What are they? Colour help please!

I've recently got back into breeding rats, mostly as feeders, but I also like to play around with colours to see what I can get. I sometimes sell the prettier ones as pets, and I like to be able to tell the new owners what colour their new buddy or buddies are.

For the most part, different variations of blues and tans are all I get aside from the black Berkshires and hoodeds. HOWEVER! I recently had a funky looking bub pop up that I've no idea what to call him! I've posted pictures of him next to his black and white bareback brother. It may be a little hard to tell, but he's a lot siamese-type looking, mostly white with a darker butt, and as he is aging, his nose seems to maybe be darkening? I really appreciate how his brother decided to pee on his back right before this photoshoot; I dried him off best I could. O_o

He is 4 weeks old, mother is a black berkshire, daddy is a dumbo blue agouti variegated? (The 4th/5th picture is of dad)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC02992.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC02995.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC02994.jpg

Here is the daddy, Bhutta. I don't know how old he is, but he seems some kind of blue agouti to me, with some browning out on his rump.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03007.jpg

Also, last question, for now at least! I also have these 3, a brother and 2 sisters. Mom is a black and white hooded, dad is unknown as she came to me pregnant. I think they are all a variation of blue, but I'm not sure what exactly? The darkest one is about the same shade as Bhutta (but I know for certain he's not dad), the second is gray blue, and the hooded is a very very light shade of blue. I know it's hard to tell from a picture, but does each colour have a certain name?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03000.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03003.jpg

Dad is a brown/mink hooded, just bad example of pattern. Agouti is a color phase so you can't have a blue agouti. It is the normal color.

One baby is a brown/mink self, one looks like a blue self, last light one looks like a champagne hooded with a bad pattern like dad.

I'm not sure on colors as its been awhile since I bred rats. Compare to some of my old pics @ freewebs.com/ocrattery

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Dad is possibly an agouti hooded.

The Siamese one might be so, but we need better pics of the face.

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Um...what? My knowledge is not THAT limited that I don't know what brown agouti is. Agouti is not a colour by itself, that just refers to whether the individual hair is striped or not. I get enough of the normal "wild-type" that I know that's not what these darker ones are. The pictures unfortunately show them browner than they are, but they are definitely blue of some sort.

Variegated is a certain pattern, not just "bad Hooded pattern".

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I typically use these two pages to help me identify colours:

http://www.afrma.org/fancyrm.htm

http://www.camarattery.com/colors-markings

None of the rats are agouti or blues.


Picture 1/2/3: Siamese, Black Bareback
Picture 4/5: Mink Variegated (not hooded)
Picture 6/7: Minks(the darker one that is hiding might be chocolate) and Triple dilute

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Originally Posted by DeathByDabs

Dad is a brown/mink hooded, just bad example of pattern. Agouti is a color phase so you can't have a blue agouti.

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You can have blue agouti. (http://www.spoiledratten.com/_uimage...agouti0404.jpg)

And the "bad pattern" is known as Variegated. It's not hooded.

Could it be a Himalayan instead of a Siamese? The pattern sure is light, but may look darker in person.

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Originally Posted by aldebono

Could it be a Himalayan instead of a Siamese? The pattern sure is light, but may look darker in person.

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Could be. This is true.

I was going by the coat color and comparing it to the white coat of the bareback rat.
Himis are mainly white(from the albino gene), where siamese are cream.

But its just possible the points haven't developed yet. They still look very young. Mine tend to do their first change at 2+ months. And again a few months later.
Or just poor quality siamese.
But then again the ears are light. Mine tend to have the dark ears(like siamese cats).

Hmmmmm

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeathByDabs

Agouti is a color phase so you can't have a blue agouti. It is the normal color.

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Sorry but that's wrong, blue agouti is an easy combo to hit, we've made many hundreds of them over the years.
Agouti is the color of a wild rat add recessive blue and you've got a blue agouti.

2 blue agouti with blue, they have a nice orangish blue tint as babies
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/a...agoutiblue.jpg

Agouti, blue and blue agouti
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/PICT3960.jpg

agouti, 2 blue agouti and a blue
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/PICT8672.jpg

Too early in my day to guess on the OP's ratty's, just had to make this correction :P

Thanks for your inputs! I'm going to have to try to take better pictures that show the colour better. :( I'll see if I can throw everyone in a box with some of the common ones (albino, black, agouti) and take them out into the sunlight! :) In real life, those "blues" look exactly the same colour as snakesRkewl's pictures. The darkest one started off looking just like the blue agotui, with that orangeish blue cast, the middle one looks like the one just called blue. Looking at lots of pics online now that I have the "triple dilute" phrase to look for, I think that's exactly what that third one is.

