Treat a Respiratory Infection (RI) from Home. DIY

I am in no way condoning skipping out on a vet visit if your animal is sick. Unfortunately, some of us live in areas where there isn't an exotic vet nearby. Others may have one of those tough to beat RI's that aren't responding to antibiotics and want to try something different. Fortunately for me, my father is a veterinarian (although not a specialized exotic one) and has the resources to antibiotics and labs to send cultures off to if need be. Although we could have gone ahead and started giving my snake antibiotic injections, I've seen how much it stresses them out and wanted to try something else. I hate having to restrain my snakes to give them injections while they're flailing their bodies around the whole time. No fun for either one of us. I just recently had success with this method and wanted to share so maybe I could help someone else who's stressin out over one of their babies.

I'm sure some of you have seen/done this before. I actually got this idea from a BHB snakebytes video, so don't think I'm some mad scientist whipping up random concoctions on my own. ;) Remember, if you can get to a vet, it's always recommended. If you try this and it doesn't work, you may have to suck it up and make the 3 hour drive to the nearest exotic animal clinic.


What you'll need:


a Zoomed Repti Fogger ($60 at petco, I found mine online for $40 plus shipping)

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/27/naja4amu.jpg



a plastic tub ($4 at Walmart or Target. I used a 15 qt tub, but size doesn't matter too much. You just don't want a huge one)

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/27/uqybaqat.jpg



F10 Veterinary Disinfectant ($15.99 from reptilebasics.com)

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/27/jy8e3y8u.jpg



and a sick snake

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/27/u7utyme9.jpg



First thing you'll want to do is put one or two ventilation holes in the side of the tub. For this I just used a soldering iron to "punch" out the holes ($10 at walmart if you dont already have one), or if you have an electric drill that will work as well.

boom.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/27/syzyqe5a.jpg



Then you'll want to cut out a hole on the lid of the tub just big enough for the plastic hose that comes with the Repti Fogger to fit in securely. (I know my hole looks janky, but it works just fine. I used the soldering iron to "cut" it out. The edges are rounded off and not sharp at all.)

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/27/utusytev.jpg



Next you'll want to dilute the F10. This is a concentrated disinfectant so it doesn't take much. Fill up the water bottle to the fogger with water then add 3 ml of F10. My F10 came with a built in measurer. If you have to use something else to measure and didn't already know, in liquid measurements, ml (milliliters) and cc (cubic centimeters) are the same thing.



Now hook the bottle up to the fogger and turn the dial on all the way up to make sure it works. I thought mine was defective at first because it didn't come on immediately. You may have to give it a couple minutes for the water to fill up the little chamber. If it works, it'll look like this:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/27/byna9yqy.jpg




Now all you do is put your snake in the tub, "plug" the end of the fogger hose up to the hole on the lid, and fog up the enclosure.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/27/ybyheqyz.jpg




It doesn't matter how high you turn it on as long as you see the tub getting completely fogged up. You'll want to fog your snake for 20 minutes, once a day, for 7-10 days. The reason this works is because the disinfectant F10 is completely safe for reptiles and it kills bacteria. A respiratory (lung) infection is a bacterial infection in your snakes lungs. When your animal breathes in this disinfectant it helps to kill off the bad bacteria infecting its lungs.

No more wheezing or clicks!

Once again, if you can make it to an exotic vet, you should. If for some reason you cannot, or if you've had a culture done and the antibiotics your vet gave you are not working, you can try this. It does seem to work.

Nice write up. I've never tried it myself, but I hear this method works wonders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by creepin

A respiratory (lung) infection is a bacterial infection in your snakes lungs. When your animal breathes in this disinfectant it helps to kill off the bad bacteria infecting its lungs.

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This will only work with bacterial RIs. There are also fungal and viral types of respiratory infections.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by satomi325

This will only work with bacterial RIs. There are also fungal and viral types of respiratory infections.

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true. i'm assuming these would most likely be the respiratory infections that don't seem to respond to the antibiotics?

Most RI's in snakes are bacterial. That's why vets are so quick to prescribe antibiotics without even doing a culture.

Thank you for this writeup, if my little dinker doesn't respond to the treatment he's on I may be trying this and I was never sure of how to do it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by creepin

Most RI's in snakes are bacterial. That's why vets are so quick to prescribe antibiotics without even doing a culture.

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Since most vets don't culture, we will never know what percentage are bacterial and what percentage are viral. It seems that there are a plague of RIs on this forum alone that do not respond to repeated rounds of different antibiotics.

Common sense would dictate that until vets do due process and start culturing, no one should assume that RIs in snakes are mainly viral or bacterial.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by creepin

Most RI's in snakes are bacterial. That's why vets are so quick to prescribe antibiotics without even doing a culture.

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Not a vet I'd go to ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Since most vets don't culture, we will never know what percentage are bacterial and what percentage are viral. It seems that there are a plague of RIs on this forum alone that do not respond to repeated rounds of different antibiotics.

Common sense would dictate that until vets do due process and start culturing, no one should assume that RIs in snakes are mainly viral or bacterial.

