My little rant......

I am seeing a disturbing trend going on in the forums as of late.....to put it suscinctly: Newbies giving other newbies bad advice/information. IMO, this has to stop.

I hope I do not convey an image that I think I am "holier than thou" or "better" than anyone else.....I am just very concerned that some of the members here may not be getting the proper help they need from the proper sources. I can think of several instances (I won't name names) where advice that was given was extremely erroneous to the extent that it was potentially dangerous for the animal(s) involved and whoever decides to follow said advice.

I am not the most knowledgable person in the world nor do I see myself as the end-all, be-all of herp keeping. I just see something that bothers me, so I'm going to voice my opinion about it. We all are here to learn....and that process is interrupted when certain individuals take matters into their own hands and throw chinks into our smooth sailing here.

I realize that many of us here are eager to learn and share our new-found knowledge with others....this can be a great thing if properly harnessed. If handled improperly it can be diastrous. OK,. thats my rant for the day.....thanks for reading, lol. :D

This is obviously a public forum. Maybe instead of people taking it as advice they look at it as a second opinion... People say what they believe and even though newbs give other newbs advice some are still more expeierenced then others, Its pretty obvious you are more expiernced then most of the people on this forum and can look down on most of our mistakes and correct them as you see fit to your expierences. It is always good to have a correct opinion and maybe instead of looking at it as newbz giving other newbz advice, its a little bit more safer for the forums to just look at it as a "been there done that" situation and if you know what to do you might as well share your expierences in order to help somebody who is not as familiar with what you have already done (ie: cage setups,lightings, etc etc..).. people like you David have good use in these forums.. And thats making people like me or anybody else more aware of problems that might happen and aware of problems that I myself might have coming to me. ;)

I think if n00bs come looking for advice and get input from 4 or 5 people (as is typical here), and all but one are giving the same advice, the n00b will go with what the majority are saying unless s/he really didn't want advice in the first place. We all know that there is more than one way to approach just about every aspect of husbandry and still get it right -- for example, getting humidity right through water dish type and size, a mister or humidifier, live plants and misting, a humid hide, etc. All of those work and all are safe for the snake and keeper, so it's a matter of what works best for a given situation.

I think we should save the extreme reactions for when keepers are doing something unsafe for the snake such as using an unregulated, unmonitored reptile heat mat, or having an exposed heat source inside the enclosure, and otherwise just approach things in a friendly way, such as "I used to do that too, but I get much better results since I switched to doing this," or "My ball python has become a regular eater for me since I replaced his thin cardboard hides with heavier, more secure hides."

In other words, it comes down to there's a lot of ways to skin a cat and you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. :)

I think a good husbandry debate is always welcome, I think it is insane to expect all people to follow a single train of thought as far as husbandry goes. And most "newbies" giving advice learned it from others, crappy husbandry advice spreads like wildfire as we all know.

I just hope that in 99.9% of cases where bad advice is indeed spewed there is 10 times as many people with the correct advice to counter it.

Advice is a good thing, bad advice is a bad thing. But bad advice that goes uncountered in a herp forum is terrible. People like you David keep the good advice flowing over the bad, which keeps everything in check and the proper husbandry known.

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Originally Posted by LouEvil

I am seeing a disturbing trend going on in the forums as of late.....to put it suscinctly: Newbies giving other newbies bad advice/information. IMO, this has to stop.

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I agree with your line of thinking, David, but the question may become "Who is qualified to dispense advice, and not considered a n00b?" I don't think we can make such qualifications, as we don't know everyone on the site, their experience or maturity level, or their level of prior research. Ultimately it is the individual keepers responsibility to corroborate independently the advice they have been given with other sources.

I, for one, will never tell someone, "You are not qualified to give advice." That is not my call to make. If people come here asking questions, anyone is entitled to answer, even if they are wrong. Other members of the site can post more appropriate answers, and the original poster can decide which advice they want to follow, if any.

I have to agree with Randy. It's the keeper's responsibility to cull through all the advice they get and figure out what is best. I don't even own a ball python, and yet I frequently give advice on keeping them. Am I too newbish to do so? No one has yet complained about the advice I give. Yes, I sometimes see a "newbie" giving advice to questions asked...and sometimes that advice is questionable. And if you're seeing that, too...that means something is working RIGHT...because you are there to step in and offer something better. In the end, it's up to the person who asked the question in the first place to decide what makes the most sense. It's not up to us to decide who should and shouldn't be posting advice....because if it were, then I doubt I would make the cut.

