Noob breeder looking for some advice

Ok, so you all don't immediately jump me, I have been keeping reptiles for almost 20 years, yes I have time and money to blow on this, have given it tons of thought, and reasearch, more thought more reasearch, more reasearch(you get the idea). I'm not looking to get rich or even break even, just want the experience and to breed toward some cool morphs that would take me forever to afford. And yes I don't mind waiting a few years to get them. Now on to the immediate issues at hand.

First thing is that i have reached a caging dilemma. In short I'm outta room, and at the last show I attended two different people had some nice ARS 7030 racks for sale, one for 1800 and two for 1500. One of those people also had a 7010 available for 750. First thing i need to know is if this is a good price on any of these for used.

Second, unless i get a bunch of adults somewhere, I will not start breeding until next season, and only on a limited basis then. I,m kinda wondering if getting one of these racks is overkill for someone just starting out, as that money could be used to get more of the base morphs for the things I want to make. Just thinking I might be better off building my own racks like I was going to before spotting these, thus leaving more cash for future breeding stock.

Anyway, just looking for some opinions, and wondering if there are any obvious flaws in my current plans. Thanks for any input. Shawn H.

Hey Shawn,

It's nice to hear that you've done your research, and it definitely sounds like you have a plan. Unfortunately I can't comment on the racks that you listed;however, I can say that I built my own rack out of melamine and some heat tape and it has been phenomenal! I was able to do the rack with a Herpstat 1 for right about $250. Ya, it's not the PVC, but personally I think I built it pretty well and it is a 6 slot 41 qt rack and serves the puprose for me. Just like you are thinking, it allowed me to spend some extra money on the snakes I loved!

As for the snakes, you could always look for sub-adults that could potentially be ready for next year. Or just grab a few proven breeder normals to test your system out and have some fun! If you decided to grab some normals, you can grab a nice 2 or 3 gene male and still produce some quality stuff. Personally I think it's the way to start out, especially if your under a budget. You can pick up proven normal femals for anywhere between $150 and $300, just depends on size. I've also seen proven Pastels for about $500-$700 if you wanted to get one of those too. Either way its a great way to get started and have some fun a little earlier. But the sooner you start, the sooner you have to start preparing for babies :D. Anyways I hope this was helpful. Good luck, keep us posted and HAVE FUN!!

Calder

PS - either youtube some melamine racks or look in the DIY section and you can see lots of people who have built their own.

I also can't comment on the prices for those racks, but I too made my own. All materials for the rack an the heat tape and thermostat (a VE-300X, might be wrong on the number, working off memory, but it is the "upgraded" 300) came out to about $400. I have 7 slots that can fit 2 tubs side by side, so a total of 14 tubs can fit. Currently only have 6 snakes, so only 3 slots filled.

I may or may not breed in the future, all of my snakes are babies. I did get snakes that would work toward my goal if I did decide to breed them down the line. For now I'm just enjoying them for what they are, watching them grow up, and learning all I can about the genetics behind different morphs, as well as what it takes to breed them. I probably wouldn't be able to breed anything until next year.

Just was looking at that rack online, 30 tub rack with t-stat, heat panels and power strip are running about $2500 dollars direct from the manufacturer. So as long as they are in good shape and include the t-stat etc, I would say that is not a bad deal. However, I would consider this rack system more for a larger scale breeder than hobby breeder. If you are not planning on a huge collection, making your own rack or looking at some of the other rack systems out there (Animal Plastics, Vision, boaphileplastics, Reptile Basics) before committing to this one may be a better alternative. It all comes down to what your looking to do. Welcome to the sight!

Thanks for the responses and the warm welcome. I actually joined the site a couple months or so ago, just been soaking up info since then. Calder, your post is basically what my original plan was anyway, both with the racks and the snakes. Main reason this came up was that I will have more to spend out of my tax return than I expected, but it may not matter in the end as the big racks may well have sold before I get the cash in hand. I'm leaning strongly toward going back to my original plan anyway as I think I would be better off getting some quality animals going and worry about the fancy caging later. Already have 2 designs worked out, one was a melamine rack, another is a setup with the heavy-duty wire shelving. Advantage there is quick build and low cost while giving me an 8 slot rack with a little extra storage space. Downside is no heat retention so has to stay in a warm room, which I do have.

Sorraia, what materials did you use for your rack? Just wondering if you've had any issues with the shelves sagging or if you have center supports between the tubs.

