Leopard Spider or Spider Morph?

Hey guys,

I am new to the BP forums, so let me first say hello to everyone. :) I have heard lots about this forum and am happy to have joined you guys.

I need an honest opinion here. We received this ball python yesterday in the mail. Do you think it is a spider or leopard spider morph? This is a spin off of my boyfriend's (OctagonGecko729's) thread below. Please view the pictures here first before reading the back story. They were taken yesterday while we were taking her out of the box she was shipped in as well as earlier today.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Pinky-Survive/

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...18822046_o.jpghttps://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...85174731_o.jpghttps://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...41118982_o.jpghttps://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...49282668_o.jpghttps://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...15142067_o.jpg

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...29660331_o.jpghttps://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...49652598_o.jpghttps://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...96975286_o.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...29779145_o.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...72962300_o.jpg

Thank you so much! :)

K

Like I posted in your other thread...It's just a Spider...

Leo Spider...
http://www.coldbloodedaddiction.com/.../final/001.jpg

I'm not sure that's just a spider. It does have quite a bit of white to be a leo spider though. The head and thick pattern make me think leo but i'm not sure. I don't have any experience with leopards though.

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Like I posted in your other thread...It's just a Spider...

Leo Spider...

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Thank you so much for that picture. It is good to hear from someone who produces leopard spiders themselves. Do you happen to have any photos of hatchling leopard spiders to match up with this hatchling? I appreciate it as there is a lot of money riding on this particular deal. :)

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Originally Posted by Webley

I'm not sure that's just a spider. It does have quite a bit of white to be a leo spider though. The head and thick pattern make me think leo but i'm not sure. I don't have any experience with leopards though.

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Yeah thats exactly our thoughts. It has really high white sides which I can only find one example of a leopard spider with them. The pattern is pretty thick and strange for a single gene spider. There is also a good bit of spotting on the dorsal area of the snake but not very much at the base which is where all the leopard spiders I can find have the most spotting.

It also has a very busy belly pattern, more so then any spiders I can find.

Well as mentioned on FB, it doesn't look like it's a great feeder. My theory is that it's a regular spider, and the abnormal pattern is a result of an incubation issue. That would also help explain why it is so skinny. It was probably extremely difficult to start up. I'd get a refund ASAP if you paid leopard spider price for a spider :(

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Originally Posted by h00blah

Well as mentioned on FB, it doesn't look like it's a great feeder. My theory is that it's a regular spider, and the abnormal pattern is a result of an incubation issue. That would also help explain why it is so skinny. It was probably extremely difficult to start up. I'd get a refund ASAP if you paid leopard spider price for a spider :(

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She took a pinky from us no problem the first day, it is extremely skinny though. This breeder said she is 5-6 weeks old and has eaten 3 hopper mice, riiiight.

We didn't pay anything to the guy, he owed us some cash from 10months back and is now using this animal (advertised as leopard spider) as payment, finally. He does have other leopard morphs though that I know are legit. I'm sure this will lead to a full on BOI in a week or so.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

She took a pinky from us no problem the first day, it is extremely skinny though. This breeder said she is 5-6 weeks old and has eaten 3 hopper mice, riiiight.

We didn't pay anything to the guy, he owed us some cash from 10months back and is now using this animal (advertised as leopard spider) as payment, finally. He does have other leopard morphs though that I know are legit. I'm sure this will lead to a full on BOI in a week or so.

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My killerbe was started on hopper mice and was 65 grams or so when I brought her home. She looked more plump than the pictured snake..
http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/...cdd1278fa0.jpg

Well I hope you get everything figured out. Cheers.

Hmm, Could this be a http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/bald-spider/ ?

Only picture of one on the net. The breeder said this animal might have something in it that NERD was keeping secret. This breeder really isn't ontop of stuff though so I think he doesn't realize that the bald gene was already disclosed. I just can't wrap my head around the pattern on this animal he sent us. It does have the broken up pattern and spotting like Kevin describes the Bald lightning gene doing on animals.

Looks to me to be a spider with spots.. Sorry.

Regular spider hate to say it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Hmm, Could this be a http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/bald-spider/ ?

Only picture of one on the net. The breeder said this animal might have something in it that NERD was keeping secret. This breeder really isn't ontop of stuff though so I think he doesn't realize that the bald gene was already disclosed. I just can't wrap my head around the pattern on this animal he sent us. It does have the broken up pattern and spotting like Kevin describes the Bald lightning gene doing on animals.

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No, there is almost no chance it has the bald gene, it's still very new and crazy expensive. I've seen some crazy looking spiders, it happens. I'd demand he pay up or give you an animal that is actually the value of what is owed and is not questionable.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

Normal spider imo.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

No, there is almost no chance it has the bald gene, it's still very new and crazy expensive. I've seen some crazy looking spiders, it happens. I'd demand he pay up or give you an animal that is actually the value of what is owed and is not questionable.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

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Yep, working on that. He won't respond for days/weeks/months unless I threaten to disclose our 10 month long emails so yeah could take a bit. I also don't really want to give her back to him either though, not in the condition that she is in anyway.

