Ridiculed for live feeding

Man I was just on another site and was jumped on by three posters for feeding live rats. And I mean they went on and on about how cruel I was, and how could I breed rats without the proper knowledge of breeding techniques and risking my snake being bit. Oh and I was cruel for killing a rat for defending itself after I put into an enclosure to be eaten by a snake. I assured them I dont enjoy watching the rat suffer but it has to be done. My snakes don't want f/t rats and I don't feel that I should force them to stop doing something that is natural to them

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oh no, not a live feeder!! :rolleyes:

Call me king of cruel then ...

Wow, I hope those same people feel terribly for eating their steak or chicken or pork.... which, by the way, is killed more inhumanely than the rat/mouse. I feel terribly about feeding live as well, but at least snakes are doing so to survive, not to consume extravagantly like some humans do.


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They did realize they were in a reptile forum right?? ;)

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Originally Posted by ironpython

Man I was just on another site

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Hippie Rodent lovers.com?

People are so hypacritical. :mad: I feed f/t, but that does not mean I think feeding live is wrong. I have, and will again, feed live to my female BP who's a pain about eating at times. Live or f/t is a personal choice as long as it is done responsibly and no one has the right to tell you that one way or another is wrong. Snakes eat rodents. If they don't like that, they shouldn't own snakes or disrespect others for how they feed.

*Sorry, I think my pain meds are making me ramble a bit. Just got frustrated at how hypocritical people can actually be....... :P

IT HAPPENS CONSTANTLY IN NATURE!!!!!!:taz::taz::taz::taz::taz::taz::taz:

Nimkim, that's the second time you stated something about the animals we eat being killed inhumanly. How are any of those processes worse than being choked to death?



I just don't understand how any snake keeper can have a problem feeding live. If they keep snakes and have never had to feed live they are either new to the hobby or have not had enough snakes.

Yes. F/T is widely found in the grasslands of Africa.
But being serious here, live can be fed safe and responsibly. Just as F/T can be dangerous if done irresponsibly as well.

And uhh......What special breeding techniques do you need to maintain a rodent colony? :confused:
It's not rocket science or a Giant Panda breeding program. You just have male + females + clean enclosure + good food + water...............

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It was on a Facebook site exotic pets of Georgia. I just where someone was defending me on there. The girls who were just going at me are rat breeders. But at least one says she has reptiles. But she feeds humanely euthanized with co2 rats only.

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there is another forum out there with a completely different environment than this forum. its surprising how much the views are different between the two.

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Originally Posted by ironpython

It was on a Facebook site exotic pets of Georgia. I just where someone was defending me on there. The girls who were just going at me are rat breeders. But at least one says she has reptiles. But she feeds humanely euthanized with co2 rats only.

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they don't realize that whether the snake constricts them or they die from CO2, they are still getting suffocated to death. as CO2 competes for space in the lungs, it keeps oxygen from properly transferring. same kind of feeling as holding your breath for too long. same kind of feeling as suffocating to death. they could argue that the snake squeezing it hurts the rat more. you could ask them if they've ever felt the burn from inhaling CO2. I've seen snakes kill rats quicker than CO2 chambers and vice versa. either way, the rats gotta die and your snakes gotta eat. its the circle of life.

There is nothing wrong with feeding live if you do it correctly. Thats something everybody should be aware of.

In truth, the snake would be far quicker than a CO2 chamber. It might look more humane for them to be "put to sleep", but the constrictor is built to kill the rodent in a matter of seconds by 1) suffocation and 2) stopping the heart. While being bitten and then constricted would be very frightening to the rodent...they do not suffer from it for very long at all, their death comes very swiftly. Keep in mind that in the wild, snakes are designed to find their prey, catch it and dispatch of it quickly in an effort to maintain important energy that is better put to use in escaping from their predators. ;)

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Originally Posted by satomi325

And uhh......What special breeding techniques do you need to maintain a rodent colony? :confused:
It's not rocket science or a Giant Panda breeding program. You just have male + females + clean enclosure + good food + water...............

