Seeking Input From People Experienced W/ Respiratory Infection

We have a snake with ongoing RI. She came down with it right before laying a clutch. I am thinking she was kept in less than optimal conditions before we acquired her and perhaps the stress of the eggs did her in.

She was first treated with Baytril and did well, but near the end of the vial I called the vet and said we were running out. He told us it would be good to just slowly wean her off of it with smaller and smaller doses (has anybody heard of being "weaned" off antibiotics..?) which we did. She was better, mostly, she started eating again, but she still had a few bubbles every now and again. So I think she was taken off the Baytril too early perhaps.

I really like our vet and he's a wonderful guy, but I guess I just don't always understand the "why" of what he is prescribing. Her Baytril treatment was working just fine so...why the change to Amikacin?

We are almost 6 hours round trip away from him, and can only get out there on weekends so it's not exactly easy to just run back to the vet all the time. We weren't able to get any meds as none of the vets in Squamish carry the medicine or are willing to dispense prescriptions from other Vets. We then went back to the vet with the snake, and instead of another round of Baytril, he prescribed Amikacin. It did absolutely nothing for her, in fact she may have even got worse over the 21 days we were administering The Amikacin.

We then went back a third time and now he has prescribed us Baytril in the same amount/dose as the first time, but instead of everyday, he has her on an injection every OTHER day. I'm afraid the meds are going to run out before she is better once again and I REALLY don't want to keep her on antibiotics forever.

And since I know you guys will ask, her temps are perfect, she's got a 92 hot spot (Cornel's World CB70 rack with 2 strips of 4" flexwatt) with around 80 ambient +/- a degree or so. Her humidity is perfect, her sheds have always been perfect. None of the other snakes are showing any signs or symptoms of RI, or anything else for that matter. The vet did a test of her mucus and said that it's typical of an RI and it's not stomach acid, so that is a good thing, he said.

The strange thing is she is wheezing and gurgling, and wiping mucus everywhere (which actually has cleared up really quickly since beginning the Baytril again) and she was holding her mouth open. All of typical signs of RI...yet she is still eating like a pig. Every time I offer it to her, she eats. Which is great. But I'm just so frustrated that so far no treatments have worked and I fear that prolonging this is going to make it VERY difficult if not impossible to treat.

I was also told by the vet that once a snake gets an RI, there really is no "curing" it. I am aware that there will always be bacterias present, but does this mean she's going to have this RI forever? Have you ever treated a snake for RI and NOT had it reoccur?

So, if you have any insight, I would love to hear it. I contacted Corey (thank you!) and he has told me Fortaz works really well. I was also told (by the vet) that Fortaz isn't really used up here because of it's cost. But I just really want my baby to get better, she is one of my favorite snakes. So do you think I should try this course of Baytril, or should I stop it and ask the vet to order me some Fortaz? I really don't care how much it costs at this point.

Thanks!

Also, just because it's cool to see, here is her xray from the first visit

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...pse4bc53a1.jpg

First order of business is that you should have gotten a culture done.
There are many forms of RI. And different versions of the bacterial sort.
Without a culture, it would be difficult to target the specific infection.

Bump her heat to 95.

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

She was first treated with Baytril and did well, but near the end of the vial I called the vet and said we were running out. He told us it would be good to just slowly wean her off of it with smaller and smaller doses (has anybody heard of being "weaned" off antibiotics..?) which we did. She was better, mostly, she started eating again, but she still had a few bubbles every now and again. So I think she was taken off the Baytril too early perhaps.

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Never heard of 'weaning' off antibiotics. I would not take a snake off meds unless it is fully recovered.

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I really like our vet and he's a wonderful guy, but I guess I just don't always understand the "why" of what he is prescribing. Her Baytril treatment was working just fine so...why the change to Amikacin?


We are almost 6 hours round trip away from him, and can only get out there on weekends so it's not exactly easy to just run back to the vet all the time. We weren't able to get any meds as none of the vets in Squamish carry the medicine or are willing to dispense prescriptions from other Vets. We then went back to the vet with the snake, and instead of another round of Baytril, he prescribed Amikacin. It did absolutely nothing for her, in fact she may have even got worse over the 21 days we were administering The Amikacin.

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Honestly, I'm not a fan of Baytril. It's overprescribed (default without a culture) so a lot of infections are growing immune to it, thus rendering the meds ineffective. Not to mention the Baytril 'burns' from injections.

