Skinny rats? Also a genetics question.

I've decided to try my hand at breeding my own feeders however the two males that I got seem to be a little thin? I'm not really certain of how their weight should really feel/look like and they appear otherwise healthy, they're round on the tummy and don't look sick, but I can easily feel their spines and hip bones when I hold them and their leg muscles also feel a bit... I don't know, I guess I would describe it as stringy. Stringier than I think they should be.

Here's some pictures. They do look healthy, right?
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8242/8...80710d10_z.jpg
Sorry about the blurriness, the first fellow is super flighty.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8248/8...7b04b45c_z.jpg


Also, I'm wondering what the recipe is for making mostly solid coloured rats. I have a snake who only takes solid blacks/browns and I would like to get my breeders to accommodate that as much as possible.

Thanks!

They look a little on the light side, but over all, based on pictures alone, don't look too bad. You should not be able to easily feel backs or hips though. What kind of diet are they on?

As for how to breed solid colored black or brown (agouti I assume?) rats... That shouldn't be too difficult. Select the rats with the least amount of white and breed those. Also select black and/or agouti rats and breed only those. Eliminate animals with a lot of white or who are not black or agouti. Since all other colors are recessive, it is just a matter of avoiding those colors in the breeding line. You COULD still end up with other colored rats if the parents are carrier (het), but simply don't breed those animals for future litters.

They look alright.
The second male looks better though.
How old are they?

Adult males will feel solid. Much more muscled and solid compared to females. When you hold them, they will feel hard and stiff since they're so muscled.
They range between 350-500+ grams.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

They look a little on the light side, but over all, based on pictures alone, don't look too bad. You should not be able to easily feel backs or hips though. What kind of diet are they on?

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I've been feeding them on a mix of left over cereal (Kashi brand and Cheerios), unsalted sunflower seeds and peanuts, raisins, dry pasta, dried coconut, some left over catfood (Iams indoor formula), mixed with Alfalfa pellets. They also get apple cores with the seeds removed.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

They look alright.
The second male looks better though.
How old are they?

Adult males will feel solid. Much more muscled and solid compared to females. When you hold them, they will feel hard and stiff since they're so muscled.
They range between 350-500+ grams.

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I'm not entirely certain on age but probably just coming out of their juvenile phase so I would assume in that 5-7 month range? Somewhere in that ballpark. They definitely don't feel super solid though and I just weighed them and the first one is 235g, the second 260g.

I don't think rats can process alfalfa?

I would definitely invest in some rat formulated food or lab blocks.
A lot of the stuff you're feeding isn't that healthy. It's kind of the equivalent of feeding a child candy and junk food.

Mazuri and Harlan are good brands to look for.

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Originally Posted by MisterKyte

I've been feeding them on a mix of left over cereal (Kashi brand and Cheerios), unsalted sunflower seeds and peanuts, raisins, dry pasta, dried coconut, some left over catfood (Iams indoor formula), mixed with Alfalfa pellets. They also get apple cores with the seeds removed.



I'm not entirely certain on age but probably just coming out of their juvenile phase so I would assume in that 5-7 month range? Somewhere in that ballpark. They definitely don't feel super solid though and I just weighed them and the first one is 235g, the second 260g.

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I would go ahead and cut the alfalfa out of their diet. As another reply stated, rats don’t process alfalfa very well. The rest of the diet doesn’t look too bad, though they may need more vitamins that can be achieved by offering fresh produce. Watch the sugar/carb intake, because this can lead to obesity rather than good muscle development. Most vegetables are good, especially dark leafy greens (i.e. spinach, kale), broccoli, and colorful veggies like squash, carrots, bell peppers, and cooked sweet potatoes. Avoid onion, corn (they can eat corn, but it isn’t very nutritious, mostly just filler), uncooked potatoes, cabbage, and iceburg lettuce. They can have fruit in moderation too. Colors are again good: red and purple grapes, berries, bananas, etc. Avoid citrus fruits. You don’t have to go crazy offering the produce, unless you want to, but just a little might be the little extra oomph they need to get some better weight and muscle development. Whole grains are good, seeds and nuts can be offered in limited quantity, and animal protein (i.e. cooked eggs, meat, especially poultry) in moderation is good too. I personally feel cat food is best not fed to rats, though others may disagree.

I've actually never heard that before and just did some research into it. Found this article that suggests that Alfalfa is actually digestible and healthy for rats.
It's only one article though so I'll probably do some more digging.

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Originally Posted by MisterKyte

I've actually never heard that before and just did some research into it. Found this article that suggests that Alfalfa is actually digestible and healthy for rats.
It's only one article though so I'll probably do some more digging.

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It may be true, to an extent. There are different forms in which alfalfa can be fed, and those forms are not equal. Alfalfa pellets are very different from the alfalfa plant, and have been processed, some nutrients removed in processing, and added back in to replace those lost. These pellets are not going to benefit a rat the same way as fresh alfalfa, or other less-processed version might. It may be incorrect to say "alfalfa" in general cannot be processed, but alfalfa pellets in general are not very beneficial to the rat. Some rats will outright refuse them too.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I would definitely invest in some rat formulated food or lab blocks.
A lot of the stuff you're feeding isn't that healthy. It's kind of the equivalent of feeding a child candy and junk food.

Mazuri and Harlan are good brands to look for.

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Hmmn, I was actually hoping I might be able to avoid the lab blocks since I don't have a whole lot of extra money to put into rat food unless my new job comes through early. :u

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Originally Posted by sorraia

It may be true, to an extent. There are different forms in which alfalfa can be fed, and those forms are not equal. Alfalfa pellets are very different from the alfalfa plant, and have been processed, some nutrients removed in processing, and added back in to replace those lost. These pellets are not going to benefit a rat the same way as fresh alfalfa, or other less-processed version might. It may be incorrect to say "alfalfa" in general cannot be processed, but alfalfa pellets in general are not very beneficial to the rat. Some rats will outright refuse them too.

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Yeah, I figure as much when it comes to the pellets.
I may end up culling these two and trying this again in a few months when I have a better plan and some more money to invest in them. I wasn't thinking much in terms of diet when I decided to try to start a breeding colony but I guess it's a good idea to get together a better game plan.

You definitely need to have money available when trying to start a breeding colony. Breeders and babies consume a lot of food, and if you don't provide a good diet, they are not going to produce as well for you, and you'll just end up with unhealthy rats that cost you more money in the long term. To give you an idea of cost, it has cost me about $180 to set up my colony of 16 females and 3 males, and that's not including the price of building the rack. I've been breeding since November, and they've only just recently paid off the initial set-up by selling my extras to a friend. The rack isn't paid off yet, but I expect it to be within another month.