Housing balls together?

So I know not to house balls together and will never do it. That said I have friends that have 2 adult balls that have lived together their entire life and if separated go off feed. Then the other day at the pet store I saw this:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/02/8u2ety2u.jpg

If you can't see it, its 3 balls all laying on top of each other heads stacked up. Its really cute actually. Yes I know this is probably for basking/temperature but still makes me think they may like company? What do you think?

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Pet stores do that all the time just to save space. In the wild.. I'm guessing it would happen sometimes, but they generally don't want to be around eachother unless it's breeding time.

Balls in pet stores don't do very well in general. And get ready for a huge long thread about the pangs of co-habitating ball pythons.

I personally don't think balls "like" company or "get sad" if they become separated.

I would say the ones being separated and going off feed are probably going off feed because there is a drastic change in their environment when they are placed in different containers. Balls will go off feed over just about anything. One of mine won't even consider eating if I've opened his bin at all the day before feeding day.

Snakes do not have the parts of the brain responsible for emotions like affection or sadness. They're not physically capable of experiencing those things.

The image shows two snakes both trying to regulate to the correct temps. Basically they will lay on or over each other to find try to get the best place. Pet stores simply cannot follow what a keeper would consider 'reasonable' practices. Quarantine and perfect temps are next to impossible with the reality of running a business.

It is possible to house two snakes together well and safely. It just is not easy. It should be thought of as an advanced method. Skip here does I believe, he has the experience to do so. I would not suggest this as a way to keep snakes but given enough room and enough space hides hot spots and money it can be done. I cannot address your friend as I have no idea about them. It is unfair to judge until we have facts.

I have a friend whom does keep 3 royals together. His enclosure has a full bioactive substrate system, uv lighting, environmental controls that rival any zoo. Temps are perfect and controls are amazing. People will jump on the 3 snakes but with out knowing anything more. In fact it is the largest enclosure I have ever imagined, he and his wife sit in a bench inside it. The three snakes are in a space that is as large a my 'guest' bedroom is.

They are not enjoying the company, they are competing for the best hot spot.

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Originally Posted by Rob

They are not enjoying the company, they are competing for the best hot spot.

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And how, without a shred of doubt, do you know this?

Pure speculation. I have no idea what most of my snakes think most of the time and I've been doing this for a really long time.

Rob you really could be wrong. Being that is a pet shop the snakes are probably competing for a cool spot. ;)


Kite we need pics of that cage. Sounds pretty cool.

Given an enclosure large enough to provide several spots for thermoregulation, more often than not you will find snakes laying on top of each other. Yes, even when provided ample space to bask or cool off on their own, many will still lay with another snake.

Dominance? No. They feed fine, breed fine and are healthy - which is a fairly good indicator that there isn't anything stressful going on.

Again, you can throw out the competing for thermoregulation zones........so what is it?

Let's try this: let's assume that most of what we read on forums regarding snake behavior is based on opinion - not fact. After we embrace this assumption, observe your own animals, their patterns, their movements, their tendencies. Then observe what throws them off or stresses them out.

Then draw your own conclusions.

There have been extensive observations made on captive snake behavior - specifically narrowing down what causes stress in them. Common behaviors that aren't even discussed on the forums were observed over decades of interactions - mainly at zoos.

These observations were not made after reading an Elsevier Journal article or by parroting what someone else on an internet forum stated. They were made by dedicated keepers paying acute attention to the patterns and tendencies of their charges.

Again, if two snakes will choose to share a basking spot when plenty are available, is that competition?

If two snakes can share a basking spot without stressing each other out, is that dominance?

If two snakes can coexist for years without stress, but become stressed when separated, what does that say about their abilities to accept another animals as a part of their environment?

Think and observe folks, don't parrot. Be less concerned about the opinions of others and be more attuned to common sense and the powers of cognitive observation.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Think and observe folks, don't parrot. Be less concerned about the opinions of others and be more attuned to common sense and the powers of cognitive observation.

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Uh huh...sure... and next you'll be expecting what? Inductive as WELL as deductive reasoning?

Is there no end to your madness???

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

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Originally Posted by wilomn

And how, without a shred of doubt, do you know this?