But anyway, perhaps he thinks the Amikacin will be more effective (even though it wasn't)?
How long has the snake been sick?

Either way, a culture needs to be done. Otherwise your vet is just guessing in the dark and pulling meds out of his butt.

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And since I know you guys will ask, her temps are perfect, she's got a 92 hot spot (Cornel's World CB70 rack with 2 strips of 4" flexwatt) with around 80 ambient +/- a degree or so. Her humidity is perfect, her sheds have always been perfect. None of the other snakes are showing any signs or symptoms of RI, or anything else for that matter. The vet did a test of her mucus and said that it's typical of an RI and it's not stomach acid, so that is a good thing, he said.

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Like I mentioned before, I suggest bumping up her hot spot to 95.
I hope she's in quarantine and not in the same rack as your other snakes. RI is contagious.

I don't understand his test....

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The strange thing is she is wheezing and gurgling, and wiping mucus everywhere (which actually has cleared up really quickly since beginning the Baytril again) and she was holding her mouth open. All of typical signs of RI...yet she is still eating like a pig. Every time I offer it to her, she eats. Which is great. But I'm just so frustrated that so far no treatments have worked and I fear that prolonging this is going to make it VERY difficult if not impossible to treat.

I was also told by the vet that once a snake gets an RI, there really is no "curing" it. I am aware that there will always be bacterias present, but does this mean she's going to have this RI forever? Have you ever treated a snake for RI and NOT had it reoccur?

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WRONG!
He is just sounds like an unknowledgeable vet regarding reptiles.
Snakes can recover from RI. But it depends on the type.
There are several types: Bacterial, fungal, parasitical, and viral. Viral is incurable, but very very rare.
Most common would be bacterial infections, but you need a culture.

*shakes head*

I had a rescue who had a severe bacterial RI. She recovered just fine and never got sick again.


Awesome xray btw.

Thanks for all of your input. It's unfortunate that it is so difficult to find a knowledgeable reptile vet. This is the most knowledgeable reptile vet in our area. There is one other but apparently he knows even less/has never kept reptiles/has no ties to the reptile community whatsoever :(

I had brought up all of my concerns regarding the bacteria becoming resistant to the antibiotics, like superbugs in humans. Antibiotics kill some bacteria, if you don't complete the course, the more-resistant strains are left behind, the more resistant strains multiply, therefore making it more difficult to kill and needing a longer, stronger course of antibiotics the next time. He said that's not how it works.

The thing with the Amikacin, I had suggested that drug to him in the very first place, but he said it's not as available in Canada, it's not used very often because it's expensive and expires quickly so they don't like to stock it on their shelves because it doesn't get used up.

Then all of a sudden (I guess maybe he did some reading?) He changed her over to Amikacin. I have read that it's a VERY powerful drug, but he also gave my friends snake Amikacin, and there was about 2cc in his syringes, (about an inch worth of medicine) and we only got about 1/16" worth of medicine in our syringes. So when I was dosing her it seemed like the meds were not even there, it was such a small amount. The snakes were approx the same weight. Don't know what's up with that. I asked him too and all he did was repeat the dose to me in mg/kg and say that it was correct. I'm not sure if he's saying he gave our friends snake an incorrect dosage...?

Yes she is in Quarantine in a completely separate room, it will be very easy to bump up her temps a little more.

And I figured I was also correct about the RI never being cured. Maybe he's never cured an RI then. I don't know. I just don't know what to do. I'm not a vet, I don't have the ability or authority to conduct any of these tests or get my hands on any of these drugs, so what am I supposed to do!?

Weaning antibiotics I think was a terrible mistake. It allows the surviving bacteria (resistant bacteria) to multiply

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Originally Posted by barbie.dragon

Weaning antibiotics I think was a terrible mistake. It allows the surviving bacteria (resistant bacteria) to multiply

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Yeah :S Like I said in my post above, that's what I said to the vet, and he told me it doesn't work like that...Siiiiiiiiigh.

When I had a snake struggling to shake a bacterial RI the Vet had me up the dosing to every day for a week and then back to every other day, somewhat opposite of what you vet said to do.
Mine did finally shake the RI after 3+ weeks of baytril shots.

