"White" patterned ball pythons?

I really love light colored ball pythons. My dream snake is something like this: http://www.royalconstrictordesigns.c...xspider12-544f

How can I get that without spider? And most of the Axanthics I see aren't as white as this girl. How do you get that light white/cream with a black pattern?

To me at least that just looks like the normal axanthic color with the white spider sides, color on top is what axanthics look like as babies. As for lightening it up, axanthic + pastel or fire seems to lighten it up and get a little more white. Check out the axanthic firefly, I bet it's what your looking for, not sure how they look as adults though. I got to see some babies in person..... just stunning.

The best/easiest way to keep an axanthic light (outside of making a true ghost, which is hard because it's a double recessive) is to add pastel. Axanthic spiders will darken up, but a true zebra bee (axanthic pastel spider) will hold the black-and-white contrast better. Presumably a killer zebra (super pastel axanthic spider) would do even better. You could probably also add fire or vanilla, etc.

You don't want the spider because of the wobble, I assume? Nothing looks like a spider other than a spider, except maybe the woma. And womas sometimes also have a wobble.

Best bet is a pinstripe. Axanthic pinstripes also do lose their silver color as they age. Adding enchi and pastel to the mix would probably do a lot to keep the brown away. I'm not sure, I haven't see any pastel axanthic pinstripes, let alone pastel/enchi/fire/pinstripes? Are they out there?

Well, the absolute lightest and truest silvery grey and stark black Axanthic I've ever seen is the Lightning Pied. http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/axanthic-pied/

So far, even as adults, they are that same pale silvery grey and deep black. Of course, they also carry a pretty good price tag, but mmmmmm are they beautiful. I got to see one in person at my last reptile show, and I like them even more in person.

Gale

That Spider is High White, so It changes the appearance some...

I would suggest not adding Pastel to Axanthic stuff...It's hard for the Axanthic to overcome such a Yellow Morph.

Fire, Vanilla, would be the best genes to add to Axanthics to keep them light!

There have been very few Blast Axanthics made...I have never seen a Blast Enchi Fire Axanthic...

Blonde Blast VPI Axanthic
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...st-Ax_6177.jpg

For comparison here is a Pin VPI Axanthic at about the same size...
http://www.coldbloodedaddiction.com/.../final/003.JPG

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

To me at least that just looks like the normal axanthic color with the white spider sides, color on top is what axanthics look like as babies. As for lightening it up, axanthic + pastel or fire seems to lighten it up and get a little more white. Check out the axanthic firefly, I bet it's what your looking for, not sure how they look as adults though. I got to see some babies in person..... just stunning.

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Oh wow I just looked it up and YES! If they stay that way as adults I would be in heaven.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

The best/easiest way to keep an axanthic light (outside of making a true ghost, which is hard because it's a double recessive) is to add pastel. Axanthic spiders will darken up, but a true zebra bee (axanthic pastel spider) will hold the black-and-white contrast better. Presumably a killer zebra (super pastel axanthic spider) would do even better. You could probably also add fire or vanilla, etc.

You don't want the spider because of the wobble, I assume? Nothing looks like a spider other than a spider, except maybe the woma. And womas sometimes also have a wobble.

Best bet is a pinstripe. Axanthic pinstripes also do lose their silver color as they age. Adding enchi and pastel to the mix would probably do a lot to keep the brown away. I'm not sure, I haven't see any pastel axanthic pinstripes, let alone pastel/enchi/fire/pinstripes? Are they out there?

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Yep I don't want to add any spider due to the wobble. I almost bought a bumblee male when I was shopping for my BP but decided against it last minute. Even though it doesn't effect the snakes quality of life, I don't want to feel bad for them. I'd hate to get one that corkscrews or flips over. I'd feel miserable over it.

And now would ghost give a similiar look? I just want the nice white/cream and the black. Not too picky about the pattern. Is Axanthic the only gene that will give me the white and black I'm seeking? Odd to me how spiders hold the white better than pins. I'm so used to horse genetics that BP genetics are all way over my head currently. Thank you for the help!

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

That Spider is High White, so It changes the appearance some...