I really appreciate all of your responses. We are not trying to second guess your expertise in the morphs but we feel like we did not provide good enough pictures of her neck and base (which is where leopards have the most spots). I would like to provide a couple more pictures of her neck and body that we took tonight to show all of her spots (thankfully she fed on a hopper mouse yesterday). I guess we are trying to be hopeful still lol.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...02752605_o.jpghttps://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...17358400_o.jpghttps://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...98196654_o.jpghttps://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...38007292_o.jpghttps://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...96695291_o.jpghttps://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...99249236_o.jpg

Even with the new pics still just a Spider.
The 2 things that say not Leopard Spider to me is the high white sides and there are no spots or pattern where the sides meet the belly.

You have to remember that every new hatchling gets half of its genetics from each parent. So even if it isn't a Leopard Spider half of it's genetic makeup came from a Leopard which can still influence the apperance of the animal.

The leopard spiders I've seen in person and in pictures look like they could be confused with clown spiders sometimes. Your spider just doesn't seem to have the full leopard look in my honest opinion.

Nice Spider but that is all.

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

Even with the new pics still just a Spider.
The 2 things that say not Leopard Spider to me is the high white sides and there are no spots or pattern where the sides meet the belly.

You have to remember that every new hatchling gets half of its genetics from each parent. So even if it isn't a Leopard Spider half of it's genetic makeup came from a Leopard which can still influence the apperance of the animal.

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Very important point which completely slipped my mind. I think thats probably whats going on with some of the pattern changes. The pairing was a male spider x pastel leopard female. The guy said he'd stand by the genetics of the animal so if thats the case I see no reason why I could not trade this in for something of equal value to him ($1500). I sent an email saying exactly that on tuesday, no reply.

im not sure, just throwing it out there......


could it be a spider het pied? Maybe a spider was bred to a leopard pied, and that leopard pied actually wasnt a homozygous leopard / super leopard, but a heterozygous leopard heterozygous pied. looks totally similar after all. then you would get 25% het pied, 25% leopard, 25% spider het pied, 25% spider leopard.

and some lines of pied appear to do some subtle things to the het pieds as well.

Im just thinking.... Maybe the guy isnt trying to fool you and the snake has leopard pied genetics going on, just that it got a normal het pied gene instead of the leopard gene. Of course leopard is much more valuable than het pied.

Or maybe all i wrote is wrong and its just a normal spider and the guy is trying to fool you.

EDIT: ok forget about it, now i see that the oairing was spider to pastel leopard. Then there is no way there could be het pied going on.

If you really have to examine so close and get other peoples opinions to see what they think the morph is...imo it really isn't the best example of that morph...if he owes you that much money, than you should be getting a snake with paper work of the genetics...or get the cash he owes you..he/she sounds like a shady person to begin with...beautiful snake though..good luck

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

This girl ended up dieing last friday March 1st. Found her upside down in her bowl so we first thought maybe the spider gene was to blame for the drowning since she was so corkscrewed out. However, we got her necropsied by Dr. Scott Stahl from SEAVS and he said that she had multiple organs failing and that the spider gene was not to blame. He said she was anemic, had kidney scarring (from dehydration), and had pneumonia. Also Dr. Stahl removed hemipenes, so it was a male.

The corkscrew behavior makes sense now that we know what kind of shape he was in internally. We knew he was dehydrated and skinny from the photos and a video we took but had no idea that he was doing that bad. It is often theorized that the spider gene is more prominent in times of stress or hyper activity (feeding) so it makes alot of sense that our boy was so corkscrewy due to the pain he must of been in internally.

We did QT this little guy but we are also going to now get several organs biopsied to make sure it wasn't carrying any protozoal or viral issues.

Oh my heavens what an ordeal!! I am so sorry :( props to you for going to Dr.Stahl and having a necropsy done. I tell people all the time you simply cannot put a price on piece of mind. And also props to you for quarantine. I am so sorry that whole transaction was such a mess. RIP little guy. I'm sorry for you but thank you for updating us.

Oh correction, she died March 8th.

I agree Tikigator, and with the money that alot of us have in our collections the necropsy fee is small change. The biopsies will be alot more costly but I feel it would be irresponsible to my customers not to get it done.

Thank you for the comfort and all of the replies so far...I'm so done with this situation mentally...when i found out "he" died it was very upsetting because I thought he was getting better and filling out more...then to find out he had so many underlying causes just makes me very sad. False hope.

So sorry for your loss. I'm glad you had a necropsy done. It should prove invaluable if you decide to go after the seller on the BOI, which I definitely think you should.

I'm not sure I follow. An offspring does get half it's chromosomes from its parents gamete cells. They combine to make a zygote. It doesn't mean that traits are shared necessarily though. In a leopard, it is a dominant animal and therefore if not in the phenotype, it is not in the genotype. You either have it or you don't. Now if the leopard gene is an exception then I'm totally wrong, but if it is the 'normal' rules then there should not be a leopard influence. If I'm wrong correct me, but hopefully I was able to be helpful. Anyways I think I see a spider with possibly some incubation issues, or just weird looking body and a crazy pattern

Oh I didn't read the last part, so sorry for the loss... Hope it didn't feel too much pain.

That really sucks, very sorry to hear. Even when people are deceived into thinking a snake is a morph, at least having a healthy snake is better than none. When it is so obvious they have been mistreated before you get them, it is an extra tragedy to see what people will stoop to for money. I was just about to comment on how much better 'he' was looking in the newer pics. I'm sorry for you loss and hope some justice comes of it. I recommend the BOI for anyone, new or not before purchasing from anyone. It is a terrible thing to care for someone else's neglect. :C