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That's my biggest pet peeve with mammalian breeders. I understand their concern about someone breeding animals they will not care about/not find homes for, genetic issues, etc. (we worry about the same things) but the absolute rabid "WHATAREYOUTHINKINGOHMYGOD" reaction you get if you breed rats/mice/whatever outside of the pet circles is alarming.

Breeding rodents for feeders isn't rocket science. The issue is that you went to where there's a more pet owners/breeders than reptile and feeder-breeders. When you go on a site full of pet breeders/show breeders/pet owners, you can't start spouting off about how you're throwing live pets to a snake and not expect to get some blowback.

What if someone came here who owns snakes and also started talking about how they were going to raise a lot of cheap balls up to make leather from them? Would most of the people here think it was okay as long as the snakes were killed humanely? Would it matter that in the wild, snakes are killed all the time in horrible ways by other animals or by humans to harvest meat and skins? No, because THIS is a forum devoted to people who love snakes as pets.

Most rat breeders who breed for pets or show are correct in thinking that breeding rats isn't easy... in THEIR goals. To get a good conformation, great color, great coat, great disposition rat that will live a long and healthy life takes a LOT of work to combine the right lines to get exactly what you want. To breed a healthy feeder takes much much less work. They don't understand that a feeder rodent doesn't need to meet conformation rules or coat color particulars. It also doesn't matter much if they COULD grow to only 2 years old or they would make it to 4 years old... when most are killed at less than 6 months! What matters is litter size, health and growth.

I personally breed for ears, coat, color, conformation, and temperament in my rats. I keep pedigree charts for everyone. They aren't some run of the mill feeders. I sell pets. I haven't sold a rat as a feeder yet. The only difference is that I also happen to feed off some of the offspring to my snakes.
And still don't find breeding very difficult.
Idk. Maybe its just me..........


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Personally I view feeding f/t or live as a personal choice. I feed f/t, but I don't harass people for feeding live. Mostly due to the fact that the mouse/rat dies either way.

I feed both f/t and live. With the live I just stun them though and it's over before the rat has a clue what's going on. Then I throw each rat a little funeral.

You animal!!! =P

I feed live as well. Mine don't like f/t either.

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Originally Posted by Lesserlove

I feed both f/t and live. With the live I just stun them though and it's over before the rat has a clue what's going on. Then I throw each rat a little funeral.

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I heard stunning can be counter-productive. Like if they come to before getting struck they can be ticked off (naturally) and take it out on what they see, the snake.

Have you had an issue with this or seen them come to their senses angry? Just more of a personal curiosity.

I haven't no all of mine that I do feed live are aggressive eaters and when I stun them... I'm so paranoid about them biting my snakes, they'd have to not be touched at all for them to come to lol I've accidentally killed a few from stunning them too... Roughly... That I felt bad about lol

"Stunning" a live rat is much more inhumane than CO2 or just straight live feeding. If you are feeding appropriately sized prey items, there should be no reason to try to "stun" the rat. Also, there are too many things that can go wrong. What if you have a snake refuse a rat that you decided to "stun?" Sounds like a rat suffering unnecessarily to me. If your snakes have aggressive feeding responses, why not just put the rat in the tub and let the snake do its thing? Just stand by with a pencil, marker, snake hook, popsicle stick or something to put in the rat's mouth if it starts trying to bite.

Feeding live is perfectly safe when it's being done correctly and responsibly. "Stunning" (aka bashing in a rat's head with the intent of injuring, not quickly dispatching) is inhumane and unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Lesserlove

I haven't no all of mine that I do feed live are aggressive eaters and when I stun them... I'm so paranoid about them biting my snakes, they'd have to not be touched at all for them to come to lol I've accidentally killed a few from stunning them too... Roughly... That I felt bad about lol

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Ok. Was just curious since I heard it and getting a response from a person that does it.

