'm not aware of anything about the fumes being toxic...

One thing I have yet to see mentioned is the smell/care.

A small colony not a big deal, but it always starts small and grows. Your time is worth something, the smell can become unpleasurable for yourself, friends, guests etc... I know if I didn't own a 3 story (where im able to contain) house I would not be able to justify the smell. And I'm a fanatic of cleanliness, it doesn't matter it creeps!!

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Originally Posted by medusasmorphs

One thing I have yet to see mentioned is the smell/care.

A small colony not a big deal, but it always starts small and grows. Your time is worth something, the smell can become unpleasurable for yourself, friends, guests etc... I know if I didn't own a 3 story (where im able to contain) house I would not be able to justify the smell. And I'm a fanatic of cleanliness, it doesn't matter it creeps!!

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Yeah the smell isn't for everyone lol. If you clean often enough it's not that bad but I wouldn't personally do it inside. Only in my garage

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Originally Posted by collrak

Judging by their weight, they should be young enough and not stubborn in their ways to switch to f/t. How often do you feed them? Let them go around 4 weeks without food to get them hungry. Heat a f/t mouse in hot water until its body temp is 90+ degrees. That should do the trick. If it doesn't, then wait 2 weeks before trying again. My apologies if you tried that method already. I've cared for 30+ ball pythons, but only have one live eater because she was 5 years old when i got her and she was fed live her whole life. I normally don't have any trouble switching them from live to f/t.

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I'll have to try that again for my bp's. Of course they go 4 weeks without eating on their own sometimes, even though I offer every week.

As others have mentioned breeding isn't for everyone. But if your going to go that route:
1) Build a rack- it's much, much easier to maintain than lab boxes/individual cages.
2) Water system- this is by far the single most time saving thing you do for yourself. When I was using water bottles I found myself having to re-fill them daily.
3) Oder Control: A few tricks I found that help. Add a few drops of vanilla extract to the water supply. That helps reduce the urine smell. Clean out the cages at least 1x week more often if you can. Look into Carbon Air Filters/Scrubbers.

4)Overstock: Mice reproduce fast if your not careful. At some points you will end up with excess mice- luckily most ball pythons will take a full grown mouse so you don't have to worry about the feeders out-growing your bp's. You will have to worry about the fact you have 80+ mice and your bp's have gone off feed for the winter. Figure out a back-up plan now. Selling the excess on CL, killing and freezing, etc.

6)Understock: Mice/rats tend to slow down their breeding in colder months. They also eat their own sometimes. So at some points your going to have to have a backup supply to feed your snakes.

7)Understanding significant others: This is probably the most important factor. I'm lucky that my gf is very understanding and willing to put up with the mouse colony in the garage that she has to walk past everyday on her way to and from her car. The smell, the noise, the smell, the mess, and did I mention the smell? No matter what your going to have some smell- it's just matter of how bad. Some days she's even nice enough to feed and water so I don't have to do that after my 12hr+ work day. She's a keeper- even though I know she hates the mice. As she tells me often. :)

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Mind if I ask why you wouldn't use it for breeders? Fumes maybe? It does put off a strong smell but I'm not aware of anything about the fumes being toxic...

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I used to breed fancy rats in addition to "regular" feeder rats, and Pine actually can trigger cancerous growths and severe respiratory problems in rodents kept on it for long periods of time. You won't notice it right away, and sometimes not for months, but pine does cause significant health problems in rodents you are keeping for prolonged periods of time.

A healthy breeder is a good breeder, so since you will be maintaining them for a longer period of time than most feeders, stands to reason to keep them on something other than pine - they'll struggle less with breathing problems (you notice a bit of smell - imagine a rodent with a sense of smell dozens, if not hundreds of times better than your own, living 1 - 2" away from the bedding!) and should live longer and produce more/stronger offspring.

I actually noticed that several rats I initially started my feeder colony with that were developing tumors as adults had them stop growing once I removed them from pine and put them on the same recycled newspaper bedding I was using for the 'fancy' rats. As I had a relatively large colony of rats (60 adults at one point), I did notice that there was a substantial decrease in respiratory issues once I eliminated pine - it may not be AS toxic as cedar, and is alright short term, but if you really want to maintain healthy rodents long term, I highly recommend a substrate other than pine. I used a relatively pricey bedding at the time (carefresh), but Gentle Touch is a pelleted aspen bedding that absorbs moisture and smell extremely well and is what we use in the stores. I wish I'd known of Gentle Touch when I was breeding rats, the stuff works wonders on odor and would have been a lifesaver for me back then!

Just my 2 cents! :)

-Jen

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Originally Posted by LLLReptile

I used to breed fancy rats in addition to "regular" feeder rats, and Pine actually can trigger cancerous growths and severe respiratory problems in rodents kept on it for long periods of time. You won't notice it right away, and sometimes not for months, but pine does cause significant health problems in rodents you are keeping for prolonged periods of time.

A healthy breeder is a good breeder, so since you will be maintaining them for a longer period of time than most feeders, stands to reason to keep them on something other than pine - they'll struggle less with breathing problems (you notice a bit of smell - imagine a rodent with a sense of smell dozens, if not hundreds of times better than your own, living 1 - 2" away from the bedding!) and should live longer and produce more/stronger offspring.

I actually noticed that several rats I initially started my feeder colony with that were developing tumors as adults had them stop growing once I removed them from pine and put them on the same recycled newspaper bedding I was using for the 'fancy' rats. As I had a relatively large colony of rats (60 adults at one point), I did notice that there was a substantial decrease in respiratory issues once I eliminated pine - it may not be AS toxic as cedar, and is alright short term, but if you really want to maintain healthy rodents long term, I highly recommend a substrate other than pine. I used a relatively pricey bedding at the time (carefresh), but Gentle Touch is a pelleted aspen bedding that absorbs moisture and smell extremely well and is what we use in the stores. I wish I'd known of Gentle Touch when I was breeding rats, the stuff works wonders on odor and would have been a lifesaver for me back then!

Just my 2 cents! :)

-Jen

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I'm on the other side of the fence on this one. I have never, ever heard of pine and tumors having anything to do with eachother. I keep a few dozen breeders on pine and have for many years. I think in the last 5 years I might have seen 3 tumors on what has to be several thousand rats that have passed through my hands. I don't think there's a pine tumor cause and effect, more a coincidence in Jen's instance.

I know before I met my wife . I bred my own rodent ( replacing them ever so often with new ones to help keep the genes open and production at it peak.
since we moved together it been a pain buying 10-15 different rodents every week) they not cheap. I want to look into building a rodent rack and start my own breeding again as I can sell my extras off to the local pet stores.

I buy off of the guy who suppies the mice for the pet stores in my area. he knows we buy for snakes so he sells them cheaper and in bulk. I only buy what i need on a 3 week rotation incase creatures dont eat or whatever. I dont have room to breed my own but I think it would be smelly and more of a hassel then it is worth.

Sorry it took me some time to get back to you. Pinkies are going to be more sensitive to the remaining pine oils because they have no fur.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Sorry it took me some time to get back to you. Pinkies are going to be more sensitive to the remaining pine oils because they have no fur.

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Any thoughts on this, Wilomn? I have never heard of rats having sensitive skin or natural pine oil being an irritant. Is this just what you have decided on your own or did you get the information from somehwere specific? Not being an jerk, just honestly asking.

I would be interested in that answer as well, as I currently keep all my breeders on kiln dried pine.