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makes sense, yes. although i don't know if i would go as far as calling that sense common. it requires a little deeper thinking. both of my parents are veterinarians, and while i'm in no way insinuating i'm speaking for all veterinarians, working at my mothers clinic and growing up with them, i got a lot of first hand insight as to why they and other vets in my area do things the way they do. they prescribe antibiotics because they work more often than not. if the antibiotics worked less than half the time (which would be the case if it were viral), they would start doing cultures more often. it would be a waste of antibiotics and leave you with unhappy owners and sick animals. if the antibiotics work, i would think it's safe to say it was a bacterial infection. and since antibiotics work more often than not, i think it would be safe to assume more often than not, these infections are bacterial. and while you do seem to hear about a lot of RI's not responding to antibiotics on here, i think that's probably because they've exhausted all other options and come here looking for answers. you don't hear of the hundreds of RI's that got treated and clear right up.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Not a vet I'd go to ...

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i would prefer not to either, but not everyone has the option to choose between more than one exotic vet in their area. some are lucky to even have one. some of us live in the sticks. lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by creepin

makes sense, yes. although i don't know if i would go as far as calling that sense common. it requires a little deeper thinking. both of my parents are veterinarians, and while i'm in no way insinuating i'm speaking for all veterinarians, working at my mothers clinic and growing up with them, i got a lot of first hand insight as to why they and other vets in my area do things the way they do. they prescribe antibiotics because they work more often than not. if the antibiotics worked less than half the time (which would be the case if it were viral), they would start doing cultures more often. it would be a waste of antibiotics and leave you with unhappy owners and sick animals. if the antibiotics work, i would think it's safe to say it was a bacterial infection. and since antibiotics work more often than not, i think it would be safe to assume more often than not, these infections are bacterial. and while you do seem to hear about a lot of RI's not responding to antibiotics on here, i think that's probably because they've exhausted all other options and come here looking for answers. you don't hear of the hundreds of RI's that got treated and clear right up.

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I actually think that bacterial RIs are not as common as we think. Doesn't mean that they are uncommon, just means that they should not be the first thing we assume when a snake has an RI. There are fungal causes, parasitic causes and viral causes.

In my time keeping snakes, I have had more imports come in with lungworms than bacterial RIs. When is the last time you saw someone talk about parasitic RIs on the forums? They don't because most vets just don't bother to do anything more than throw Baytril at a snake with a suspected RI.

The one time I had a spontaneous RI occur in a long term captive, it was due to a virus.

I'll repeat what I said earlier - until vets stop short-arming clients, no one knows the true breakdown of the incidences of each cause.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I actually think that bacterial RIs are not as common as we think. Doesn't mean that they are uncommon, just means that they should not be the first thing we assume when a snake has an RI. There are fungal causes, parasitic causes and viral causes.

In my time keeping snakes, I have had more imports come in with lungworms than bacterial RIs. When is the last time you saw someone talk about parasitic RIs on the forums? They don't because most vets just don't bother to do anything more than throw Baytril at a snake with a suspected RI.

The one time I had a spontaneous RI occur in a long term captive, it was due to a virus.

I'll repeat what I said earlier - until vets stop short-arming clients, no one knows the true breakdown of the incidences of each cause.

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we can both repeat what we said until we're blue in the face, but that leads to nothing. i wasn't trying to turn this into a debate. just trying to help other people out. i do not think vets should assume and treat any illness without running tests first, and many vets do this. while i do agree with some of your points, maybe you can help me understand your side better and help me fix my logic if it's incorrect. my logic does not come from reptile keeping or posts on forums. it comes from my lifelong experience having parents as veterinarians, a pediatrician grandfather, and working at a vet clinic for 8 years. i realize you're older and have more experience when it comes to keeping reptiles, although i believe i may have more experience being around veterinarians, so please correct me if i'm wrong.

antibiotics treat bacterial infections, correct?

antibiotics do not treat fungal, viral or parasitic infections.

antibiotics would not work if an animal was infected with parasites or a virus.

if illness is unknown, veterinarians (or doctors) treat an illness with the most common drug that clears these symptoms.

in a snake, if viral respiratory infections were more common than bacterial, antibiotics would not be the most common drug that cleared these symptoms.

in veterinarians' experience, antibiotics work more often than not.

-therefore, my logic is telling me bacterial respiratory infections are more common than viral or parasitic.


i'm in no way trying to offend you, belittle you, or start a heated debate, and i would appreciate the same respect in turn. just explaining where my logic comes from and putting it out there for criticism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by creepin

we can both repeat what we said until we're blue in the face, but that leads to nothing. i wasn't trying to turn this into a debate. just trying to help other people out. i do not think vets should assume and treat any illness without running tests first, and many vets do this. while i do agree with some of your points, maybe you can help me understand your side better and help me fix my logic if it's incorrect. my logic does not come from reptile keeping or posts on forums. it comes from my lifelong experience having parents as veterinarians, a pediatrician grandfather, and working at a vet clinic for 8 years. i realize you're older and have more experience when it comes to keeping reptiles, although i believe i may have more experience being around veterinarians, so please correct me if i'm wrong.

antibiotics treat bacterial infections, correct?

antibiotics do not treat fungal, viral or parasitic infections.

antibiotics would not work if an animal was infected with parasites or a virus.

if illness is unknown, veterinarians (or doctors) treat an illness with the most common drug that clears these symptoms.

in a snake, if viral respiratory infections were more common than bacterial, antibiotics would not be the most common drug that cleared these symptoms.

in veterinarians' experience, antibiotics work more often than not.