I would suggest not adding Pastel to Axanthic stuff...It's hard for the Axanthic to overcome such a Yellow Morph.

Fire, Vanilla, would be the best genes to add to Axanthics to keep them light!

There have been very few Blast Axanthics made...I have never seen a Blast Enchi Fire Axanthic...

Blonde Blast VPI Axanthic
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...st-Ax_6177.jpg

For comparison here is a Pin VPI Axanthic at about the same size...
http://www.coldbloodedaddiction.com/.../final/003.JPG

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That's a pretty big color contrast! Thank you for the help and comparisons!

i think a fire axanthic should suit you, i might be producing them in a few years.

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Originally Posted by Ryan Chin

i think a fire axanthic should suit you, i might be producing them in a few years.

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I couldn't find one on the ball python morph list. Do you have a picture example? And a few years would be perfect because that's when I should be reading to start breeding. :)

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...fire-vpi-line/

I am also running VPI line with JKobylka's fires.

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

And now would ghost give a similiar look? I just want the nice white/cream and the black. Not too picky about the pattern. Is Axanthic the only gene that will give me the white and black I'm seeking? Odd to me how spiders hold the white better than pins. I'm so used to horse genetics that BP genetics are all way over my head currently.

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No, ghosts are their own thing. Pretty, but not black-and-white like that. But when you combine it with axanthic, it helps keep the brown away. It's called a "true ghost", an axanthic ghost. That's hard to do, because axanthic and ghost are both recessives. Way easier to work a dominant gene like pastel or fire or enchi into an axanthic line.

I can't really think of anything else that's really white-and-black-and-gray like that. I mean, you can also check out the panda pied, though there's still only two in the world, and they're currently running $20,000. (Guys, what does the adult lightening pied look like? It really didn't brown out at all?)

Oh wait: urban camo. Google urban camo ball python. Yeah.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

And now would ghost give a similiar look? I just want the nice white/cream and the black. Not too picky about the pattern. Is Axanthic the only gene that will give me the white and black I'm seeking? Odd to me how spiders hold the white better than pins. I'm so used to horse genetics that BP genetics are all way over my head currently. Thank you for the help!

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Axanthic reduces yellow pigment, which ball pythons have a lot of and its not supposed to touch the black pigment, so the gene does a lot of what your looking for. Besides cleaning up the axanthic, there are super black pastels, they are solid black on top and white on the bottom, no pattern tho. Mix in pied and it makes white patches on the black, thats called the panda pied as mentioned above.

Thanks so much guys! Even though it's a few years off I'm going to start planning. I really appreciate the help! :)

Hmm... Imagine an adult Axanthic Desert Ghost... :O

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

I would suggest not adding Pastel to Axanthic stuff...It's hard for the Axanthic to overcome such a Yellow Morph.

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I think it depends on the individual example, like any morph some are better examples than others, and the super pastel axanthic... yes please.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

The best/easiest way to keep an axanthic light (outside of making a true ghost, which is hard because it's a double recessive) is to add pastel. Axanthic spiders will darken up, but a true zebra bee (axanthic pastel spider) will hold the black-and-white contrast better. Presumably a killer zebra (super pastel axanthic spider) would do even better. You could probably also add fire or vanilla, etc.

You don't want the spider because of the wobble, I assume? Nothing looks like a spider other than a spider, except maybe the woma. And womas sometimes also have a wobble.

Best bet is a pinstripe. Axanthic pinstripes also do lose their silver color as they age. Adding enchi and pastel to the mix would probably do a lot to keep the brown away. I'm not sure, I haven't see any pastel axanthic pinstripes, let alone pastel/enchi/fire/pinstripes? Are they out there?

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The zebra bee looks good, but still a little muddy, adding that second pastel cleans it up exceptionally, really crisp. As for the others, I'd love to see/make them.

I've seen pictures of a few adult axanthic pieds, and yes they stay that elusive silvery grey. There is almost no browning at all. Several breeders here and in the UK have made them now.