I can't understand the vet not demanding a culture unless the vet wasn't versed in getting cultures from a snake :confusd:

Still absolutely no progress on this. Still no culture has been done, because I do not believe the vet knows how to do a culture on a snake.

Ran out of meds (Baytril) YET AGAIN so my snake is currently having ANOTHER lapse in treatment. I asked the vet for more meds far far in advance this time so that we wouldn't have to deal with another gap in her antibiotics, but here we are again. I stuck with the Baytril injections that he provided last time, as the Baytril DID work in the first place and I'm confident it would have worked and kicked this infection, had we just kept with it right from the get-go, until her symptoms had completely disappeared. I am ready to kick something. What to do when there is literally nobody that will help me? :'(

I have asked all of the vet clinics here if they are willing to help me out, give me the meds I need, etc. I know it is illegal to dispense meds without performing an exam on the animal, but the problem is nobody is even willing to let me bring the snake into their office for an exam. I even offered to NOT bring the snake and pretend like I did, and let them charge me for an exam, but no can do on any of them. I have called NUMEROUS other vets in Vancouver and none know what to do with a snake. None will dispense the Fortaz to me, nor do an exam for my snake. At this point I've even tried looking online to see if there was somewhere that I could order some Fortaz or Baytril, to no avail.

When I asked the vet for Fortaz, this is what I was sent:

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Third generation cephalosporins ie Fortaz is something I have used. It's a single injection that lasts a month. I agree it's with a try. As long as your ok with the risks we can try it. Need the most recent weight

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That is copy and pasted directly as it appears in the email...........Yes we have been emailing back and forth since the vet is about a 4-5hr round trip away from me. This also makes things very difficult.

But anyways. There is no such thing as a single-dose antibiotic that lasts a whole month. What the actual eff.

I've been talking to Corey Woods and he told me exactly what to do and what I needed but the vet is being completely uncooperative and not answering my emails or returning phone calls at this point. I'm screwed.

So in summary:

NONE of my questions are being answered by my current vet.
NONE of the "treatments" for my snake have worked thus far.
NONE of the vets I have contacted are willing to help me out.

Honestly. I am beginning to think I should just put the poor snake down and end her suffering.

Do you have a zoo or wildlife center near by?
They should have qualified exotic vets. If so, I would try to contact their vet.

Or have another keeper ship you some?

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I am trying to get in contact with the zoo, but I believe the vet I am seeing is the same vet they use.

Yikes. Good luck!!

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

When I had a snake struggling to shake a bacterial RI the Vet had me up the dosing to every day for a week and then back to every other day, somewhat opposite of what you vet said to do.
Mine did finally shake the RI after 3+ weeks of baytril shots.

I can't understand the vet not demanding a culture unless the vet wasn't versed in getting cultures from a snake :confusd:

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My Pastel, who I posted a thewad on last yeae took almost 3 months on baytril to kck his. First month was every three days and the last two were every other than he had two weeks of every day after that. Hes alive and healthy now bur constant medication really takes its toll. Ri's are a pain to kick..

I was addibg my personal experience, not trying to contridact

Thanks to all who responded, I think I have finally got this figured out. I will update you with her progress as her treatment goes on!

That x-ray is cool!


Ok, not bashing your vet, as they can't know everything about every animal, but you need a culture done to know which anitibiotic (or combination) to use. Each one treats a different RI.

My advice, get a culture done and/or get F10 and a fogger. You could treat her with the F10 while you are waiting for the culture to come back. I've treated a gravid female with F10 and the eggs came out fine, she bred/laid again the next year. I've treated with injections, F10, and a combination of the two. F10 works quicker and better IMO. When I've treated with injections it has taken 3+ weeks till they looked cured, then another week or two on top of that. When I've treated with F10 they looked amazing by the end of the week, then I treated for one more week after that and it didn't come back.

I was totally against F10 since it's a cleaning product, but I'll stand by it now that I've tried it.

I have been fogging her with F10 but honestly she's been battling this since at least September, so I think it's far beyond F10. I'm still keeping up with it, though because I don't think it can hurt. Now that I've got the problem under control, I, and everybody who has helped me, is confident that she will finally be cured.

And the problem with getting a culture, is that no vet around here will do a culture. None that I have spoke with, anyways. And I've called many. I'm not letting just anybody fill my snakes lung up with fluid. That is the problem. Nobody will help me. The Baytril works. She was almost cured. She WOULD have been cured, had she been prescribed a long enough round of it in the first place. And then the vet didn't screw around. I understand that not every vet can know anything.