-therefore, my logic is telling me bacterial respiratory infections are more common than viral or parasitic.


i'm in no way trying to offend you, belittle you, or start a heated debate, and i would appreciate the same respect in turn. just explaining where my logic comes from and putting it out there for criticism.

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Simply put, there is no way of knowing if one is more prevalent than the other. Most vets assume everything is bacterial and treat it as such. Enlightened vets culture and treat accordingly. In may cases, the cultures show there is no proliferation of harmful bacteria.

All you have to do is talk to other keepers and find out (1) that many vets actually dissuade them from taking a culture and (2) many vets prescribe antibiotics without knowing if the cause if bacterial.

There are too many cases on this forum alone of unresolved RIs that miraculously survive round after round of antibiotics. When the boneheaded vet finally decides to take a culture, that culture is questionable because the animal has already been through two rounds of gram negative cephalosporins or other drugs.

Until culturing is the norm and until people spend money to necropsy animals that die after not responding to the blind dosing of baytril or other common antibiotics, no one has enough data to prove what the most common RI causes are.

Some RIs are secondary acute infections caused by the compromising of the immune system due to ............... wait for it ........viruses. Antibiotics may cause a temporary period of relief but do not address the underlying cause. The snake shows a lessening or cessation of symptoms, the round of meds finishes but since the CAUSE (the virus) is not identified and treated, the secondary respiratory distress eventually comes back.

Over the last 5 years alone I have got God knows how many PMs and emails from keepers whose snakes do not respond to antibiotics or whose cultures come back negative but the vet still puts them on a baytril treatment cycle. Again, until we weed out the hack exotic vets, until culturing becomes the norm, until deceased snakes are routinely necropsied, I would not hazard to say what the common cause of most RIs are.

I lost my hero worship of vets a long time ago. No disrespect to your parents, but I've seen too many hacks who I wouldn't hire pull a tick off of my butt. I've got three decades in this hobby dealing in snakes, importing snakes, breeding snakes and selling snakes. I've treated a lot of imports for a lot of diseases and I've helped customers deal with their own health issues. I've got a vet I've used for a long time who is a true exotics vet and who I trust implicitly. I can honestly tell you that in my time, in my experience, I would not be so vain that I would dare state that I know what the most common cause of RIs in snakes are.

Your post is informative and based on experiences from people I know and trust, the F10 nebulizing treatment shows a lot of promise. Let's leave it at that.

preciate the schoolin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by creepin

preciate the discussion.

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There, fixed it for you.

F10 is a fungicide and a virucide - correct? If so, maybe the F10 nebulizing treatment acts on three of the four known causes of RIs in snakes..................

An honest question.

Around the time of BHB's video I had asked my vet to look into F10 nebulizer treatments and get back to me on her thoughts.

Her recommendation was not to use F10 as some of the ingredients in it she was concerned with their affects on the animal. I'm spacing on the exact ingredient but something specific that was more acidic/caustic than what she would feel comfortable an animal inhaling.

She offered up that she thought you would see similar results with saline solution as you would with an F10 mixture. Insinuating the actual nebulization is where the real benefit is, as opposed to F10 itself.

What if any experience do people who nebulize have with not using F10 in the mix vs using it?

Just curious.

Thanks!

I too FIRMLY believe a culture is the best way to deal with RI, it is important to remember a culture should be done BEFORE any antibiotics have been given after it skues the result.

That said it is possiable F10sc will effect fungal and viral (very sketchy viral is wicked difficult) It is a broad spectrum chemical.

There is annother point that needs to be very very CLEAR!!!! F10 is a name of a manufacturer not a product. It is like me saying Bayer daily can help thin the blood... The disenfecting system from F10 includes products that if you nebulize them will most likely KILL the snake. Lets be CLEAR F10SC and only SC should be nebulized.

F10SCxd, F919, F10 odour eliminator or any other F10 product (some are listed as toxic to reptiles period) should NEVER be used in a nebulizer!

JD, no vet would risk suggesting any treatment that was NOT approved in the US (F10 is not), she could lose her licence. There are a lot of European case studies,
http://www.f10biocare.co.uk/F10factsissue1.pdf
http://www.f10biocare.co.uk/F10factsissue4.pdf
http://www.f10biocare.co.uk/F10factsissue7.pdf

there are more I just don't have links in front of me. I am on the fence as a treatment I would recommend a culture be done. It is also clear that not everyone can get to a vet or find a good vet (treating without at least suggesting a culture = poor vet IMO) F10 may offer a better than nothing solution. I believe this to be the spirit creepin intended. (sorry to put words into your mouth, creepin )

This is something which has frustrated me for some time.

There is (as far as I have seen) an unchecked problem in the ball python community, stemming from respiratory infections.

There are a few main reasons this has remained an unchecked problem, and bloomed into a potentially disastrous scenario.