Gale

Ok so to get an Axanthic Firefly I would then buy an axanthic and a firefly and cross them together. I'd get a 1/4 chance of fireflies, 1/4 fire, 1/4 pastel, 1/4 normal all het axanthic right? So then I would take that firefly and cross it back to the axanthic (gender permitting of course :oops:) and then once I get them bred them together what's the likelihood of axanthic fireflies? What would I outcross to after a few generations of linebreeding?

I'd also like to go for axanthic pins and axanthic genetic stripe pastel.

So another question I have is I'd prefer more of the marble look (like this http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...anthic-pastel/) instead of this http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...anthic-pastel/ with the alien/ghost heads. How do you get that?

Male:	Firefly, Het Axanthic (VPI)
Female:	Axanthic (VPI)
Percent	Fraction	Traits
12.5%	1/8	Axanthic (VPI), Firefly
12.5%	1/8	Firefly, Het Axanthic (VPI)
12.5%	1/8	Axanthic (VPI), Pastel
12.5%	1/8	Pastel, Het Axanthic (VPI)
12.5%	1/8	Fire, Axanthic (VPI)
12.5%	1/8	Fire, Het Axanthic (VPI)
12.5%	1/8	Axanthic (VPI)
12.5%	1/8	Het Axanthic (VPI)
View Results Page

Lets say you have the axanthic female or 2. You could start your firefly project and if the axanthic female isn't busy a season, I would just buy a pin het axanthic (which won't cost ya too much) and you can make axanthic pins that season.

As for the axanthic gstripe pastel, now your getting into the fun stuff :) double recessives.

The most direct way is to breed a axanthic to a gstripe with one or the other having pastel. If you are working on a firefly project, you already have a chance of making pastel axanthics, so lets use that for an example.

Male:	Pastel, Axanthic (VPI)
Female:	Genetic Stripe
Percent	Fraction	Traits
50%	1/2	Pastel, Het Axanthic (VPI), Het Genetic Stripe
50%	1/2	Het Axanthic (VPI), Het Genetic Stripe
View Results Page

you would then take the offspring and breed them to each other, at minimum you need a pastel double het to a double het

Male:	Pastel, Het Axanthic (VPI), Het Genetic Stripe
Female:	Het Axanthic (VPI), Het Genetic Stripe
Percent	Fraction	Traits
3.125%	1/32	Axanthic (VPI), Pastel, Genetic Stripe
9.375%	3/32	Pastel, Genetic Stripe, 66% Possible Het Axanthic (VPI)
9.375%	3/32	Axanthic (VPI), Pastel, 66% Possible Het Genetic Stripe
28.125%	9/32	Pastel, 66% Possible Het Axanthic (VPI), 66% Possible Het Genetic Stripe
3.125%	1/32	Axanthic (VPI), Genetic Stripe
9.375%	3/32	Genetic Stripe, 66% Possible Het Axanthic (VPI)
9.375%	3/32	Axanthic (VPI), 66% Possible Het Genetic Stripe
28.125%	9/32	66% Possible Het Axanthic (VPI), 66% Possible Het Genetic Stripe
View Results Page

so yes it is a long term project and you are dealing with many possible hets and statistically going to take a while. But on the way to your goal, you produce a lot of cool things that can help increase your odds once they are muture enough to breed. Example if you produce a axanthic gstripe but miss on the pastel, a pastel double het to an axanthic gstripe would give a 1/8 chance of hitting the pastel axanthic gstripe.

As far as the pattern, you would try to get founding animals that show the trait your looking for and then the babies have a good chance of also displaying it. You could also add a pattern gene like woma but it might screw with the coloring also, I personally don't believe we have any "pattern only" genes, they all seem to change the color a little, even if it is small.

IMO to meet all of your goals, focus on the firefly project first because it produces things that help you with your double recessive project, or even make the double recessive project that much cooler, why not try for firefly axanthic gstripes if you got the animals to do it? :)

So it's definitely the high-contrast black and white look that you like? You don't like crystals or phantom potions or anything like that?

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Originally Posted by loonunit

So it's definitely the high-contrast black and white look that you like? You don't like crystals or phantom potions or anything like that?