If no one gives advice then how are people supposed to learn from each other. People usually come here in despiration to find an answere to their particular problem. If someone gives advice that may not be fully correct but maybe partialy then its up to the more experienced keepers to intervene not to correct the person. The person who posted the incorrect information can deduce for themselves what is the right thing to do. Looking at other posts and such people get that AH HA feeling or enlightened to correct any problems that they have.

These posts are not to just answer one question at a time. For example lets say someone has a question about humidity. People then respond to that question and often times the string tends to wonder on to other aspects of husbandry. When someone comes across this string they learn from the posts writen by many people. In other words we are here to work together to help people. Even though there are some inexperienced keepers here imagine how much they are learning just by going through one of these strings. If people take offence to being told that the husbandry methods they are using are dead wrong then they will be very rulectent to change. We cant make everyone happy all the time but here the well being of the critters are the first things on our minds and not to worry if we hurt someones feelings.

Read this if you need to be reminded why we are all here. I made this post not too long ago. http://www.ball-pythons.net/PNphpBB2...ic-t-2907.html

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Originally Posted by JLC

In the end, it's up to the person who asked the question in the first place to decide what makes the most sense.

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I have to disagree with that statement a bit. If someone is coming to the forum to get some advice then they obviously don't know what to do in the case of whatever they are asking about. If it is left up to them to decide "what makes the most sense" they may not choose what is right.

Example - It "makes the most sense" to feed live since that is what snakes eat in the wild. Yet that is a horrible idea. I believe all are entitled to give advice on what they feel qualified to do so. BUT when someone gives incorrect advice it SHOULD be pointed out as incorrect by a more qualified keeper so that the member asking the question doesn't choose the wrong advice by the simple idea that it is "what makes the most sense"

I'm not saying NObody should give advice......and I know you all will agree with me, there are some members here who just have no business telling other people how to care for their animals when they have little to no idea how to do so themselves.

And Kent brings up an excellent point......how is a newbie supposed to know what advice is good and what isn't? They have to go by what we say......and if someone tells them not to use tongs when feeding because they're "sissy" or some other BS like that.....what kind of impression is that going to leave? Whether we like it or not, we have a major responsibility by posting on these forums.....we have alot of influence over what other herpers do, especially when they come here looking for help.....we should always try our best to point them in the right direction(s).

i read more idiot advice on this herp forum than any other i visit. and i mean that with the upmost respect.

... i think it has a lot to do with the fact that most n00bs are too lazy to research.

Maybe laziness plays a small factor. And i agree that if you dont know the correct answer to something don't respond to it but wait and maybe you will learn something. But it turns out that we learn that people are practicing bad husbandry by an abritrary remark. Otherwise we would have no idea what the NOOBs were up to. Lots of newbees think that they are doing things right because it doesnt seem to do harm or have ill effects on their critters and not realize that some of the things they are doing are detrimental to their herps in the long run. I know that everyone tries to help and its greatly appreciated but I say if you dont know the answer to something. Like feeding a rat with your hands. It might work 99% of the time but when another newbee tries it and gets bit that 1% of the time maybe the chance is greater with inexperience but if they get bit it will turn them away from herps thinking that they are mean or aggressive when we all know thats simply not true. I just want people to have the best herp keeping experience and become experienced herpers themselves.

Look we all have to start somewhere. None of us are born with a plethura of knowledge but we aquire this knowledge hearing what other people have to say. And if someone gives the wrong information chances are that they heard it from someone else so lets not shoot the messenger.

Sorry for the wordy post but this is a good dialog.

ill put it this way... when i got my first ball python, it was a month after reading the first of just about every caresheet on the net. then speaking with AT LEAST 10 bp owner's and learning the small tricks of the trade. Before I bought my snake, it had 2 hides, perfect temp and humidity... the works. what i'm getting at here is... there are 2 different kinds of "noobs"... the kind who are eager to learn how to care for a snake, bc they love reptiles... and the kind who think it makes them look cool. i do believe this site carries a lot of both types.