1.) Misinformation - spreading information like this is a big culprit. This is not veterinary medicine 101, this is reckless and dangerous.

2.) Not utilizing proper veterinary care.

If you have a snake which is sick, you start with a culture w/sensitivity - period. If this illuminates the problem, then treat accordingly.

Blindly treating, without testing to see if it is effective is about the most dangerous thing you can do.

Here are a few reasons:

1.) If you are treating against a bacterial infection which is resistant to the infection you are doing little more than damaging the immune system and allowing the bacterial infection to flourish.

2.) If you are treating with the correct antibiotic but at the wrong treatment, you are encouraging the bacteria to mutate - potentially making a resistant strain in your wake.

3.) SOME Bacterial infections are zoonotic, here's a great for instance (especially considering that in my opinion, this bacteria is responsible for MOST of the respiratory infections in ball pythons, carpets and burmese pythons). Let's say Pseudomonas aeruginosa is the cause of the infection, which requires a very aggressive treatment path - and you don't test. So then you slam it full of baytril (which should kill it, but because of the efflux valve it does not effectively eliminate the infection). You work in the room and pick it up on you, you visit your child, neighbor or friend's kid who has Cystic fibrosis - well you basically just gave that kid a death sentence.

The reason so many opinions are flying around is because most are not based on fact. If you aren't running cultures you don't know what your snake has.

If your vet is over-priced, or you're paranoid, or whatever... there are labs which can run them on the cheap! www.Caadl.com is one of them, swab your snake and mail in the culture yourself if you need to. I do not use them (I have a vet I trust), and there is a disparity between the care a competent vet can provide vs. a lab.....but the disparity is much smaller than that which is a great chasm of difference in online help from breeders and your vet.

As far as F-10 goes, this is a a cleaner. This is NOT an antibiotic. Although it can reduce the bacterial growth on the lung tissue (which can AID in treatment in conjunction with antibiotics) it is not a treatment. It's most effective component is that it keeps the biofilm growth in enclosures from propagating.

Running a less harsh bactericide/fungicide/virucide (like Nolvason-S) in a room humidifier while treating can serve the same purpose, while being less invasive.

If your results come back with Pseudomonas aeruginosa clinical studies have shown that a dual antibiotic approach is the most effective, 2 full courses of ceftazidime coupled with one full course of amikacin. Wipe down enclosures, bowls etc.. daily with a bactericide, and treat the entire enclosure with rocal, nolvason-s, bleach or f-10 thoroughly at the end of treatment.

Good luck,
Jordan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JordanRussell

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Running a less harsh bactericide/fungicide/virucide (like Nolvason-S) in a room humidifier while treating can serve the same purpose, while being less invasive.
...
Good luck,
Jordan

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I agree with everything mostly but this. CHD (Chlorhexidine Diacetate) the principal component is de-activated by organic materials so the humidifier would need to be new and cleaned daily or more. It also is reckless advise, CHD changes with heat (not all humidifiers are cool) to become quite toxic. Your points around drugs follow true for disinfectants CHD/CHG both are sensitive to organic material and have relatively poor stability. You have suggested a method that would create resistant bacterium as well. A deactivated disinfectant is not going to do anything else. Like you I cry against misuse/incorrect use, of in my case disinfectants, and sadly there are more whom mis-use disinfectants than correctly use them.

http://www.vetdepot.com/product-labels/nolvasan-s.pdf

How exactly is F10 more 'harsh' than CHD?

CHD MSDS has far more cautions than that of F10. F10 is basically stable and does not have any hazardous decomposition products. For that matter any condition or state or exposure that makes it a hazard. CHD does for both. F10 if mixed with strong alkalis, may neutralize or reduce disinfectant qualities, and is an irritant if in eyes and ingested. CHD may release toxic vapours when subjected to heat, may be harmful if swallowed, and medical advise should be obtained if you get it in your eyes. It is hard to say F10 is harsh compared with CHD/G.

You are absolutely correct, and thank you for pointing this out.

I want to make sure it is clear, anyone planning to treat an issue needs to consult their veterinarian - do not take my word or anyone else's.

With that said, I made a blunder as well as an unclear point.

My intentions were to state that utilizing a microbial filter in the treatment room in conjunction with nolvason treated water in a humidifier (mine is an evaporative fan unit, heated units would be dangerous as mentioned) - is safer than fogging with f10sc in an enclosed environment as a treatment method.

Also as you mentioned if this were done daily you are increasing the probability of whatever infection is present towards mutation.

This is what I have done during treatment in an isolated area, as recommended per my vet. This is not a day in day out procedure. The purpose of this approach (in conjunction with antibiotics) is to decrease the ability for the Pseudomonas to propagate a biofilm on the inanimate enclosure, during treatment.

Hopefully this clarifies.