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Originally Posted by Lesserlove

I haven't no all of mine that I do feed live are aggressive eaters and when I stun them... I'm so paranoid about them biting my snakes, they'd have to not be touched at all for them to come to lol I've accidentally killed a few from stunning them too... Roughly... That I felt bad about lol

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I'm not sure I understand why you felt bad about killing a rat when you whacked its head, but you don't when you only hit it hard enough to make it semi-conscious and potentially still able to feel when the snake snags it? If the snakes eat it this way, and you are opposed to having "real" live rats in the tank, why don't you just prekill the rats to save them the potential pain of waking up, and save the snakes the risk of a terrified and potentially dangerous feeder?

I disagree. No matter what size rat they all have teeth, and even with a rat being captured quickly by my aggressive eaters isn't going to stop the rat from biting. And the idea of putting a Popsicle stick in the mouth right as the rat is being wrapped up, there's no way I would be quick enough to beat an instinctual bite. IMO I would rather stun the rat and reduce risks of my snake being bit and keep the rat in a clueless state. I started doing this after my pinstripe was bit. But, like I said that's my opinion and I haven't had any problems since with him or my spider being bit.


Edit: My pinstripe won't touch it if it's not moving. For the one I killed I gave it to one of my snakes I normally fed f/t.

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Originally Posted by Lesserlove

I disagree. No matter what size rat they all have teeth, and even with a rat being captured quickly by my aggressive eaters isn't going to stop the rat from biting. And the idea of putting a Popsicle stick in the mouth right as the rat is being wrapped up, there's no way I would be quick enough to beat an instinctual bite. IMO I would rather stun the rat and reduce risks of my snake being bit and keep the rat in a clueless state. I started doing this after my pinstripe was bit. But, like I said that's my opinion and I haven't had any problems since with him or my spider being bit.


Edit: My pinstripe won't touch it if it's not moving. For the one I killed I gave it to one of my snakes I normally fed f/t.

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Ive had a snake get bit while constricting a live rat before. Oh well, poop happens, next problem and moving on. Not an issue, I have lots of snakes with scars, IDK from where as I bought them that way, but it doesnt bother me a bit, Im breeding them, not flipping them. When you feed live, there is a chance of them biting even under your watchful eye, I do not see it as an issue. She still gets live rats, her fault if she bites them in the butt and not the face.

That being said, there are many other forums, even reptile and snake ones that do not promote live feeding. I suppose this is more so on venomous forums than others. They know people do it, some of them do it, sometimes you HAVE to do it, but the thing is they dont go around everywhere throwing up pictures and videos of live animals being killed on facebook and youtube or even their own forum. I sometimes find the culture here of how excited people get from live feeding and getting bit from their BP strange when in many other places that kind of thing is frowned upon....

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Originally Posted by Lesserlove

I disagree. No matter what size rat they all have teeth, and even with a rat being captured quickly by my aggressive eaters isn't going to stop the rat from biting. And the idea of putting a Popsicle stick in the mouth right as the rat is being wrapped up, there's no way I would be quick enough to beat an instinctual bite. IMO I would rather stun the rat and reduce risks of my snake being bit and keep the rat in a clueless state. I started doing this after my pinstripe was bit. But, like I said that's my opinion and I haven't had any problems since with him or my spider being bit.


Edit: My pinstripe won't touch it if it's not moving. For the one I killed I gave it to one of my snakes I normally fed f/t.

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You don't have to try to put a stick in the rat's mouth the second the snake strikes. You should only have to intervene IF the snake grabs the rat in a way that leaves the head free to move, and where the rat's head is facing the right direction to be able to bite. You're creating your own mental justification for causing undue stress and unnecessary suffering to these rats. How many times have you fed live, not "stunned", not pre-killed? Do you think that your snake is really that fragile, that you have to cause the feeder pain and suffering to try to prevent some highly unlikely scenario from happening? What do you think is going to happen to your snake if the rat DOES manage to bite it while being constricted?