Newbies should definately check out the "reputation" of the poster. If I ask a question, I look for the answerer's "rank" like lieutenant, moderator, etc. Or I look at the answerer's photo gallery and check out how long they've owned their herps, etc.
Sure, you have to take everything online with a few grains of salt. But hopefully, any false information posted on this board will be corrected in a friendly and polite manner. If the incorrect person refuses to acknowledge his/her mistake or change their improper husbandry recommendations, maybe we can give them a sort of "negative" rating? Like, rate them as a "tax collector" or "proctologist?"Just an idea. :)

Yeah Will - I too had read volumes and purchased and read two books before posting on this forum and never even tried to give advice until I had been around a while - plus I always add the disclaimer that others probably know more than I. If you haven't read more than four caresheets on the particular animal and gotten advice from credible sources it's probably not wise to give others advice. Taking a stab at it is okay (I did that in a post about pinky pumps) but be sure to add that you're taking a stab and not totally sure. (KLG posted after me and cleared up my incorrectness :) )

I'm all for having some sort of system to rate people as far as overall herp knowledge and experience- is there a way to do that?

This is an interesting topic. I dont' know how we could be ranked by knowledge...........post counts don't really work because people can get thier ranks up by posting alot and not really give or gain much knowledge...
I suspect that we just may have to keep reading posts and politely correcting bad advice as it comes up. From what I've seen our moderators and other more knowledgable members have been on the ball (pun intended :roll: ) as far as spotting shady info and hipping those needing to know of the correct methods. It would be nice to have a "knowledge meter" on members, but am stumped for a way to implement it...........
Maybe a simple message on the home page or perhaps near the title of the post saying something like "If you aren't sure, don't give advice" or something along those lines....for some people, signs work well...
Just my 2cents.

Ok guys, I'm a noob in that I just became responsible for my first BP a month ago. However, I've been very successful with other herps and have been around other knowledgeable Boid keepers AND did plenty of research before bringing one home. Regardless of what I've learned, I still feel that talking to other keepers is where I obtain the most valuable knowledge. I may ask a question that seems elementary (and sometimes I really don't know much about it) but usually I'm trying to get ideas of what works and what doesn't, afterall a book is really just a guideline. It's the real experience that I find the most useful in my pursuit in becoming a successful and responsible keeper.
How about you tell me when I am allowed to give advice b/c after what's been going on here the past couple of days, I'm afraid to say anything anymore. However, for the most part, I don't give advice, unless it's something I'm at least 99.99% sure about, but I guess I'll refrain from even doing that.....sorry, but I had to add my 2 sense and when it comes to my opinion, I think I'm 100% positive in how I feel.

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How about you tell me when I am allowed to give advice b/c after what's been going on here the past couple of days, I'm afraid to say anything anymore.

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Relax.....I dont' think anyone needs to tell you when to give advice. You seem like a person who knows when to speak and when to listen. This is about those people that don't. I wouldn't even consider it a real big problem, and although there has been some peculiar advice going around I see it is caught pretty quickly. I understand no one wants to be rude or start a squabble, so perhaps a mod could PM the ingoramus and kindly ask that person to STFU until they know what they're talking about?.....but who judges that? Freedom to post is very important to our community so I think we all just need to keep helping each other and let those that want to embarrass themselves by being corrected on thier bad advise right after giving it (politely, o'course) learn about when to speak and when to listen.

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Newbies should definately check out the "reputation" of the poster. If I ask a question, I look for the answerer's "rank" like lieutenant, moderator, etc.

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This does no good IMO....the ranks aren't relevant to an individual's experience level or their knowledge.....just how many posts they have.

i am very greatful for all of the advice i have recieved from the people willing to help.......that is why i started here. we have a friend that raised several different kinds of snakes.......i ask him, also, but i have always felt like i could come here anytime....i haven't posted as much lately, been very busy, but i really do appreciate the info from the forums.......i think you can kinda get a feel for everyone and "weed" out the Great and the not so great.....you kinda learn as you go.

anyway, thanks for having me and helping....

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Relax.....I dont' think anyone needs to tell you when to give advice. You seem like a person who knows when to speak and when to listen. This is about those people that don't.

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You are right, Steelsack. I do need to relax and I have. I kinda regret submitting that post, it was a reactive move on my part. I apologize if I came off hostile as that wasn't my intention. It's just that, being a noob, I guess I did get a little offended. If I had waited 5 minutes before clicking that submit button, I probably never would have. Hey, I'm not perfect you know!! :wink:

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i am very greatful for all of the advice i have recieved from the people willing to help.......that is why i started here. we have a friend that raised several different kinds of snakes.......i ask him, also, but i have always felt like i could come here anytime....i haven't posted as much lately, been very busy, but i really do appreciate the info from the forums.......i think you can kinda get a feel for everyone and "weed" out the Great and the not so great.....you kinda learn as you go.
anyway, thanks for having me and helping....