Cheers,
Jordan

Better but the fact still remains that any organic matter renders CHD/CHG useless with the nature of a humidifier it would need to be solely used for this purpose and also mixed with distilled water (always with CHD/CHG is best it has a short a shelf life.) Also there are there any case studies I have not found one. Also the precautions listed for misting/fogging are crazy. I do not think this is a good idea full stop!
From the instructions on nolvasan

"When applying by wet-mist fogging: Applicators and other handlers exposed to the fog during wet-mist fogging applications and until the fog has dissipated and the enclosed area has been thoroughly ventilated must wear: Long- sleeve shirt and long pants, rubber gloves, socks plus shoes, and a full face respirator with a canister approved for pesticides (MSHA/NIOSH approval number prefix TC-14-G).
Do not apply this product in a way that will contact workers or other persons, either directly or through drift. Only protected handlers may be in the area during application."

It is more aggressive than F10 I would suggest it being a more effective and far safer method than CHD chg.

http://datasheets.scbt.com/sc-359873_mfr.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Have your snake ever had a pink belly (as a sign of respiratory infections) before prior to installing this system? If yes did the fogger help the RI? I am suspecting that my snake has minor RI because he's not about to shed but has been having pink bellies, so I am wondering if I should get this set up if it would help. I read other people's reply underneath but I'm curious so olease let me know, my ball python snake Butters is a cutie and I don't want him to sick :P

Thank you!

Pink Belly is absolutely not a RI sign at all. RI is respiratory infection it starts with elevated head position open mouth breathing weezing pops and noises and mucus discharge. There is no point where the belly becomes pink. That is a burn or beginnings of scale rot if it is not a shed. They sometimes get irritated spots here and there but large places is something else, not RI.

I did this after watching an episode of SnakeBytesTV where Brian at BHB demo's this exact process. I caught the RI in my albino in a very early stage (just starting to barely wheeze and have bubbles in the mouth). After a week of doing this he completely lost all signs of sickness and started eating again. I highly recommend this process :)

I know this is super old but I really need to know: is F10 the same as chlorhexidine? I have two rescued bps with RI and I wanted to know if Hex can be used in the same way as the F10 since I already have the Hex in hand?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pterolykus

I know this is super old but I really need to know: is F10 the same as chlorhexidine? I have two rescued bps with RI and I wanted to know if Hex can be used in the same way as the F10 since I already have the Hex in hand?

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No it's not.

Go and see a vet and have a culture done and have the proper anti-biotics prescribed. Cutting corners will not help those animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

No it's not.

Go and see a vet and have a culture done and have the proper anti-biotics prescribed. Cutting corners will not help those animals.

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Of course! I would just like to try a cheaper alternative out before paying $800+ ($1600+ for both snakes since vets only take one patient pet appointment). I know that home remedies don't work for all but for some it does. Of course, if this doesn't work, I would have no choice but to bring them to a vet which I would gladly do if it means getting these snakes back to full health.

Yeesh, try another vet maybe. My girl was only a $116 bill for an exam, culture, and antibiotics. $800 for treating a perfectly common snake ailment seems... price gougy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pterolykus

Of course! I would just like to try a cheaper alternative out before paying $800+ ($1600+ for both snakes since vets only take one patient pet appointment). I know that home remedies don't work for all but for some it does. Of course, if this doesn't work, I would have no choice but to bring them to a vet which I would gladly do if it means getting these snakes back to full health.

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get a new vet. on two snakes with RI's and eye infections I've spent less than 500 bucks total, and that's 4 visits, antibiotics, oitments etc etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pterolykus

Of course! I would just like to try a cheaper alternative out before paying $800+ ($1600+ for both snakes since vets only take one patient pet appointment). I know that home remedies don't work for all but for some it does. Of course, if this doesn't work, I would have no choice but to bring them to a vet which I would gladly do if it means getting these snakes back to full health.

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Vets are like anything else you need to shop around and you need to be in control when it comes to what should be done.

The longer you wait the more difficult it is to treat, and your plan will only aliviate the symptoms.

You took in rescues that's great but that also mean you must be able to afford proper treatment.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I just recently paid $125 for respiratory infection treatment for a snake. That included two vet visits (one initial and one three weeks later where she was given the all clear), two bottles of antibiotics (100 ml each time - I was the one who insisted on fresh antibiotics when extending treatment for another week after the first two, this added $15), and syringes and needles for all the daily injections. Just the initial vet visit and initial bottle of antibiotics and syringes and needles was only $75. The vet specializes in exotics and only has hours once a week for a couple hours in the evening.

If you've actually confirmed $800 as the price estimate with your vet's office, finding a different vet is a much better option than putting off vet treatment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Vets are like anything else you need to shop around and you need to be in control when it comes to what should be done.

The longer you wait the more difficult it is to treat, and your plan will only aliviate the symptoms.