Greg, not sure how you define huge collection, but I already have 8 balls, 3 red tailed boas, 4 corns, a blood, and that doesn't even cover my legged friends. Planning on eventually having more than 20 ball pythons I think. The final number will depend on a lot like whether I get a bunch of normal females and some multi-gene males or I may get fewer females and make them morphs and go straight for the supers( like the super cinnamon I want). Most of the people I know already think I'm insane for having the 16 snakes in the house, can't wait to hear them when that number starts getting close to forty:D. The wife recently gave me the green light to start planning the boa project as well, but any serious things with those are a couple years away. Sorry, I tend to ramble, lol. In short not only do I already have some racks, more are definitely in my future. Just trying to make the best overall decision to help me grow this project on a very limited budget.

Again, thanks for the input. I'm going to make a separate thread in a few days or so to discuss what I have and get some suggestions on what I should maybe get. Just waiting for my little Cinnamon male to come out of shed and get some fresh pics of everyone.

For space-savings a rack system is the only way to go, especially for ball pythons. I live in a one bedroom apartment, and had run out of room for glass tanks, so I had figure out a way to compress it down. A rack system was the obvious answer. I started looking around, got lucky and found a used Vision rack with a couple missing tubs and a couple broken, (also got three of the BP's I now have in the deal). However, replacement tubs are inexpensive and the rack came with heat cables and a Herpstat. I now have a total of 16 tubs, (eight V-70, four V-35, and four baby tubs), all in one rack in a corner of the room, (as opposed to tanks occupying every flat surface in the house). I currently have 5 BP's and 7 leopard geckos in that one rack, and still have 3 of the larger V-70 tubs, and one of the V-35's empty, (as well as the 4 baby tubs.....so far). The entire rack takes up less than a 36"D x 24"W x 80"H area in one corner, (see photo below), and I really wonder how I ever lived without it! I especially love the Herpstat, because like you I was "old school" in my husbandry, and used rheostats and various other methods to control heat, (been in herping since the 60's but was away for awhile). One week using the Herpstat was all it took....how did I ever live without it??
I think the Vision rack system is pretty reasonably priced compared to others, and due to my personal experience with it I can highly recommend it, (http://visionproducts.us/vp12wp/). (And yes I know there are other worthy rack systems out there, but I like what I got!). Once set up and adjusted, all I have to do is feed and clean...heaven!! Taking care of them is much more efficient, and easier to clean/sanitize than it was when I had them scattered all around in different tanks, and that's better for the animals and me both!

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps2553b272.jpg


If you intend on breeding, I would advise get your caging situated first, then slowly build up your collection. Don't dump all your money on expensive morphs before you get the husbandry end figured out, (IMHO). I can guarantee you this though, once you get a rack system you'll be glad you did, and you will become obsessed with filling it up, (at least that's what happened to me...I'm already contemplating rack #2.....It's called HAP.......Herp Acquisition Disease!).

S

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Originally Posted by Darkbird

Sorraia, what materials did you use for your rack? Just wondering if you've had any issues with the shelves sagging or if you have center supports between the tubs.

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I used melamine, 5/8" thick (had a choice between that or 3/4", chose the 5/8" because it was cheaper, and not quite as heavy). Bottom shelf is lived with a kick plate so the bottom tub(s) aren't totally on the floor. One side is not quite as deep as the other to allow cords to be placed through the back instead of showing in front. The back of the rack is plywood to make it a tad lighter, but even so it is a HEAVY son of a gun... We put furniture movers on the bottom to make it a little easier to move into place, and in the (hopefully never) off-chance we'd have to move it another time. I put a little channel in the back of the shelf to recess the thermostat probe, attached the heat tape to the shelves, and placed window shims over the heat tape so the tubs wouldn't rub on it. The shelves are attached both to the sides and the back panel. So far so good! No problems with sagging, and heat and humidity has right on target.

DIY way cheaper.

The ARS racks are very nice, and the prices you quoted seem decent (assuming they come with all of the tubs and t-stat), but they are geared toward the big league breeders. That said, if you're fairly certain about the numbers you're thinking of (20-ish) it may not be a bad idea. There comes a point where you have to balance your DIY skill level against the value of your time spent elsewhere. If you're a skilled builder and it's going to take you 4 hours to build your own, then go for it. This kind of project would take me days, and I wouldn't be surprised if I glued or nailed my hand to the rack, so I would just buy the ARS rack because it's cheaper than going to the hospital to stitch up a nail hole.

Here's a photo if you are curious. It is a beast, but I'm happy with the result. Not all the tubs had snakes, and not all the shelves have tubs, so you can see how the heat tape is set up too. My husband and I are amateur builders. It did take us days to build, but that's because we didn't really sit down and work on it straight through, just kind of tinkered around a little here and a little there. I'm happy with the results. We are planning to keep our numbers low too.