On the Himi/Siamese male, he's only 4 weeks old. He's mostly white, the same colour as his brother, and then about halfway down his back, he starts darkening. You can easily see the colour stop halfway down his tail. I think his nose MIGHT have a little colour on it, but it's really hard to tell. His ears are still light, then same as his albino brothers. He does seem to be darkening more the older he gets. He was probably 2 weeks old before I could even tell there was a difference between him and the albinos, which is good because that was the first cull to the freezer! I saw he was different and held him back, so now he'll grow up to be a daddy.

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Originally Posted by Sita

Thanks for your inputs! I'm going to have to try to take better pictures that show the colour better. :( I'll see if I can throw everyone in a box with some of the common ones (albino, black, agouti) and take them out into the sunlight! :) In real life, those "blues" look exactly the same colour as snakesRkewl's pictures. The darkest one started off looking just like the blue agotui, with that orangeish blue cast, the middle one looks like the one just called blue. Looking at lots of pics online now that I have the "triple dilute" phrase to look for, I think that's exactly what that third one is.

On the Himi/Siamese male, he's only 4 weeks old. He's mostly white, the same colour as his brother, and then about halfway down his back, he starts darkening. You can easily see the colour stop halfway down his tail. I think his nose MIGHT have a little colour on it, but it's really hard to tell. His ears are still light, then same as his albino brothers. He does seem to be darkening more the older he gets. He was probably 2 weeks old before I could even tell there was a difference between him and the albinos, which is good because that was the first cull to the freezer! I saw he was different and held him back, so now he'll grow up to be a daddy.

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Yeah. Some more pics of those two 'blues' will help. The adult and one of the babies looks mink on my screen.

And since the himi/siamese has an albino siblings, I'm more inclined to say he's a himi. Himalayans are half siamese and half albino.

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So what would that means the parents are if she got a Himi and albino? How could she prove out the himi? With Siamese? Someone has to be het Siamese in there.

Sorry, not really up to date on the Himi genetics. It's one copy of Siamese and one copy of Albino, so could that mean one parent is het Siamese and the other is not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sita

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC02992.jpg

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Looks like a Himalayan, or very very poor quality Siamese.

Quote:

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03007.jpg

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Looks mink.

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03000.jpg

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Two mink, the lighter one looks like beige, or possibly a beige combined with another color (maybe mink, since it has mink littermates).

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Originally Posted by aldebono

So what would that means the parents are if she got a Himi and albino? How could she prove out the himi? With Siamese? Someone has to be het Siamese in there.

Sorry, not really up to date on the Himi genetics. It's one copy of Siamese and one copy of Albino, so could that mean one parent is het Siamese and the other is not?

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Edit:
Just re-read your first post. So you know who the parents are to the litter with the weird baby, and both are colored, right?
That being the case, it isn't genetically possible to get both albino and Himalayan (or even Siamese) in the same litter. If both parents are colored, you CAN get albino OR Siamese OR Himalayan, but you can't get both or all three in the same litter.

That being said, if both parents are indeed colored, I would say one carries Siamese, one carries albino, and all the "albino" babies are in fact Himalayans who have not yet started changing color, and this one baby is also Himalayan. Since they have white markings, that's going to screw up the color too, because they'll be missing some of their points.


original:
In order to get both albino and Himalayan in the same litter from a colored mom, mom has to carry albino and the dad has to be Himalayan OR there are multiple dads to this litter.

Mom = C/c
Dad = ch/c

Result: C/c (colored carrying albino), C/ch (colored carrying Siamese), ch/c (Himalayan), c/c (albino)

If there are multiple dads to this litter, that creates multiple possibilities to account for this litter.

The dad is the dumbo in the pictures, and mom is a black berkshire. There is absolutely no possibility of multiple dads. The longer I think about it, the more I think I might have been mistaken about this specific litter having albinos also. I remember it being mostly black berks, with a few black hooded/barebacks, and this guy. For whatever reason, I didn't write down exactly what she had this time, but I know that mom must carry albino, since she's had albinos before (from a different dad), and I'm positive those ones were regular albino.