But IMO, if you're a vet and you have zero idea how to treat the animal:

1) Don't pretend you know how to treat the animal.
2) Don't be a freakin' &%^%$ when the client brings forth information, research, and anecdotes from fellow snake breeders to help you treat the animal.

Seriously, he brushed me off so many times. Every question or bit of research I brought up, he shot me down. He didn't even give me any explanation. When I asked him (verbatim)

"But if you don't complete a round of antibiotics, the bacteria that are left, and were not killed by said antibiotics, are not the weak ones. They are the surviving bacteria, and they are stronger than the ones that were killed by the antibiotics. And that is why there are superbugs in humans."

He said "No. Wrong. That's not how it works."

And seriously, the Fortaz thing. It's so stupid it honestly makes me laugh and shake my head at how stupid it is.

And that's not the only thing. He has just told me so many things that were so blatantly wrong it's not even funny. I mean, shouldn't EVERYBODY with a medical license know how antibiotics work?

If you don't complete the course, your problem will come back and it will come back worse. FACT.

There is no such thing as a slow-release antibiotic, FACT.

You need a culture to know what bacteria you are dealing with. FACT.

Anyways. So done with this!! I will definitely keep y'all posted on her progress!

Oh and I forgot to say, she's not gravid. She was when we first took her in but she was so close to laying we just waited to few days and then started her on the Baytril.

All eggs came out fine (though one went bad after a few days) and all remaining eggs hatched into beautiful babies!

Ok jeez, one more post!!!

How much F10 are you using in the fogger? I've been using 3cc per fill-up of the bottle, which I believe is 1L. I've been told to maybe try a bit stronger, maybe 4 or 5cc per bottle.

And how often did you do it? I've been doing it once per day. Half hour of fogging. I tilt the bin and have holes in one end so that any condensation that builds up runs down and drains out, so she's not sitting in a pool of water. I've also been putting a heating pad on low under the container while she's in there, so she doesn't get cold.

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

I have been fogging her with F10 but honestly she's been battling this since at least September, so I think it's far beyond F10. I'm still keeping up with it, though because I don't think it can hurt. Now that I've got the problem under control, I, and everybody who has helped me, is confident that she will finally be cured.

And the problem with getting a culture, is that no vet around here will do a culture. None that I have spoke with, anyways. And I've called many. I'm not letting just anybody fill my snakes lung up with fluid. That is the problem. Nobody will help me. The Baytril works. She was almost cured. She WOULD have been cured, had she been prescribed a long enough round of it in the first place. And then the vet didn't screw around. I understand that not every vet can know anything.

But IMO, if you're a vet and you have zero idea how to treat the animal:

1) Don't pretend you know how to treat the animal.
2) Don't be a freakin' &%^%$ when the client brings forth information, research, and anecdotes from fellow snake breeders to help you treat the animal.

Seriously, he brushed me off so many times. Every question or bit of research I brought up, he shot me down. He didn't even give me any explanation. When I asked him (verbatim)

"But if you don't complete a round of antibiotics, the bacteria that are left, and were not killed by said antibiotics, are not the weak ones. They are the surviving bacteria, and they are stronger than the ones that were killed by the antibiotics. And that is why there are superbugs in humans."

He said "No. Wrong. That's not how it works."

And seriously, the Fortaz thing. It's so stupid it honestly makes me laugh and shake my head at how stupid it is.

And that's not the only thing. He has just told me so many things that were so blatantly wrong it's not even funny. I mean, shouldn't EVERYBODY with a medical license know how antibiotics work?

If you don't complete the course, your problem will come back and it will come back worse. FACT.

There is no such thing as a slow-release antibiotic, FACT.

You need a culture to know what bacteria you are dealing with. FACT.

Anyways. So done with this!! I will definitely keep y'all posted on her progress!

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Do you have a university near you? Like I live near the UOI university of Illinois. They don't advertise but they have a very we
L trained exotic vet who looks at animals. You may get lucky taking this route and find one who will look at them. The nearest vet that would do a culture near me besides this one was near Chicago, which is a 2 hour drive.. I know the burden you have with "professionals" been there done that, and even met there collection agency who said quote "the vet not knowing how to help you is no concern to the money owed"

Wow I can't believe fogging her hasn't cured it! Are you fogging her like Brian from BHB does?