You took in rescues that's great but that also mean you must be able to afford proper treatment.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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No kidding. I didn't say anywhere that I couldn't afford it. I was just looking for an alternative as stated before, before I go off and spend a ton of money. Like other people in this forum have earlier stated that it has worked for them. I do understand that vets are important but If something works than I'd like to try it out first.
Everyone talking about finding another vet, I actually have and the prices are still pretty high compared to what you guys are telling me. I took my pet rat to my new vet (they're a popularexotic vet they have a tv show on animal planet called doctor Ks exotic animal ER) and just to treat my rats pneumonia it was around $200 for the single visit and some oral medication and it hasn't even helped so more money must be spent on some more vet visits. I have called up several exotic vets in my area and they all have the same prices (besides the one with the outrageous $800 bill).
Like I said before, I will not hesitate to bring them to a vet, I would not have rescued them if I couldn't handle it. I would just like to try this out since it worked for so many others.
I'm sure many of you have tried to take advil or other home remedies for your own sicknesses before scheduling for a doctors appointment to save the money that could possibly be unnecessary.
Please do not attack me for saying this as I am stating for the numerith time that I am more than willing to take them to a vet if alternatives do not work for me.
I will have you know that I have used a similar method including eucalyptus oil and it has so far worked a little with one of the snakes so I would like to try another method with the other before scheduling for a vet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pterolykus

No kidding. I didn't say anywhere that I couldn't afford it. I was just looking for an alternative as stated before, before I go off and spend a ton of money. Like other people in this forum have earlier stated that it has worked for them. I do understand that vets are important but If something works than I'd like to try it out first.
Everyone talking about finding another vet, I actually have and the prices are still pretty high compared to what you guys are telling me. I took my pet rat to my new vet (they're a popularexotic vet they have a tv show on animal planet called doctor Ks exotic animal ER) and just to treat my rats pneumonia it was around $200 for the single visit and some oral medication and it hasn't even helped so more money must be spent on some more vet visits. I have called up several exotic vets in my area and they all have the same prices (besides the one with the outrageous $800 bill).
Like I said before, I will not hesitate to bring them to a vet, I would not have rescued them if I couldn't handle it. I would just like to try this out since it worked for so many others.
I'm sure many of you have tried to take advil or other home remedies for your own sicknesses before scheduling for a doctors appointment to save the money that could possibly be unnecessary.
Please do not attack me for saying this as I am stating for the numerith time that I am more than willing to take them to a vet if alternatives do not work for me.
I will have you know that I have used a similar method including eucalyptus oil and it has so far worked a little with one of the snakes so I would like to try another method with the other before scheduling for a vet.

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I didn't read one reply to your post that was an attack in the slightest.

Good luck if that's how you respond to people giving you their advice on an open forum.

And also, you went to a vet with a tv show, that right there has price gouge written all over it. If all your local vets are charging $800 then...good luck again.

Way too expansive, I'd try a different vet.

Just had one of my burmese come down with a lung infection. She has very little evident symptoms, just found a few bubbles from the mouth once. Turns out the infection is in the lower respiratory tract and only the vet could understand the severity. Do not underestimate RIs.

She had a lung wash and culture of the fluid. Paid little more then 300 euros for the operation (anesthesia, wash and culture + 2 vet visits) plus 30 euros of antibiotic.

It is not worth it to give advise or argue with this guy. Read his past threads. He is on his own sheet of music and needs to stop "rescuing" animals in my opinion.

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I will have you know that I have used a similar method including eucalyptus oil and it has so far worked a little with one of the snakes so I would like to try another method with the other before scheduling for a vet.

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DO NOT USE oil with your snake, this is the worse thing you can actually do and yes I am well aware of what some people do or claim that works, does not mean it's true or not dangerous and oils are dangerous for snakes.

For the rest it's YOUR choice you can just keep waiting rather then get a culture and the right antibiotic, ultimately your snakes, you wanted advice you got it.

Sometimes what's right and what you want to hear are not the same thing, and that's just the bottom line.

Apparently not a first. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ytril-use-help

Is this the same animal or do you just keep having RI because if it the same it's been long enough (Nov 2016) and if not the same animal and you keep having RI there is definitely some issues that need to be addressed. (That many RI in such a small amount of time in several animals means there is something terribly wrong that need to be handled)

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

It is not worth it to give advise or argue with this guy. Read his past threads. He is on his own sheet of music and needs to stop "rescuing" animals in my opinion.

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ya...just reread some of his posts...states he couldn't afford 1 snake's care less than 6 months ago, now he can foot a supposed $1600 in vet bills lol...I have to learn to read other posts first...

Eucalyptus oil has high levels of the same type of aromatic phenols that make even just cedar wood a dangerous choice for reptiles. It's not really a safe choice in any amount :/ Eucalyptus oil likely has at least some efficacy against microorganisms, but that same mechanism will irritate the lungs and damage the liver and kidneys. One of the biggest challenges in medicine is to get something that is targeted to the undesired organism rather than just something that is efficacious against the undesired organism but also does damage to the host. Please at least consider the potential side effects of using eucalyptus oil that can't be readily seen.

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Originally Posted by predatorkeeper87

ya...just reread some of his posts...states he couldn't afford 1 snake's care less than 6 months ago, now he can foot a supposed $1600 in vet bills lol...I have to learn to read other posts first...

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First of all, I wasn't saying that I was being attacked. My bad if it seemed that way. I meant in future.
Second, the snake care I was referring to back then was the $800 bill I am currently referring to.
Third, I am not saying that I can afford a $1600 bill. You're taking my replies way out of context.
Fourth, I said that all my vets have the same price EXCEPT the outrageous $800 bill. You should maybe double read something before replying to it.
So yes, if I do find a vet that is around $150 like you guys are saying you have paid I am more than happy to pay. It's the $800 bill that I am reluctant on because clearly that vet overcharged on everything.