Pure speculation. I have no idea what most of my snakes think most of the time and I've been doing this for a really long time.

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Here we go again with you defending housing together. Sorry I'm just not jumping on the bandwagon of thinking this is a good idea. If while in the wild where they have a choice of how to live, they huddled up together I would say you have an argument. But they are solitary animals. I'm not just regurgitating common practice, as I often do things that aren't by the book. But on this particular topic I feel it adds stress and risk I don't feel is necessary.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Uh huh...sure... and next you'll be expecting what? Inductive as WELL as deductive reasoning?

Is there no end to your madness???

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

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I'll deal with you later..............

Right now, I have a pack hierarchy issue to deal with in the snake house. Two rogue male cribos (who were evicted from the pride when they hit adolescence) challenged the reigning alpha male for dominance of the pack. They killed all of the cribo cubs during the night to induce the females to breed with them.

Nothing some shock collars and a little Cesar Milan can't cure. Darn these snakes and their well-documented dominance behavior!

I should have listened to Melissa Kaplan.........or that fat guy who runs that snake forum from the basement of his mother's house between sessions of playing World of Warcraft and downloading racy pictures of anime women. I was stupid not to.

Dude no one plays wow anymore...they've all moved on to Angry Birds...come on man!! Keep up with the FOTM!!

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Originally Posted by Rob

Here we go again with you defending housing together. Sorry I'm just not jumping on the bandwagon of thinking this is a good idea. If while in the wild where they have a choice of how to live, they huddled up together I would say you have an argument. But they are solitary animals. I'm not just regurgitating common practice, as I often do things that aren't by the book. But on this particular topic I feel it adds stress and risk I don't feel is necessary.

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Rob:

Ball pythons often share termite mounds with each other. Sometimes they don't.

What conclusion should we draw from that?

Or should we draw any conclusion?

I am going to wade back in. I think that snakes can be housed together well.

Skip I think you will agree, this is also not something done from cost saving or lack of experience. this is best left for those that have the experience to do so correctly. Skip, is it easier? cheaper? or less work?

The people I know whom do would soundly answer NO none of the above.

there are two answers here, should a beginner house two animals together... ? NO absolutely not! Is it better if a pet store does NO again.

Can a expert maintain all the correct balances and do so with the best interests of the animals in mind? Yes.

There are few hard no answers in husbandry.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I am going to wade back in. I think that snakes can be housed together well.

Skip I think you will agree, this is also not something done from cost saving or lack of experience. this is best left for those that have the experience to do so correctly. Skip, is it easier? cheaper? or less work?

The people I know whom do would soundly answer NO none of the above.

there are two answers here, should a beginner house two animals together... ? NO absolutely not! Is it better if a pet store does NO again.

Can a expert maintain all the correct balances and do so with the best interests of the animals in mind? Yes.

There are few hard no answers in husbandry.

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I have already stated, about 1000 times, that keeping snake communally is "more" on every level - money, time and general difficulty.

The question has never been couched the way you are couching it - so do me a favor Alex and please don't couch it that way.

The statement and accompanying question is that snakes cannot be kept together - period. The question was nevershould beginners should keep two snakes together.

Then that first incorrect statement is backed by incorrect facts:

- non ophiophagus snakes or snakes that electively practice cohabitation in the wild are prone to cannibalism.
- that snakes display dominance behavior.
- that snakes do not cuddle and fight over thermoregulation zones.

Since you missed the first 1000 posts in which I voluntarily and unequivocally stated that cohabitating is more work and more money and that beginners should avoid it - feel free to petition this post to the moderators as a sticky so that no one may ever again misrepresent my position on this topic.;)

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Rob:

Ball pythons often share termite mounds with each other. Sometimes they don't.

What conclusion should we draw from that?

Or should we draw any conclusion?

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Hey if someone wants to house them together, that's cool. But I'm not trying it, and I'm not going to tell someone it's a great idea when I personally don't think it is.

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Originally Posted by Rob

Hey if someone wants to house them together, that's cool. But I'm not trying it, and I'm not going to tell someone it's a great idea when I personally don't think it is.

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Has someone asked you to do this or was an opinion other than yours expressed?