Oh, and the thermometers on each tub have been altered so they have 3 wired probes (two for temp and 1 for humidity). That way I could keep the actual unit outside of the tub and make a quick check of temperatures without having to open every bin. I don't know if having a thermometer on every tub is considered over kill or not, but I prefer it that way, just in case there are differences (i.e. parts of the heat tape fail, differences between shelves, etc).

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...psf784b630.jpg

I made my first rack out of melamine, but it was a disaster from the start, that stuff is HEAVY!

The ones we have now are made of 1 X 4 boards, with some water resistant shower board as the face boards. My husband made the frame from 1 X 4's, used 2 X 2's for the shelf supports, and the shelves themselves are 1 X 4. They are very light weight, immensely strong, and fairly cheap. Our three cost roughly $60 each to build. One is our main rack, it holds a total of 18 tubs of various sizes, most of which have lids. The breeding female rack, which houses my biggest females. And a smaller rack for my husbands newly started breeding colony of 5.

I can get some pictures up if you are interested.

Gale

Well, still haven't made up my mind. Appreciate all the input anyway, and thanks for the shot of your setup Sorraia. Building isn't really the issue as I would normally build all my own caging, just too darn cold in Michigan to be out in the garage trying to build anything. Also trying to factor in things like time spent(It would take me more than 4 hours to build 30 or so slots myself, probably a lot more), cost per slot, best use of space, and so on. Also thinking of potential resale value in a few years if things don't work out or something.

Slitherous, thanks for the link. Somehow never noticed that Vision made racks. One thing I did notice when comparing the different makers and their prices is that there really isn't a whole lot of difference in prices when you start breaking it down in term of cost per slot. Most were in the 70-100 dollar per slot range by the time you add T-stats and tubs for those that don't come with them. Still checking some things with that, and I still need to finalize the design for my own if I do go the DIY route.

Thankfully this isn't something I have to rush the decision on. Next show is March 9 and I won't know if the racks are even still available till then. If they are, I'll likely try to make a better deal with somebody( thinking around 1200?) or I'll just do the racks myself. Just want to get the caging issue under control before I look into getting too many more animals. Keeps the critters happy and I don't catch it from the wife because I'm scrambling to throw a setup together at the last second.

Btw, I've had an issue with that HAD(Herp Acquisition Disease) for a while now Slitherous, thats why I need more racks!! ;)

We were posting at the same time Gale. Wouldn't mind seeing your rack at all but don't go to any major trouble over it. I would really prefer a setup that doesn't require the lids if I can pull it off, but I like seeing how others do things anyway.

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Originally Posted by Darkbird

Btw, I've had an issue with that HAD(Herp Acquisition Disease) for a while now Slitherous, thats why I need more racks!! ;)

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I know the feeling! I was having that issue until I got my axanthics, now I'm happy FOR THE MOMENT. I've been eyeing some honeybees and orange ghost though.... hmmm.... ;)

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Originally Posted by sorraia

I know the feeling! I was having that issue until I got my axanthics, now I'm happy FOR THE MOMENT. I've been eyeing some honeybees and orange ghost though.... hmmm.... ;)

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Well, that's the insidiousness of the disorder, you will be sated for a time, but when you least expect it strikes again!! I was in "remission" for a couple of decades, but all it took was my daughter asking for a snake and a seemingly innocuous visit to a reptile expo and I was suddenly symptomatic again, (hopelessly so)! I know it's somehow related to GAS, (Guitar Acquisition Syndrome), and MAAS, (Model Airplane Acquisition Syndrome), both of which I suffer from. I was thinking about forming a support group, but I figure we'd just start trading snakes and would get even sicker....I'm doomed!!

S

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Originally Posted by Slitherous

Well, that's the insidiousness of the disorder, you will be sated for a time, but when you least expect it strikes again!! I was in "remission" for a couple of decades, but all it took was my daughter asking for a snake and a seemingly innocuous visit to a reptile expo and I was suddenly symptomatic again, (hopelessly so)! I know it's somehow related to GAS, (Guitar Acquisition Syndrome), and MAAS, (Model Airplane Acquisition Syndrome), both of which I suffer from. I was thinking about forming a support group, but I figure we'd just start trading snakes and would get even sicker....I'm doomed!!

S

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Oh no, I must be doomed too! Already looking at those honeybees, and there's an expo coming up in July that I want to go to. must resist!!!!

In addition to GAS and MAAS, I think it has to be related to MHAS (Model Horse Acquisition Syndrome). I have that, but have been in remission for a couple years. It's trying to sneak its way back into my life though!!!