So mom must be C/c, and dad is C/ch? Which would indeed make the boy Himalayan (ch/c)? Makes me wish this boy was a girl so I could cross back to dad! :)

Wow it's a pain to try to take pics of a bunch at once! :D These are my best efforts. It's frustrating because one lighting will make a certain colour look more true than a different lighting. The 4th one shows the blue one the best (leftmost rat), since it's got the most natural light, but super blurry. I tried to adjust the colour on the pics to match it closer to real life. Here's the rundown on who's in the pictures:

1: Mom - black berkshire
2: black and white bareback
3: blue
4: himalayan
5: albino
6: blue agouti
7: triple dilute hooded
8: chocolate/cocoa

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03028.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03025.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03024.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03020.jpg

What's the deal with mink? I don't really understand that colour at all, since all the pics I see online just look like a brown rat, but not as rich as the cocoa/chocolate ones. Can you get blue and mink in the same litter?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sita

Wow it's a pain to try to take pics of a bunch at once! :D These are my best efforts. It's frustrating because one lighting will make a certain colour look more true than a different lighting. The 4th one shows the blue one the best (leftmost rat), since it's got the most natural light, but super blurry. I tried to adjust the colour on the pics to match it closer to real life. Here's the rundown on who's in the pictures:

1: Mom - black berkshire
2: black and white bareback
3: blue
4: himalayan
5: albino
6: blue agouti
7: triple dilute hooded
8: chocolate/cocoa


What's the deal with mink? I don't really understand that colour at all, since all the pics I see online just look like a brown rat, but not as rich as the cocoa/chocolate ones. Can you get blue and mink in the same litter?

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3 kind of looks like a Russian Blue in the first picture. But a mink in the second.
I still think 6 is a mink.

Minks have a purple-ish brown coloration.

You can get blue and mink in the same litter.

Here's one of my blue/mink/lilac litters:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...64407332_o.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...s/DSC_0587.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...DSC_0689-1.jpg

[QUOTE=Sita;2017732]
As far as triple dilutes go, I believe they are white rats.

The white one is a silver which is a diluted blue, adding the other dilutes makes the rat even whiter I think :confusd:
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/a...PICT3338-1.jpg

Triple Dilutes can be off-white.
They're not pure white as you can see in the color difference in the OPs rat's markings.
The markings are visible. It's very pale, but still visible.

I have a breeder male and female triple dilute. They're difficult to photograph.
They look like PEWs in photos, but in real life, you can see that they're off-white. Kind of a really washed out sandy color. It's easier to identify if they have a pattern like hooded or variegated. Or if they're next to a true white animal.


According to Fancy Rat

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Triple Dilute

Description:
A Triple Dilute is the expression of three or more recessive genes on a single rat, thus the name. In appearance, they closely resemble a Pink-Eyed White rat, with very pale hair and pink eyes. However, there may be occasional colored hairs, heathering, pale ticking, yellowing, "shadow" markings, or other irregularities with the pristine whiteness of the rat, as it is not a true albino.

Genetics:
A/- or a/a plus at least 3 other double recessive color genes.

A Triple Dilute is not a distinct and pre-determined genetic combination, and no one truly breeds "for" them. They are usually the consequence of breeding too many recessives in a single bloodline and overdiversifying. Because it is the result of recessive genes washing out the color in the hair rather than albinism truly masking it, they are often not as cleanly white as a true PEW.

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^^^ good info :gj:

3 looks Russian blue to me and 6 looks mink.

When I bred rats, mink was one of the colors I specialized in. It is high variable, from light to dark, rich to dull, grayish to bluish to purplish. Most mink from US lines will have dark ruby eyes (sometimes looks black), while most mink from UK lines will have black eyes. True chocolate is far less common than mink, but seems to be increasing in number recently. It seems true chocolate almost became extinct in the US, but has re-appeared with the importation of Burmese and BES from the UK. I had true chocolates while I was breeding rats. True chocolate is far less variable in color, a warm, rich color similar to that of a dark chocolate candy bar, and they always have black eyes.

Mink and blue are different genes on different loci, and you can certainly get both in the same litter, and even combine the genes. In fact most genes can be produced in the same litter. Albino, Himalayan, and Siamese are on the same locus, so getting those get a little trickier, depending on what the parents are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sita

Wow it's a pain to try to take pics of a bunch at once! :D These are my best efforts. It's frustrating because one lighting will make a certain colour look more true than a different lighting. The 4th one shows the blue one the best (leftmost rat), since it's got the most natural light, but super blurry. I tried to adjust the colour on the pics to match it closer to real life. Here's the rundown on who's in the pictures:

1: Mom - black berkshire
2: black and white bareback
3: blue
4: himalayan
5: albino
6: blue agouti
7: triple dilute hooded
8: chocolate/cocoa

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03028.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03025.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03024.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03020.jpg

What's the deal with mink? I don't really understand that colour at all, since all the pics I see online just look like a brown rat, but not as rich as the cocoa/chocolate ones. Can you get blue and mink in the same litter?