If it's just the expression of an alternative opinion, then you may have some dominance issues of your own that need addressing. Can be, should be and must be are three different things from my perspective. You seem to be shy a couple of bes. (bees? what's the plural of be?) Whatever it is, I think you two too few.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Has someone asked you to do this or was an opinion other than yours expressed?

If it's just the expression of an alternative opinion, then you may have some dominance issues of your own that need addressing. Can be, should be and must be are three different things from my perspective. You seem to be shy a couple of bes. (bees? what's the plural of be?) Whatever it is, I think you two too few.

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It's a question brought up on here fairly frequently. I'm not an advocate of it. Not much else to go into.

Now dominance issues of my own? Lol first your barking up the wrong tree that with that one buddy. Two, your not dragging me into one of your drawn out bickering matches I see you have so often.

I guess I'll toss my own 2 cents out there...
It isn't a big deal. Whichever housing does the animals in question their justice, then so be it. Probably, in most cases, it isn't good since there is a fine space issue to be concerned- fitting two or more ball pythons in an enclosure without causing large-space related discomfort as well as risking easier spread of contagions. And there is, of course, the possibilities of cannibalism, which is basically documented in every animal in the animal kingdom, from ball pythons, to mice (as I have witnessed) as well as humans.
But in the case of two specimens in a nicely covered, natural, stress free, clean vivarium with plenty of options for thermoregulation and security with a certified health check, one could pull it off. The reality of the situation is that ball pythons are simply and generally anti-social. They don't care for one-another. They might get 'tamed' towards each other, but they don't need each other's company. While one snake may be in the way of one another in such cases of a comfortable space, which will result in a minor shove and tug a war, if ample spots are provided, then they should be fine.
My point being is, by housing together, you are doing it for your own pleasure of getting a thrill out of seeing more than one ball python together at the same time, and to get the feeling of 'Zoo Tycoon' in real life. If you are just wanting a display vivarium with more than one animal, then have fun setting it up to be physically compatible to provide for all animals involved with comfortable living space as well as making it aesthetically pleasing. That's the only thing balancing out the negatives. It is otherwise pointless to house them together in a bin, as this is more risky, and in cases where only a bin can be used, can only provide for one animal, causing direct competition.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

My point being is, by housing together, you are doing it for your own pleasure of getting a thrill out of seeing more than one ball python together at the same time, and to get the feeling of 'Zoo Tycoon' in real life.

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Isn't omniscience a chore?

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Originally Posted by Rob

It's a question brought up on here fairly frequently. I'm not an advocate of it. Not much else to go into.

Now dominance issues of my own? Lol first your barking up the wrong tree that with that one buddy. Two, your not dragging me into one of your drawn out bickering matches I see you have so often.

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update the sarcasm and humor chips

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Originally Posted by wilomn

update the sarcasm and humor chips

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Right back at ya, maybe it would have helped if I had added a ;) at the end of it.

This topic has been touched upon MANY times in all my seven years as a member of this forum. Id reccommend searching those threads out....theres a LOT of good info in there! :gj:

Sent from my H866C using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I have already stated, about 1000 times, that keeping snake communally is "more" on every level - money, time and general difficulty.

The question has never been couched the way you are couching it - so do me a favor Alex and please don't couch it that way.

The statement and accompanying question is that snakes cannot be kept together - period. The question was nevershould beginners should keep two snakes together.

Then that first incorrect statement is backed by incorrect facts:

- non ophiophagus snakes or snakes that electively practice cohabitation in the wild are prone to cannibalism.
- that snakes display dominance behavior.
- that snakes do not cuddle and fight over thermoregulation zones.

Since you missed the first 1000 posts in which I voluntarily and unequivocally stated that cohabitating is more work and more money and that beginners should avoid it - feel free to petition this post to the moderators as a sticky so that no one may ever again misrepresent my position on this topic.;)

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You mis-read me I was pointing out that it is more expensive, time consuming and best left to those that have the expertese to do so. I do not. My area is royals with a little spill here and there. I never said that you did not I said you would confirm what I said. It is more expensive You agree, more time consuming, yes, and more costly. I did not think that suggesting it cost more took more time and more experience mis represented you at all. :rolleyes: I am sorry if you do not feel this way. ;)