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Originally Posted by sorraia

Oh no, I must be doomed too! Already looking at those honeybees, and there's an expo coming up in July that I want to go to. must resist!!!!

In addition to GAS and MAAS, I think it has to be related to MHAS (Model Horse Acquisition Syndrome). I have that, but have been in remission for a couple years. It's trying to sneak its way back into my life though!!!

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The "acquisition" aspect is what stitches it all together. I swear.....it must be genetic, and therefore inevitable; so yes.........you are doomed, but who wants to live without a passion(s) anyway? Not me!!

S

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I made my first rack out of melamine, but it was a disaster from the start, that stuff is HEAVY!

The ones we have now are made of 1 X 4 boards, with some water resistant shower board as the face boards. My husband made the frame from 1 X 4's, used 2 X 2's for the shelf supports, and the shelves themselves are 1 X 4. They are very light weight, immensely strong, and fairly cheap. Our three cost roughly $60 each to build. One is our main rack, it holds a total of 18 tubs of various sizes, most of which have lids. The breeding female rack, which houses my biggest females. And a smaller rack for my husbands newly started breeding colony of 5.

I can get some pictures up if you are interested.

Gale

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I would like to see pics:)

Sent from my EVO Design using Tapatalk 2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sorraia

I know the feeling! I was having that issue until I got my axanthics, now I'm happy FOR THE MOMENT. I've been eyeing some honeybees and orange ghost though.... hmmm.... ;)

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Lucky, axanthics seem to be a trigger for me.

I recently finished my first rack built out of melamine. It is 4ft long X 2ft deep X 6ft tall. It currently holds (24) 32 quart tubs (or (48) 16 quart tubs). Total cost in materials including tubs and heat tape was around $450 with a VE-300 thermostat. Much cheaper than a comparably sized vision rack. I have had great success with my homemade version. If you have even a small amount of construction skill, building your own rack is definitely the way to go at this stage of your collection. And if you ask real nice, Home Depot will cut the melamine to your specifications for you. ;)

If you look up frugle herper rack on here or youtube that rack is nice and cheap to make. I made one a couple of weeks ago and i love it.

Ok, update. The pro-grade racks are out for now. The bills I had to pay out of my taxes may have been a lot less than I thought, but as it turns out so will the tax return:(. Which just cut my budget by about 800 bucks. What i have left to spend will go towards some DIY racking and getting some of the breeding stock I am looking for. Thanks to everyone who responded, it was appreciated.

And, here is a start on a very cheap rack setup. Please excuse the somewhat poor quality of the shot and the fact that it's sideways. took it with my phone and for some reason that's the way it loaded. Also plz excuse the jumble of wires and T-stat cords, the heating is not done yet by a long shot. And yes I know the Boa is in wayyyyy too small of a tub, she is there due to her old cage still needing a final cleaning after a bout with mites in my collection. Quarantine lesson learned the hard way.

Edit: Ok, apparently I filled out my I-D-10-T form today as I can't figure out how to add the pic here. If anyone's interested, it's in my gallery. Only two pics in there right now anyway, so should be easy to find.:oops:

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Originally Posted by Darkbird

Ok, update. The pro-grade racks are out for now. The bills I had to pay out of my taxes may have been a lot less than I thought, but as it turns out so will the tax return:(. Which just cut my budget by about 800 bucks. What i have left to spend will go towards some DIY racking and getting some of the breeding stock I am looking for. Thanks to everyone who responded, it was appreciated.

And, here is a start on a very cheap rack setup. Please excuse the somewhat poor quality of the shot and the fact that it's sideways. took it with my phone and for some reason that's the way it loaded. Also plz excuse the jumble of wires and T-stat cords, the heating is not done yet by a long shot. And yes I know the Boa is in wayyyyy too small of a tub, she is there due to her old cage still needing a final cleaning after a bout with mites in my collection. Quarantine lesson learned the hard way.

Edit: Ok, apparently I filled out my I-D-10-T form today as I can't figure out how to add the pic here. If anyone's interested, it's in my gallery. Only two pics in there right now anyway, so should be easy to find.:oops:

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Good luck with the tax thing. There are numerous vids on YouTube on homemade snake racks. Put "snake rack" into the search bar and you get a bunch of choices, (some of them quite good actually). If I were going to make one myself I'd scroll through those vids first.

Here is a thread with instructions on how to post pics here on BP,Net, it seems like sort of a hassle at first read, but it is actually quite easy and not as complicated as it sounds, (however, you need to open a free "Photo Bucket" account, which is also easy). Here's that thread: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...th-pictures%29.

S