I will never understand anyone who thinks "stunning" is ok. You're ok with bashing a rat's head intending to injure, not kill, yet you feel bad when you manage to give the rat a quick end rather than prolonged pain and suffering?

Both my Ball Pythons eat live rats....They have never taken a F/T rat.....Snakes eat live in the wild, so how is that inhumane?? Its nature...Just like some fish ( Oscars, ect.) eat live goldfish....If your BP is anything like mine, they strike fast, and are very strong...The rat is dead almost instantly..:snake:

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Originally Posted by KMG

Nimkim, that's the second time you stated something about the animals we eat being killed inhumanly. How are any of those processes worse than being choked to death?



I just don't understand how any snake keeper can have a problem feeding live. If they keep snakes and have never had to feed live they are either new to the hobby or have not had enough snakes.

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I've been keeping snakes for 20 years. My collection has ranged from just 2 or 3 to almost 300 at any given time. Ive kept everything from corn snakes to retics, and arboreal vipers to gaboon's. So I thinks it's safe to say that I have a fair amount of experience. And honestly I can't recall a single snake in all this time that has refused to eat f/t feeders. I've had animals that for a time I've had no choice but to feed live, so I have done it when necessary. But with a little effort I've never come across one that can't be converted, even many that I have been told will not ever eat f/t. I don't disagree with feeding live. I just don't understand why anyone would she f/t is so much safer and convenient.

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

You don't have to try to put a stick in the rat's mouth the second the snake strikes. You should only have to intervene IF the snake grabs the rat in a way that leaves the head free to move, and where the rat's head is facing the right direction to be able to bite. You're creating your own mental justification for causing undue stress and unnecessary suffering to these rats. How many times have you fed live, not "stunned", not pre-killed? Do you think that your snake is really that fragile, that you have to cause the feeder pain and suffering to try to prevent some highly unlikely scenario from happening? What do you think is going to happen to your snake if the rat DOES manage to bite it while being constricted?

I will never understand anyone who thinks "stunning" is ok. You're ok with bashing a rat's head intending to injure, not kill, yet you feel bad when you manage to give the rat a quick end rather than prolonged pain and suffering?

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Well you are entitled to your opinion and your ways of feeding and so am I, I'm sorry I have upset you.

I just switched from f/t to live. and now my snake is getting fatter ALOT faster

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Originally Posted by KMG

I just don't understand how any snake keeper can have a problem feeding live. If they keep snakes and have never had to feed live they are either new to the hobby or have not had enough snakes.

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My my my, we certainly are arrogant, aren't we?

In my world, your understanding is not necessary to anything. I would encourage others to visit my little planet, it's an interesting place where you don't have to give a rat's ass what anyone thinks.

What colour are your blinders? I know it's something opaque, but I'm curious if you only see black and white like your post implies.

As far as ridicule, if you ask for it, as the OP, unintentionally(?) did, then learn. Either don't repeat the action causing you discomfort, or ... well, you'll figure it out. Hopefully.

Getting all butt hurt over the opinions of people you'll never meet and honestly probably don't care about anyway is sort of foolish.

Well I started out Strictly a live feeder until a shortage forced me to either go Quayle or frozen thawed and I will say that I picked frozen thawed and never looked back! I do how ever start all hatchlings on live and switch as soon as each Hatchling will accept the frozen, But recently I had to get some live because the price was so good I could not pass it up but did not miss them little Cute rats getting Squished at all. GO Frozen!:) (My Opinion)
Live a rat Bite free life! lol

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Originally Posted by wilomn

getting all butt hurt over the opinions of people you'll never meet and honestly probably don't care about anyway is sort of foolish.