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Despite my 'little upset' at the 'little rant', I share rding's sentiments towards this community as a whole. I have increased my knowledge 10 fold b/c of all the great advice I've gotten here. Thanks again to everyone that has taken the time to answer my questions and give me sound advice. :)

Take a Ball Python Quiz! That would settle many issues on who can and who cannot give proper advice. Study the care sheets and get ur Ball Python Adivce giving license.

one of the main reasons i chose to remove myself from the staff is because i do not agree with the way some things are going around here. it seems as if a lot of people have forgotten how to act, and the site reminds me of... well... every other forum on the net.

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every other forum on the net.

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Well.......mabe not every. ;)

IMO, this is the best forum I have found, if not perfect, it's still the best. I'll occasionally search for and check out new ones or visit old ones that I used to participate in, but can't find what I find here. :smile:

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check out new ones

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*cough*TheCanopy*cough*

With all of the big forums out there for the breeder and the entrepreneur, I decided to come here because it was the friendliest for the first-time owner. Owning one snake isn't rocket science. Some of us want to give back what we have learned. Honestly, whats the worst advice you've seen? Its not like anyone is advocating super risky things. Nobody (that I have seen) is telling newbies to house adults in 10gal tanks or keep humidity at 25% or use heat rocks. In fact, it really irks me when I see someone get all snooty and flaming over trivial little things that can be debated to the moon and back. PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE! Think of all the abusive dog owners in the world, and then think about the dedication and interest that us newbies are showing towards an animal that most people would rather see dead. Also, think of the terrible advise that we have witnessed at most pet stores... now THATS scary!

If anyone has references to ****head posts, post it.

poo? I didn't say poo >:)

Oh boy. Interesting topic, but it makes me pretty sad that we even have to have this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Wizill

one of the main reasons i chose to remove myself from the staff is because i do not agree with the way some things are going around here. it seems as if a lot of people have forgotten how to act, and the site reminds me of... well... every other forum on the net.

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Wizill, I am really sorry to hear that, but I do see your point. But I still love this site and will continue to post here and visit daily. I hope you will too!

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Originally Posted by Wizill

Before I bought my snake, it had 2 hides, perfect temp and humidity... the works. what i'm getting at here is... there are 2 different kinds of "noobs"... the kind who are eager to learn how to care for a snake, bc they love reptiles... and the kind who think it makes them look cool. i do believe this site carries a lot of both types.

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Unfortunately, I was not as researched as you when I got my first ball python. I spent about a week on the internet before buying my ball (hadn't found this site yet) and was stupid enough to trust people at the pet store. I felt really lucky that I found this site and was able to learn the right way to do things. (I also read the ball python manual which helped.)

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Originally Posted by LouEvil

I'm not saying NObody should give advice......and I know you all will agree with me, there are some members here who just have no business telling other people how to care for their animals when they have little to no idea how to do so themselves.

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Yes, I agree. And if I recall correctly, when I was a newbie, I did not give any advice unless maybe it was something that I had already heard (umm i mean read) more experienced members say time and time again. I had such a hard time with my first ball python that I did not really feel comfortable giving advice until more recently when I had success with my second ball. Before that I spent most of my time asking questions. My point is that I knew then and I know now when I should give advice and when I should let more experienced people answer. Some people on this forum don't.

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Honestly, whats the worst advice you've seen? Its not like anyone is advocating super risky things.

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I've seen some whoppers.....like the "don't use tongs because you're a sissy" bit.....also that snakes "enjoy the hunt/thrill of the kill, so you should feed live prey"......just because YOU haven't seen it doesn't mean its not there.

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In fact, it really irks me when I see someone get all snooty and flaming over trivial little things that can be debated to the moon and back.

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Who is being snooty? If you think giving bad husbandry advice is trivial then perhaps you should find another hobby.

keeping happy and healthy animals is more of a trial and error process if you ask me. i'm not saying if it's your first snake it's going to die, but everyone that keeps snakes knows it doesn't always have to be done exactly by the book. i think people who i have experienced different species, housed many different ways, and kept many healthy herps should be the ones giving advice. not the people who got a bp and read a caresheet.

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i think people who i have experienced different species, housed many different ways, and kept many healthy herps should be the ones giving advice. not the people who got a bp and read a caresheet.