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I finally took some time to really examine that darker "blue", and I think you guys are right about the mink. The individual hairs seem to all be one colour so that throws out the blue agouti, right?

Also, I'm really excited to see what develops in the latest litter that just dropped. Koyla is the daughter of this black berkshire mom, and her litter is fathered by the same dad (yes, her own father). So far, they mostly look like more black berks, but there are 3 light coloured ones. This is her first litter, so I don't know what she carries. But correct me if I'm wrong here: If Dad is C/ch, and Mom is C/c, Koyla could be C/ch or C/c, since she's black, but NOT C/C because she made light babies. And now that I mated her back with dad, these light babies are going to be EITHER ch/c (Himi) or ch/ch (Siamese)? Assuming there's not some other random gene in there to mix it up...:)

The dad looks like a grey agouti to me. like verigated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sita

I finally took some time to really examine that darker "blue", and I think you guys are right about the mink. The individual hairs seem to all be one colour so that throws out the blue agouti, right?

Also, I'm really excited to see what develops in the latest litter that just dropped. Koyla is the daughter of this black berkshire mom, and her litter is fathered by the same dad (yes, her own father). So far, they mostly look like more black berks, but there are 3 light coloured ones. This is her first litter, so I don't know what she carries. But correct me if I'm wrong here: If Dad is C/ch, and Mom is C/c, Koyla could be C/ch or C/c, since she's black, but NOT C/C because she made light babies. And now that I mated her back with dad, these light babies are going to be EITHER ch/c (Himi) or ch/ch (Siamese)? Assuming there's not some other random gene in there to mix it up...:)

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Depends on what the light colored babies are. If there's beige some where in the family (even several generations back), those light-colored babies could be beige instead of Siamese or Himalayan. Before their eyes open you can actually see what color the eyes will be, because the eyelids are slightly transparent. Himi/Siamese will be pink-eyed, while beige will have red/ruby eyes. It is easy to tell pink or red/ruby eyes from black eyes, but it takes a little more practice to tell pink from red/ruby. It's been so long since I've done it I couldn't accurately describe to you what to look for now. :(

Once their fur starts coming in (or is it already?), if they are all whitish/creamish, then they are probably Himalayan or Siamese. If they are instead beige/cream (sometimes beige and a good dark Siamese will resemble each other as babies, except Siamese will have darker shading toward their rump and tail, and REALLY good Siamese will already have light points when they first start getting fur) then you will know both Koyla and her father/sire of this litter carry beige (a recessive separate from the albino/Siamese complex). If you have markings, that's going to complicate things though, since those markings will cover up some of the traits you'll want to look for in Himi/Siamese.

If you follow the rule of simplicity (the simplest answer is the best and most likely), then you probably have Himi or Siamese in the litter. I personally gave up that rule a LONG time ago when my rats started throwing some pretty funky combinations. ;)
I had one rat, a black, who ended up proving she carried nearly every recessive gene possible.... Talk about a head ache! lol

The little bubs are a week old, so fur is coming in, but it's not a full coat yet. Here's a couple pics, one with flash and one without. The best I can tell right now is maybe their rumps are a little darker, but since their fur is still thin, it's definitely not certain. We'll see how it goes. :) I put them next to a black and white sibling for comparison.

No idea on the lineage of beige on these guys. I'm pretty sure on mom's side there isn't much chance of beige, as she came from a friend of mine who breeds rats and used to be my supplier, and I've never gotten a beige from him. Bhutta on the other hand came from Craigslist, so who knows on him.

The other really cool thing about this litter is that I held back Koyla to breed because she is almost full black, with only a few white toes and no white on the belly, and most of the non-hooded pups are nearly all black. I was happy to see the patterning carry though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03034.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/DSC03033.jpg

I would say those look like colorpoint instead of beige. :)

I can't tell for sure just yet because their fur is so thin, but I'm leaning in the direction of Siamese. It really does look like they have shading going down their rumps to their tails.

They might be missing the points on their feet, because of white markings, but if the black and white sibling is the extent of markings you have, they should at least have the points on their tail, ears, and nose.