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Yep. I think the contrast is stunning. :)

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Male:	Firefly, Het Axanthic (VPI)
Female:	Axanthic (VPI)
Percent	Fraction	Traits
12.5%	1/8	Axanthic (VPI), Firefly
12.5%	1/8	Firefly, Het Axanthic (VPI)
12.5%	1/8	Axanthic (VPI), Pastel
12.5%	1/8	Pastel, Het Axanthic (VPI)
12.5%	1/8	Fire, Axanthic (VPI)
12.5%	1/8	Fire, Het Axanthic (VPI)
12.5%	1/8	Axanthic (VPI)
12.5%	1/8	Het Axanthic (VPI)
View Results Page

Lets say you have the axanthic female or 2. You could start your firefly project and if the axanthic female isn't busy a season, I would just buy a pin het axanthic (which won't cost ya too much) and you can make axanthic pins that season.

As for the axanthic gstripe pastel, now your getting into the fun stuff :) double recessives.

The most direct way is to breed a axanthic to a gstripe with one or the other having pastel. If you are working on a firefly project, you already have a chance of making pastel axanthics, so lets use that for an example.

Male:	Pastel, Axanthic (VPI)
Female:	Genetic Stripe
Percent	Fraction	Traits
50%	1/2	Pastel, Het Axanthic (VPI), Het Genetic Stripe
50%	1/2	Het Axanthic (VPI), Het Genetic Stripe
View Results Page

you would then take the offspring and breed them to each other, at minimum you need a pastel double het to a double het

Male:	Pastel, Het Axanthic (VPI), Het Genetic Stripe
Female:	Het Axanthic (VPI), Het Genetic Stripe
Percent	Fraction	Traits
3.125%	1/32	Axanthic (VPI), Pastel, Genetic Stripe
9.375%	3/32	Pastel, Genetic Stripe, 66% Possible Het Axanthic (VPI)
9.375%	3/32	Axanthic (VPI), Pastel, 66% Possible Het Genetic Stripe
28.125%	9/32	Pastel, 66% Possible Het Axanthic (VPI), 66% Possible Het Genetic Stripe
3.125%	1/32	Axanthic (VPI), Genetic Stripe
9.375%	3/32	Genetic Stripe, 66% Possible Het Axanthic (VPI)
9.375%	3/32	Axanthic (VPI), 66% Possible Het Genetic Stripe
28.125%	9/32	66% Possible Het Axanthic (VPI), 66% Possible Het Genetic Stripe
View Results Page

so yes it is a long term project and you are dealing with many possible hets and statistically going to take a while. But on the way to your goal, you produce a lot of cool things that can help increase your odds once they are muture enough to breed. Example if you produce a axanthic gstripe but miss on the pastel, a pastel double het to an axanthic gstripe would give a 1/8 chance of hitting the pastel axanthic gstripe.

As far as the pattern, you would try to get founding animals that show the trait your looking for and then the babies have a good chance of also displaying it. You could also add a pattern gene like woma but it might screw with the coloring also, I personally don't believe we have any "pattern only" genes, they all seem to change the color a little, even if it is small.

IMO to meet all of your goals, focus on the firefly project first because it produces things that help you with your double recessive project, or even make the double recessive project that much cooler, why not try for firefly axanthic gstripes if you got the animals to do it? :)

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Thank you very much! Man those last odds are pretty slim and with the small egg clutches I'm in for a long wait lol. It'll be a fun goal though. :) I don't really see that many people after the axanthics or genetic stripes so I feel like I'm going to be walking down the road alone. Hopefully I'll be able to sell the ones I produce that don't align with my project.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

Thank you very much! Man those last odds are pretty slim and with the small egg clutches I'm in for a long wait lol. It'll be a fun goal though. :) I don't really see that many people after the axanthics or genetic stripes so I feel like I'm going to be walking down the road alone. Hopefully I'll be able to sell the ones I produce that don't align with my project.

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I'm in the same boat, after my albino figures out if she has eggs or not from her last pairing, I will be pairing up her to our pastel hypo, hopefully making pastel double hets. Same odds and the same walking alone lol. All part of the fun :)