I am not ungreatful for any of yoir advice. I am not implying that I am currently being attacked (although now i feel as I am since I'm being insulted due to people taking things way out of context). I am able to care for my animals and no I do not "rescue" I rescue. I do not take in anything I cannot handle as I am stating once again that I am willing to make vet appointments with REASONABLY PRICED VETS. I will keep looking but no vet I have spoken with will give me a price estimate they all say that I must make an appointment first. So unless the only way for me to find the right vet is by paying a $75 visit fee than that's pretty ridiculous. Are there any other ways to look for price estimates?
I am not an unreasonable person I'm just trying to get the information I'm asking for. I just don't understand how so many people earlier on have said that this method works and now suddenly people are denying it.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

DO NOT USE oil with your snake, this is the worse thing you can actually do and yes I am well aware of what some people do or claim that works, does not mean it's true or not dangerous and oils are dangerous for snakes.

For the rest it's YOUR choice you can just keep waiting rather then get a culture and the right antibiotic, ultimately your snakes, you wanted advice you got it.

Sometimes what's right and what you want to hear are not the same thing, and that's just the bottom line.

Apparently not a first. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ytril-use-help

Is this the same animal or do you just keep having RI because if it the same it's been long enough (Nov 2016) and if not the same animal and you keep having RI there is definitely some issues that need to be addressed. (That many RI in such a small amount of time in several animals means there is something terribly wrong that need to be handled)

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Thank you for the info on the oils. I had no idea and have clearly been given false information.
I do not keep having RIs these snakes came to me from a lady who clearly took poor care of them. I honestly had no idea they were sick when I got them since I have kept them in quarantine and haven't taken them out until after quarantine was up to examine them.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

It is not worth it to give advise or argue with this guy. Read his past threads. He is on his own sheet of music and needs to stop "rescuing" animals in my opinion.

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Also, I am not sure what post you're referring to but I have never argued with someone on how I treat my animals. I have only made two posts and for both I have been given advice and have accepted that advice. I have no idea where you are looking but you should probably stop taking everything so far out of context.

I think maybe you should reread what you TYPE first before you post it. We're responding to the posts as presented. if you're leaving out information, we can't respond to that information, only what you typed.

As for finding a good, reasonably priced vet, I would look up reviews of local vets in your area. Plenty of those to be found online.

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

I think maybe you should reread what you TYPE first before you post it. We're responding to the posts as presented. if you're leaving out information, we can't respond to that information, only what you typed.

As for finding a good, reasonably priced vet, I would look up reviews of local vets in your area. Plenty of those to be found online.

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I don't know what you're referring to when you say I'm leaving stuff out. I think I'm being pretty straight forward.
But anyway, thanks for the info. That's what I want to see. I'll make sure to check out reviews and see if anyone has put what they paid in any. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Pterolykus

First of all, I wasn't saying that I was being attacked. My bad if it seemed that way. I meant in future.
Second, the snake care I was referring to back then was the $800 bill I am currently referring to.
Third, I am not saying that I can afford a $1600 bill. You're taking my replies way out of context.
Fourth, I said that all my vets have the same price EXCEPT the outrageous $800 bill. You should maybe double read something before replying to it.
So yes, if I do find a vet that is around $150 like you guys are saying you have paid I am more than happy to pay. It's the $800 bill that I am reluctant on because clearly that vet overcharged on everything.

I am not ungreatful for any of yoir advice. I am not implying that I am currently being attacked (although now i feel as I am since I'm being insulted due to people taking things way out of context). I am able to care for my animals and no I do not "rescue" I rescue. I do not take in anything I cannot handle as I am stating once again that I am willing to make vet appointments with REASONABLY PRICED VETS. I will keep looking but no vet I have spoken with will give me a price estimate they all say that I must make an appointment first. So unless the only way for me to find the right vet is by paying a $75 visit fee than that's pretty ridiculous. Are there any other ways to look for price estimates?
I am not an unreasonable person I'm just trying to get the information I'm asking for. I just don't understand how so many people earlier on have said that this method works and now suddenly people are denying it.

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well then get in your car and drive to a vet that won't charge 800 dollars, also the books you type I can't bring myself to read through entirely....

no one denied the methods, everyone smartly stated that a vet visit, culture and appropriate antibiotic is what is needed along with the supplemental care we provide via F10 fogging or what have you. That alone is not going to cure an RI unless the snake is otherwise healthy and its immune system does 99.9% of the work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pterolykus

Thank you for the info on the oils. I had no idea and have clearly been given false information.
I do not keep having RIs these snakes came to me from a lady who clearly took poor care of them. I honestly had no idea they were sick when I got them since I have kept them in quarantine and haven't taken them out until after quarantine was up to examine them.

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Periodic health checks should be integrated into a quarantine procedure. Many also integrate a vet check and/or a fecal into the quarantine. At the very least a periodic health check and a visual examination of all feces should be performed to check for abnormalities. If you are not checking for symptoms during the quarantine period, there is not all that much point in it. The purpose of the quarantine is to give time for symptoms of illnesses to be identified before potentially introducing it to other snakes. If you're not watching the snakes for the symptoms to develop, you're not really doing anything with the quarantine.