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I completely agree, Will. Too often people get arrogant or cocky about their level of knowledge and think they are all of a sudden a herp god bcause they've had one or 2 snakes for a few months and read a couple of caresheets. Anyone can regurgitate information from a caresheet or a book......thats not hard at all. IMO, when you think you know all there is to know, its time to find something else to do because knowing it all is not possible.

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Originally Posted by Wizill

i think people who i have experienced different species, housed many different ways, and kept many healthy herps should be the ones giving advice. not the people who got a bp and read a caresheet.

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Yikes you guys, I guess that counts me out. Ouch. :(

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Originally Posted by LouEvil

IMO, when you think you know all there is to know, its time to find something else to do because knowing it all is not possible.

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Well, I agree with you there. If I thought I knew everything about keeping herps, I wouldn't come here. My main reason for coming to this forum is to read the posts, continue learning about keeping ball pythons, and ask questions. However, if someone asks a question that I think I can help with, I'll usually give my input. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that.

i meant in general gen. you know what youre doing.

Okay, thanks, I feel better now. :)

One of the great things about an internet forum is the variety of people we attract. The downside to this is that you HAVE TO be careful about whose advice you follow. Would any of us go into PetSmart and shout out our question to the whole store, and then run with the first answer given by anyone? I hope not. IMO, that is what is happening if someone runs with the first answer given to a forum question. Each keeper is responsible for using their own common sense to judge the knowledge level of those giving them advice. This site, as many others, is a great resource, but there is no way to regulate who gives out advice. If you know that there is someone on here that will give you good advice, and you don't want to hear from anyone else, send them an email, or a PM, and save the site some bandwidth.
Personally, I like hearing different suggestions to the same problem, as it may give me ideas I hadn't thought of before. In addition, people giving bad advice typically draw attention to themselves, and can then be contacted privately, by those who know what tact is, and helped with whatever they are having issues with. Hopefully they are mature enough to listen to those with more experience, but if not, that is their choice.

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keeping happy and healthy animals is more of a trial and error process if you ask me. i'm not saying if it's your first snake it's going to die, but everyone that keeps snakes knows it doesn't always have to be done exactly by the book. i think people who i have experienced different species, housed many different ways, and kept many healthy herps should be the ones giving advice. not the people who got a bp and read a caresheet..

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To me, this statement contradicts itself. If we learn by trial and error, then why can't we share those trials and errors with each other? I do agree that "it doesn't always have to be done exactly by the book." The problem we run into is that when someone doesn't do it exactly by the book, and they share that information, they are jumped on, and told they shouldn't give advice/keep snakes. Many people buy snakes/reptiles as impulse buys. We will not change this. These people are typically the ones that get jumped on by the "Advice Gods" and made to feel embarassed/inferior, because they are doing it wrong.
N00bs that show up here asking for advice should be encouraged and directed to the answers. If they are giving what is commonly considered wrong advice, they should be tactfully informed of this. Most people can be reasoned with, if you try. Flame wars solve nothing.

This site does have more n00bs who are active posters than many other sites, because we go out of our way to make this a friendly atmosphere where they don't have to be afraid to ask their n00b questions. Those who are more experienced, who don't like to deal with n00bs are prowling the wrong site. There are plenty of other sites that cater to those with more experience, and don't tolerate n00b questions. Those are the places where n00b questions are answered with, "Do your research, don't ask us."

Where's Smynx, anyways? She's always insightful with these issues.......

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his site does have more n00bs who are active posters than many other sites, because we go out of our way to make this a friendly atmosphere where they don't have to be afraid to ask their n00b questions.

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This site has a high # of noob posters because Ball Pythons are one of, if not the most commonly puchased first snake.

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Originally Posted by RPlank

To me, this statement contradicts itself. If we learn by trial and error, then why can't we share those trials and errors with each other?

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you repeated what i said. how can you share trial and error if you haven't attempted any trials yet? if all you've done is bought a snake and read a crappy caresheet. read what i say if you're going to quote it, man.

