BEL Question?

I Have a Lesser x Mojave and a Super Lesser that I purchased. I hope to breed them and was wondering if there is really anything that shows whether it is a Lesser x Mojave or a Super Lesser. Both of mine really look identical.

You want to breed them together?

Yeah. Make some BEl's.

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Originally Posted by nimblykimbly

You want to breed them together?

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That would produce a clutch that consists of 100% BELs. Sounds good to me.

To the OP: It will be very difficult if at all possible to tell them apart. The only real way to tell will be to breed the offspring once they are old enough (breed them to something that isn't in the BEL complex)

Well, I have only read that a Super Lesser is potentially more 'white' than a Mojave x Lesser... You are asking if there will be a way to tell the babies apart, right?

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

That would produce a clutch that consists of 100% BELs. Sounds good to me.

To the OP: It will be very difficult if at all possible to tell them apart. The only real way will be to breed the offspring once they are old enough (breed them to something that isn't in the BEL complex)

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^^^ lol this is where I was getting! Thanks! :)

Well the 2 I have now Look exactly the same. No yellow lines and eyes look the same. It's either that or my Mystic male. with the Lesser x Mojave

Then you can make a Mystic Potion :gj: Tough call!!

Exaclty. But do I go for the 100% Bel or the 25 % Potion. If I dont use the Mystic on the Lesser X Mojave I'll breed him to my Special.

try black light on the adults, sometimes this reveals near-invisible patterns in BELs. i mean, dont give them sunburn, just inspect them for fluorescence. if you see a difference there, maybe you see the same difference in the offspring.

or you could breed it to something else from the BEL complex, a super phantom/mystic, or a super mojave, then you can tell the babies apart. super mojaves have the grey head and are also cool and in demand, and mystic potions are nice :)

Thats a very interesting idea. Never thought of using a black light. I'll give that a try. Thank you.

That really is a tough decision.... If you do the BEL x Mystic, then what will you do with the other BEL? You know, you could pair the Mystic with both....?

Well if I use the 1.0 Mystic with the 0.1 Lesser x Mojave then I would use the Super Lesser with my Special to make Lesser Crystals.

i found the video where i got the idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgDiCZ_IPFY

they really look different under UV light, it could maybe even be used to find out of BELs have any other pattern morph going on, like pinstripe or spider or clown or whatever.

I don't recommend breeding those two together unless one was a super mojave BEL. With at least a super mojave, you could tell difference between the super mojaves from the mojave lessers offspring.

How would you sell the offspring if you don't know what's in the genetics are?

The black light only works to ID patterned genes in the BEL.

I'm gonna have to try it tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I don't recommend breeding those two together unless one was a super mojave BEL. With at least a super mojave, you could tell difference between the super mojaves from the mojave lessers offspring.

How would you sell the offspring if you don't know what's in the genetics are?

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Thats been my thought as well. But that's why I was hoping there was a way to tell them apart before I tried to breed them.

Sir, you have a tough decision to make :P You either get 25% Lesser crystal and 25% Mystic Crystal or 100% BEL. (sorry, not telling you, brainstorming with you and laying it out :)) Well... you know the BEL combo is 100%... but you could completely miss on the crystals, if the odds aren't in your favor..... I guess it depends on if you're a gambler. :)

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Originally Posted by nimblykimbly

Sir, you have a tough decision to make :P You either get 25% Lesser crystal and 25% Mystic Crystal or 100% BEL. (sorry, not telling you, brainstorming with you and laying it out :)) Well... you know the BEL combo is 100%... but you could completely miss on the crystals, if the odds aren't in your favor..... I guess it depends on if you're a gambler. :)

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This is very true. I've been kicking this around for a while.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I don't recommend breeding those two together unless one was a super mojave BEL. With at least a super mojave, you could tell difference between the super mojaves from the mojave lessers offspring.

How would you sell the offspring if you don't know what's in the genetics are?

The black light only works to ID patterned genes in the BEL.

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This is a very good point! Thanks, I hadn't thought about this either!

I did plan on keeping the first clutch and Breed them out. I hadnt really planned on selling them.

That does make a difference... but if even you're not sure what they are, how will you decide who to pair them with? Or will that be the gamble? :)

a breeder in southern Germany, Stefan Broghammer at http://www.ms-reptilien.de/, sells his blue eye lucys with the following description:

lesser + russo or mocha or mojave.

he also sells the individual genes as 1-gene animals or other combos like pastave, but i guess he got it mixed up in his BEL breeding :D but they still seem to sell well.

No. The males were going to be used to breed to my 11 other existing females. Thats the only thing i can think to do to prove them out.

Right, but what I mean is - is that your plan, to breed the unknown BEL males to other females, and wait to see the offspring to determine which is which? Ex - ?BEL? x Spider = MojoBee (or whatever you call it.. lol) then you know the dad is a mojo/Lesser BEL vs a Lesser BEL...?

Yeah. That's probably what i am going to have to do.