I think getting a culture done and giving her the right injection is your last resort. I agree completely with your comment about your vet and him telling you things without actually knowing. They have a place much like a forum with vets and pharm reps where they can get advice. That's what my vet does and she is very open to input from breeders. My sister is planning to become a vet so she has been able to do a lot of job shadowing and confirmed the forum thing.

For what it's worth I've only been fogging her for 4 days. I bought the fogger long ago to use in an enclosure but never ended up using it. I misplaced the tube and had to track another one down, so I've just started her on it. Of course I found the misplaced tube just hours after my replacement arrived. Why wouldn't it work out that way??

And yes I believe I'm using Brian's dosage. 3cc into the fogger bottle.

The vet we have been seeing is about a 5hr round trip for us, so going any further isn't really an option as we both work full time.

I did get in touch with somebody at UBC, nobody called me back though both times.

Honestly I am new to ball pythons, my first was a rescue and came to me with a bad RI, crawling around with its mouth open and mucus everywhere. Every now and then even spit up mucus ( gross). I brought her to the vet, h did not culture and gave me baytril told me 0.3ml once a day orally for seven days. She wass a new snake within 5 days or so and she has been healthy ever since. But he just told me to use it till it was gone even if she was better.

Have you considered the possibility that it may not be a bacterial infection?

I have. If it were viral, it would not respond so well to the Baytril.

She's in strict quarantine, in any case, so I'm going to see how she responds to the treatment this time.

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

I have. If it were viral, it would not respond so well to the Baytril.

She's in strict quarantine, in any case, so I'm going to see how she responds to the treatment this time.

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Let's see if the Baytril does the trick.

By trick I mean knocks it out for good. If it comes back in one week, two weeks or even ten, then maybe you need to think hard as to why an RI would respond to an antibiotic, go into a seeming stage of remission and then come back.

At that point, we can have a chat about ophidian viruses and why antibiotics appear to clear them up.

Skiploder, Have you read the entire thread? I appreciated your post in the IBD thread, because any new information is good information, however I think suggesting a virus at this point is premature. If you would like to post why it would appear to respond and then come back, I am open to new information, always. I'm sure anybody else who is reading this thread would also like to know this information. At this point it seems like you are trying to set yourself up to say "I told you so!" in the future.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to believe that a snake who has been improperly treated would still be sick. The vet "treating her" has no idea what he's doing, and RI's happen all of the time. Almost every breeder I know who has bred for a significant period of time has had to deal with an RI. Not sure why exactly you seem to think it would be OPMV when it "appears" to be a simple RI. If you could outline what exactly is leading you to believe it is a virus and not a bacterial infection, that would be appreciated.

Like I said, I asked for a culture. I have been calling around, trying to get a culture done. Do you really think, if a culture was available to me in the first place, I would have a) turned it down, then b) kept this snake alive for this long, battling with the "exotics vet" trying to treat her and c) spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars, trying to treat her. I paid $600 for her and I am WELL OVER that amount in vet costs, medication costs, xray costs, etc. Would you, personally, let JUST ANYBODY fill up your snakes lung with liquid, or would you prefer that they have education in collecting such samples?

This case, IMO, is LIKELY NOT OPMV. I'm not saying definitely that it isn't. I'm not saying for sure it's not a virus. I'm just saying that I'm not going at it that way, at this point.

I've known many people with recurring UTIs. It goes on for YEARS. Guess what? Those people take their antibiotics til they feel better, then they stop. Then they get their UTI back and wonder why. For anybody still wondering WHY, when you pick up a prescription, it has that little pamphlet that says in big bold letters KEEP TAKING THIS MEDICATION, EVEN IF YOU ARE FEELING BETTER, please do a quick Google search on antibiotic resistance.

But back to snakes. Every time my snake has responded to the antibiotics, THEY RAN OUT BEFORE SHE WAS BETTER. The first time the vet advised me to "wean her off" the antibiotics, (about 8 doses of Baytril,) she still had mucus. I was concerned about running out, so I asked for more. He said she was fine if she appears to have improved, so I should slowly give her less and less of a dose every day. That is when I questioned his knowledge on antibiotics

I mean, I honestly can't even go over this concept again. It's a dead horse. I can't even repeat myself in any other way, to get my point across.