So now that everyone has ranted and raved what do you suggest ???
Kicking off all the newbies that give somewhat questionable advice???
If you said yes I think that is the wrong answer.
You say that people cant sort thru and take the good with the bad advice
That someone giving bad advice can screw it up for someone seeking the correct answers.
First off there is always more than one way to skin a cat so thinking your ways are the right ways is really limiting yourself to learning new things.
My vet Dr Stahl is one of the foremost and leading herp vets in the US he raises bp's and green tree's yet some of the advice he gave me in caring for my bp was waay different from some of the advice some of the "so-called" more experienced herpers on here gave me. I sorted thru used common sense and made a plan for keeping my herp using what I learned from both
So far So good my bp seems to be doing great.
I guess what I am getting at is some people on here have an "I know more than you and it's my way the right way the only way" attitude which IMO is just as bad as a newbie giving bad advice.
As for doing all your research ie reading caresheets books etc wouldn't coming on here asking questions be considered research?
As for caresheets they are just as bad as some of the advice, you get a lot of different "right/wrong" as you look at the different ones on different sites and when you read those you need to sort thru so why sorting thru the good/bad post here any different.
Seems this whole little thing has started over one or two oldtimers on here not liking a couple of newbies on here for whatever reason.
This forum is wonderful and the people are great dont let one or two spoil it for us all.
If I listened and hung on every word some of the more exper knowledgeable herpers gave me I would think the only "right way" to keep a bp is in a Rubbermaid on newspaper, which aint true by a long shot. That is just a cheap way to do it and to quote some of those very people if you are worried about $ then maybe you should find another hobby. ( I don't think that and dont want to insult anyone who keeps there herp in a rubbermaid just making a point)
Look guys what attracted me to this site is the great friendly people and all the different ways you can do this.
Lets not lose sight of this :)

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Originally Posted by RPlank

N00bs that show up here asking for advice should be encouraged and directed to the answers. If they are giving what is commonly considered wrong advice, they should be tactfully informed of this. Most people can be reasoned with, if you try. Flame wars solve nothing.

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Well said, RPlank. I agree.

there's a difference between them showing up, and them taking over the forums.

every noob we speak of in this thread gets a snake, registers, asks a billion questions and then BAM... they are a freakin' expert.

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Originally Posted by QuenteK25

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Originally Posted by JLC

In the end, it's up to the person who asked the question in the first place to decide what makes the most sense.

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I have to disagree with that statement a bit. If someone is coming to the forum to get some advice then they obviously don't know what to do in the case of whatever they are asking about. If it is left up to them to decide "what makes the most sense" they may not choose what is right.

Example - It "makes the most sense" to feed live since that is what snakes eat in the wild. Yet that is a horrible idea. I believe all are entitled to give advice on what they feel qualified to do so. BUT when someone gives incorrect advice it SHOULD be pointed out as incorrect by a more qualified keeper so that the member asking the question doesn't choose the wrong advice by the simple idea that it is "what makes the most sense"

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I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. It IS completely up to each and every person who owns a snake to figure out how best to care for that snake. What are you (or David or anyone else) going to do? Are you going to go over to their house to make sure they follow your advice? Are you going to take their snakes away if they don't keep them in a manner to your liking?

No matter WHERE you look on the 'Net, or in books, or whatnot, you're going to find contradicting advice on how to keep any animal. You can't protect someone from bad advice...all you can do is offer your own advice and hope they see which makes the best sense. But the choice about what they do is theirs, not yours. Hopefully, someone intelligent enough to find such a site on the 'Net, and caring enough to ask the questions they need to, will be able to figure out what the best answers are and care enough to implement them for the good of their pet. But there's nothing YOU can do except offer your opinion to add to the mix of what they get to choose from.

And if that opinion is mixed with derision and flames and calling other people idiots...who do you think the "newb" is most likely to listen to??? Are they even going to bother to wade through the heated arguments to find out the best method to feed their snake? I wouldn't. I would go somewhere else.

If we can't have a discussion about husbandry techniques without it breaking down into a flame war...If we can't allow new people to post their views and opinions and then HELPFULLY teach them along the way...then we will be no different than every other herp forum I've found. And that will be a very sad day, indeed.

If you feel like the only people qualified to post advice are those with years of experience and many different snakes and other herps under their belt, then perhaps starting (and staying at) your own forum is the answer. You can make the rules in your own forum about who can post advice and who can do nothing but sit and read. But if you did that...how many people do you think would actually be reading all of your great advice?

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Originally Posted by JLC

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. It IS completely up to each and every person who owns a snake to figure out how best to care for that snake. What are you (or David or anyone else) going to do? Are you going to go over to their house to make sure they follow your advice? Are you going to take their snakes away if they don't keep them in a manner to your liking?