Edit: well, technically you'd still avoid introducing anything that would kill within 90 days (or whatever your quarantine period is). Anything non-lethal, not so much.

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Originally Posted by predatorkeeper87

well then get in your car and drive to a vet that won't charge 800 dollars, also the books you type I can't bring myself to read through entirely....

no one denied the methods, everyone smartly stated that a vet visit, culture and appropriate antibiotic is what is needed along with the supplemental care we provide via F10 fogging or what have you. That alone is not going to cure an RI unless the snake is otherwise healthy and its immune system does 99.9% of the work.

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Ok that's relatively what I needed to hear. I'm the type of person who needs info not just including "go to a vet". I like to know why something wont work and how. Like you said "it won't cure the snake unles it's healthy and the immune system takes most control." Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Kcl

Periodic health checks should be integrated into a quarantine procedure. Many also integrate a vet check and/or a fecal into the quarantine. At the very least a periodic health check and a visual examination of all feces should be performed to check for abnormalities. If you are not checking for symptoms during the quarantine period, there is not all that much point in it. The purpose of the quarantine is to give time for symptoms of illnesses to be identified before potentially introducing it to other snakes. If you're not watching the snakes for the symptoms to develop, you're not really doing anything with the quarantine.

Edit: well, technically you'd still avoid introducing anything that would kill within 90 days (or whatever your quarantine period is). Anything non-lethal, not so much.

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Thank you for your input I will definitely keep that in mind! I do look out for abnormal behaviors in the snakes but I haven't taken them out during quarantine. I will keep this noted thanks.

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Originally Posted by Pterolykus

Thank you for your input I will definitely keep that in mind! I do look out for abnormal behaviors in the snakes but I haven't taken them out during quarantine. I will keep this noted thanks.

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A physical examination only takes a few minutes and can be done at the same time as moving them for cleaning to minimize disruption. Just make sure you touch them LAST to maintain quarantine. Also sanitize hands between every cage, use different tools, etc. I look at their general body condition, check their cloaca for any redness or dirt or other abnormalities, look at the face for discharge, check the eyes for any dents, wrinkling etc, look for mites, listen for their breathing. I also weigh them periodically. There may be other things that I'm not remembering right now, but it's all pretty quick while still allowing you to find problems asap, including respiratory infections.

I also examine feces every time, checking for consistency, color, any visual presence of parasites, etc. The visual examination of fecal matter doesn't require disturbing the snake at all of course.

An animal behaving abnormally can certainly be a sign of a problem, but other ones tend to show up earlier, many of which can be caught by this kind of check.

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Originally Posted by Kcl

A physical examination only takes a few minutes and can be done at the same time as moving them for cleaning to minimize disruption. Just make sure you touch them LAST to maintain quarantine. Also sanitize hands between every cage, use different tools, etc. I look at their general body condition, check their cloaca for any redness or dirt or other abnormalities, look at the face for discharge, check the eyes for any dents, wrinkling etc, look for mites, listen for their breathing. I also weigh them periodically. There may be other things that I'm not remembering right now, but it's all pretty quick while still allowing you to find problems asap, including respiratory infections.

I also examine feces every time, checking for consistency, color, any visual presence of parasites, etc. The visual examination of fecal matter doesn't require disturbing the snake at all of course.

An animal behaving abnormally can certainly be a sign of a problem, but other ones tend to show up earlier, many of which can be caught by this kind of check.

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You have been a big help for the future thank you so much!

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Originally Posted by Pterolykus

You have been a big help for the future thank you so much!

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Always happy to try to help people identify animals' illnesses as early as possible. Luckily this process let me identify my baby boa's RI before there was any visible mucus, any wheezing, any gaping of the mouth, etc. The only symptom at the time was a very quiet click that the doctor had to quiet the room to hear (even with his scope) a small amount of mucus in the mouth once opened, and inconsistent eating which could have been a large number of factors (she was a new to us, pretty underweight baby).

My process is primarily developed from volunteering in wildlife rehab. For wildlife, I do as much of the check as is possible without touching the animal (with some deletions and additions based on species - birds will have some different signs than reptiles, etc), unless I already have to pick up an animal to move it, in which case I might do anything additional that wouldn't add handling time. The additional checks that do require handling I do for my snakes because they are meant to be handled eventually and won't be harmed by a minute or two. Animals that really shouldn't be handled in general, like if you had a particularly delicate snake species (hatchling gtp?, others), I'd just look as much as I can (i.e. if it happens to be crawling on something, I'd try to look at it's cloaca then and stare at it until either it happened to be visible or the animal was bothered or went to hide) unless a problem was identified and go from there.

Now I am wondering how long my girl has been sick for. She had a ton of mucus and bubbles, and when she was breathing while I held her at the vet I could feel her sometimes take a deeper breath that rattled. She was sold to me as a picky eater, but she might just have been ill the whole time in this other person's collection. She got her from a FB auction last August, and the original seller hasn't responded to any of my attempts to contact him, so heck if I know how long he had her for before that or how long this has been going on for the poor kid.