Every single RI is not a virus. And it feels to me like you are jumping to those conclusions and trying to scare me into believing that it is a virus. If so, why? I am aware that OPMV exists, I have researched it to the best of my ability.

If I had a vet who know what he was doing, and treated her adequately, and THEN her RI didn't respond, THEN I would be worried. But that is simply just not the case.

Just in case you are wondering, she is under strict quarantine. The most strict that I can possibly provide, at this point. My only other option would be to quarantine her at my Mom's house, but with her smoking a pack a day in her apartment, I think that would do more harm than good.

She is quarantined in her own room. I don't touch her until the very end of the day, directly before I shower. When I do touch her, I use disposable nitrile gloves. I dispose of these gloves in a garbage bin separate from the snake room garbage bin. Same with any substrate that I remove from her tank. I do not touch door handles after I have touched her. I don't use any equipment that has been used for her, on any other snake. Even after disposing of the gloves, I wash my hands with antibacterial soap. I don't touch the faucet handles with my hands, I use my elbows. When I dry my hands, I use paper towel and dispose of it immediately. She has her very own ceramic water dish that doesn't get swapped with anybody elses. When I do wash it, I soak it in bleach, scrub it with paper towel and then dispose of it, and then I put it through the dishwasher and make sure to use the drying cycle.

Honestly, this is the very best I can do with regards to quarantining her.

Skiploder, I am not trying to be snarky. I 100% respect your knowledge and your opinion. I just want to know WHY you think this is a virus and not a bacterial infection?

Like I said. I will keep y'all posted on her progress.

You are assuming I was referencing OPMV (did the word ophidian throw you for a loop?), you were assuming that I didn't read your thread, you are assuming I give a rat's left nut about being right or proving a point, and you are assuming that I have the patience to read an infantile verbal tantrum like you just threw and then have any sort of rational discussion with you.

Odd that the vaunted F10 treatment doesn't work............if F10 is as effective as some claim, there should be no bacterial resistance to it...........

Now, if you'd like to stop with the hysterics, you can PM me with your email address. I can actually walk you through doing your own tracheal wash an how to send it to a lab. I can also walk you through effectively dealing with what appears to be the only veterinary option you have. If you decide to pass, my feelings won't be hurt in the slightest.

Sorry Skiploder,

I'm a bit on edge. All I'm saying is I've just had ENOUGH of this crap. I am so absolutely, thoroughly DONE with trying to figure this out on my own. It's been such a struggle. It's been 6 months of worrying, 6 months of waiting on responses from the vet, 6 months of trying to cram in visits to the vet office, etc. Lost wages, paying for exams and reexams, it just seems neverending. I've spent so much money on long distance phone charges trying to find somebody who can fix my snake, to no avail.

Some breeders would have simple euth'd the snake and not had a second thought. Fortunately for my collection, I am emotionally attached and not just financially attached to my animals.

It wasn't a verbal tantrum, and I really wish it hadn't have come off that way; I was simply wondering, what is it that is causing you to think it is a virus and not a simple bacterial infection that hasn't been treated properly? Your post is what led me to believe that you hadn't read the thread; how many instances do you know of, snake OR human, being on an incomplete course of antibiotics and being fully cured? I personally know of none. I've had my own personal experiences with antibiotics and I know that if you mess around, it can really screw things up! I am still battling compromised immune system due to antibiotics that I took years ago!

As for the F10, keep in mind that I started the F10 treatment directly as the antibiotic treatment was involuntarily stopped. So it's very difficult to say weather it is helping or not. Also, the whole F10 treatment was only made big when Brian of BHB made a YouTube video on it. Keep in mind, in that very video, he says the treatment will help an RI in it's beginning stages. He says if it is more severe, a vet visit is in order. Nowhere does he claim it will cure an RI that has been ongoing.

I'm not claiming to know everything, I'm not claiming to know of every Ophidian virus out there. And yes, you mentioning it in conjunction with the information you provided recently on the IBD thread, is what led me to believe OPMV is what you were talking about. Like I said, I am always wide open to information. I never stop learning, and I never want to stop learning. I never close my mind, especially if it concerns the well-being of my animals. I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, I just want to know what you are thinking.

I would greatly appreciate a walk-through, though I don't know if I'm confident enough to do it myself. Also what may complicate things, is I am in Canada. I am not entirely certain, but I don't think I am able to mail biological specimens.