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if you live around me and you're keeping a snake in poor living conditions, and i know about it i'm coming over to either correct them or take your snake.

I'm not talking about someone who lives next door or down the street. I'm talking about everyone who comes to these forums looking for advice. And I really don't think you'd take my snake because I keep it in a glass enclosure rather than rubbermaid...or on some substrate other than newspaper...or if I feed it live instead of frozen...etc.

WOW.

I know we can all differentiate between FACTS and OPINIONS. I'd like to see an end to Ad Hominem attacks (don't resort to personal attacks because you feel there are innacuracies, or because someone corrected you). Most of my snakes poop weekly - I do not jump up and pronounce that the norm, the truth nor decry any information which contradicts it. Fiel under Observation. One of the things I like most about the site is that there were a LOT of observations folks feltt they could freely share - and folks like me could read all of these observations and synthesize them along with other information to reach my own conclusions when needed.

Sure - glaring innacuracies need to be corrected. I think there is nothing wrong with ANYONE trying to help out ANYONE else regardless of level of experience - the onus is on the more experienced folks and mods if necessary to correct/adjust the advice given when it deviates widely. There is not, nor should there be, some Heirarchy of Informational Authority dictating who should be paid more attention to - whose advice followed more closely - and there will not be a titular head throwing pearls of wisdom to swine. There are obviously personal politics abound here, and you KNOW if you are involved in them. IT ought to be easy enough to differentiate between attack and correction. In the end filling a post with piss'n'venom is a surefire way to get 80% to discount any point you are trying to get across - perceptually those kind of posts read as pure opinion, regarldless of the facts.

There are an astronomical sh**load of variables at work - absolutism isn't going to cut it.

Heh - sorry about this - i realize a thread that started in rant has now ended in babble :P


Has everyone vented enough? Can we go to recess now? I have to pee.

I think some people need to stop taking this discussion as a personal attack.....this is a general discussion and is NOT meant to be a flame war or anything like that. Saying things like

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This is just wrong

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are not conduscive to a civil discussion. Telling someone they are "just wrong" is insulting. Thats not what is trying to be accomplished here.

No joke Smulkin we have posted this string to death. At this point I dont care what the noobs post because i know what what i am doing. I say LET THEM POST what ever comment they want and we will deal with it as it comes. To suggest that people not post replies because they dont know anything is insane. There are lots of people in this world that dont know crap yet still dish it out. I hate what this has become. We went from a great community to a bickering community complaining about this and complaining about that, people need to do this people need to do that. I am sick of it. In actuality people dont NEED to do anything. People will do what they want. But to make a post saying that people who dont know much need not post. It almost sounds like we dont care about thier opinion. If people didnt post advice thats not 100% correct THEN HOW ARE WE GOING TO POINT THEM IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. It was posted before that people dont need to take our advice if they dont want to. And if thats the case too bad for them, some people just have to learn the hard way.

Every one here is afraid to name names. But it was Maniac that said to feed with your hands. But since this i have not seen him around too much and this SUX he was really turning around and was going on to be a great herper and i am sure he will be a great herper. All this is doing is discourging the new guys from keeping herps and discourging them from coming to this community.

Listen to us "should noobs post advice" I say yes go for it why the hell not. What would happen if we all just stopped giving advice. Lets just say hypetheticly that from this day forward when someone asked a question no one posted a reply. Not even a hello or a how you doing, but nothing. Its the equivelent to dead air if you dont hear anything then you are going to change the channel. I dont want that to happen. What do people think when the come to the site and see freakin 46 posts about how noobs need not post here. To me thats chasing them away with a stick.

I am sorry for the long winded post but i sat back a little just to watch what was going to happen and i just couldnt take it anymore.

Damien....I really think you should re-read this thread because it sounds like you have the message(s) all mixed up. Where did anyone say noobs should'nt POST? Posting and giving advice are not one and the same.

I'm certainly NOT afraid to name names, I just haven't done so out of courtesy and not wanting to start a flame war. Maniac only "turned around" after he was threatened with being banned.....this of course was after he verbally accosted this site, its members, and *physically threatened* myself. But thats neither here nor there.

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I am sorry for the long winded post but i sat back a little just to watch what was going to happen and i just couldnt take it anymore.

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Well, I suppose I should apologize for being a concerned member of the community. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything....maybe you, Damien would be happier with the crap that has become more prevalent on the forums to become the norm....your standards may be low, but mine aren't when it concerns the care of the animals.