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amen too this

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Originally Posted by jason_ladouceur

I've been keeping snakes for 20 years. My collection has ranged from just 2 or 3 to almost 300 at any given time. Ive kept everything from corn snakes to retics, and arboreal vipers to gaboon's. So I thinks it's safe to say that I have a fair amount of experience. And honestly I can't recall a single snake in all this time that has refused to eat f/t feeders. I've had animals that for a time I've had no choice but to feed live, so I have done it when necessary. But with a little effort I've never come across one that can't be converted, even many that I have been told will not ever eat f/t. I don't disagree with feeding live. I just don't understand why anyone would she f/t is so much safer and convenient.

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I would be interested in hearing some of your techniques for switching adult bp's who have been fed live over to f/t. Any tricks of the trade you would like to share?

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I would be interested in hearing some of your techniques for switching adult bp's who have been fed live over to f/t. Any tricks of the trade you would like to share?

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It's been quite a few years since I've needed to since I've only kept a few bp's in recent years and they have all been acquired as babies. But back in the mid 90's I did have a small group of them, and at the time almost all bp's available were wc. I've found though that the most important "trick" is having your husbandry spot on. If the snake feels secure and hungry IME they will eat anything that triggers there feeding sensors. Beyond that just the usual tips. Very warm feeder, I prefer them dry because I don't like them covered in chipped aspen. Keeping the lights in the room as dark as possible. Red light works well for this. Slow movements, you want the snake focused on the feeder not on you. And most importantly patience. Just because you have 1 or a couple of failed attempts don't give up. The snake is not going to starve to death because it misses a couple of meals. In fact the hungrier it gets the better your odds for success are.

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Originally Posted by jason_ladouceur

It's been quite a few years since I've needed to since I've only kept a few bp's in recent years and they have all been acquired as babies. But back in the mid 90's I did have a small group of them, and at the time almost all bp's available were wc. I've found though that the most important "trick" is having your husbandry spot on. If the snake feels secure and hungry IME they will eat anything that triggers there feeding sensors. Beyond that just the usual tips. Very warm feeder, I prefer them dry because I don't like them covered in chipped aspen. Keeping the lights in the room as dark as possible. Red light works well for this. Slow movements, you want the snake focused on the feeder not on you. And most importantly patience. Just because you have 1 or a couple of failed attempts don't give up. The snake is not going to starve to death because it misses a couple of meals. In fact the hungrier it gets the better your odds for success are.

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Thanks, I appreciate it. I think my problem has been giving in too quickly, ie not getting them hungry enough.

I find the issue that people have with trying to get a live feeder to eat FT is either the prey isn't warmed up enough or properly, OR they don't do the zombie rat dance properly.

Ball pythons seem to be picky about how much movement they want in the prey. If you wave it around too much, the snake might get intimidated. Not enough and it doesn't catch the snake's interest. Once you master the steps of a good zombie rat dance, then you shouldn't have too much issue getting it to eat. I also seem to have to tug the dead rat's tail a few times once the snake hits it. I think the python believes it's "struggling" and so it really won't realize the rat was dead already. That's probably just me and my personal "old wives tale" type idea though.

Mostly I feed live because it's handier to me than having to dance a dead rat over and over on feeding day. But I'll be the first to say that a FT rat never bit a snake either. To each their own and there's no "one right way".

I only feed Steve prekilled, for a number of reasons. (You have to fill out paperwork to have a live animal of any kind, the room is too small to keep another habitat, buying a box of frozen mice is cheaper and easier since I can just keep them in the freezer...).
I honestly don't see what the big deal is with live feedings. Yes, the rat is hunted and killed, but that's what would happen in the wild! That's how snakes and mice did things before we started 'domesticating' them.

Yes, the killing process is somewhat gruesome initially, but the snake gets it done fairly quickly. (As opposed to our cats back home, who generally stand there watching the half-dead mouse and poke it for half an hour.) Steve goes through the killing process with his killed mice, it's an instinctive behavior that they can't just stop.