Personally, it sounds fun to do that... It leaves a little mystery - you never know what you will hatch out! And also gain the experience of proving something out, even if it is one of your own hatchlings :)

Right and then I can use those for Bel breeding to sell

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Originally Posted by Derrick

Right and then I can use those for Bel breeding to sell

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:D Yes! and their babies you will know what they are... just a little flair and mystery thrown into the middle. :gj:

Right or I just say screw it and switch the breeding males up this year and try for Lesser Crystal or Mystic Potion.

Hahahaha, yes, you could do that too! :P Lemme know what you end up deciding! It'll be interesting either way

No problem I have some time to decide.

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

i found the video where i got the idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgDiCZ_IPFY

they really look different under UV light, it could maybe even be used to find out of BELs have any other pattern morph going on, like pinstripe or spider or clown or whatever.

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Not to hijack the thread, but it is BEL related. I am sorry if it has been asked before. How would a Pied BEL look under a UV light? Would you be able to tell what it actually is?

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Originally Posted by adamsky27

Not to hijack the thread, but it is BEL related. I am sorry if it has been asked before. How would a Pied BEL look under a UV light? Would you be able to tell what it actually is?

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does the video not show different BELs under UV light? im confused.

i said it might work, i said under UV there may be a difference between the adults and because the offspring will definitively be 50%/50%, i said that difference might also be visible in the offspring, which might make clear identification possible. Possibilities. What i never said is that it definitively works, or that it works in all cases.

Inspection under UV fluorescence has one weakness: lack of data, too few pictures exist, lack of reference. But it also has a strength: it makes otherwise invisible/hidden patterns visible in BELs. Combine both with experience and the method will have its uses. I didnt say and never said it will help in this case, just that it is something to consider, a possible solution.

And im quite sure with this method you could tell apart a super mojave from a super mojave pied. I am also sure you can use this to differentiate between mystic/phantom lesser and mystic/phantom lesser pied. That is, unless the pied would be "low-white", i mean, so that the stripe/pattern on the back isnt interrupted by the expression of the pied gene. But then, its a bad example, because there is no reason to breed BEL pieds.

Inspection under UV fluorescence will be a powerful tool, once we have images of the UV fluorescence of different morphs of high-white ball pythons. It will be a tool just like eye color or head pattern or belly inspection. You hit the blue-eye lucy pied when the pattern under UV is disrupted by obvious pied influence, just like you hit your albino karma (or any other albino BEL) when the eyes are red. Nothing more, nothing less. Just another source of data. Its unexplored, or not explored far enough. In the end, it will be an indicator just like eye color, that works in some cases and wont work in other cases, but right now there is a massive lack of data. Pictures of high-white pieds under UV showing their fluorescence are nonexistent online. There is a lack in reference points, i searched and so far images or video showing fluorescence of ball pythons under UV is limited to 3 or 4 high-white morphs. And all except one of the data points are based on the NERD video.

It is unexplored territory that can easily be explored. If you have any blue-eye lucys just inspect them under UV and share pictures, if enough people do this we will soon have figured it out.

I'd go for making lesser crystals and mystic potions, myself. I love both of those and I would be super wary about selling snakes I wasn't 100% sure of genetics-wise. If you keep back all the hatchlings to prove out, I guess it doesn't matter. If your super lesser was a super mojo I would definitely suggest making BELs because BELs are beautiful but with a super lesser it makes it hard to tell what's what.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/image...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by adamsky27 http://ball-pythons.net/forums/image...post-right.png
Not to hijack the thread, but it is BEL related. I am sorry if it has been asked before. How would a Pied BEL look under a UV light? Would you be able to tell what it actually is?

oh, sorry, i misunderstood you.....


yes, i think blue-eye lucys that also hit pied could be identified using this method, since the (unfortunately) very few cases of very white ball pythons that can be seen under UV fluorescence online do still show residual/hidden pattern in the fluorescence. And pied is a highly pattern-disrupting pattern morph. To be sure, some pictures of regular pieds under UV-light would be needed, but i guess you could tell them apart quite easily.

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/image...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by adamsky27 http://ball-pythons.net/forums/image...post-right.png
Not to hijack the thread, but it is BEL related. I am sorry if it has been asked before. How would a Pied BEL look under a UV light? Would you be able to tell what it actually is?

oh, sorry, i misunderstood you.....


yes, i think blue-eye lucys that also hit pied could be identified using this method, since the (unfortunately) very few cases of very white ball pythons that can be seen under UV fluorescence online do still show residual/hidden pattern in the fluorescence. And pied is a highly pattern-disrupting pattern morph. To be sure, some pictures of regular pieds under UV-light would be needed, but i guess you could tell them apart quite easily.

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Thank you for the reply after you understood what I was asking for. I personally wouldn't mind having a Pied BEL. Whether the naked eye can see it or not.

A pied BEL would still be pretty awesome to have, both from a pet standpoint and a breeding standpoint. Breed it to any pied and you'll potentially get some awesome combo morph pied hatchlings!