this is why we dont feed live

This ball python had to be put down this is why you dont put live mice in the same cage as your snakehttp://www.deviantconstrictors.com/images/care/dont-feed-live1.jpg sorry didnt post ill try again

that is why you dont LEAVE live rats in with your snake. that kind of damage doesnt happen in a few seconds. this is only caused by irresponsible live feeding. that is horrible.

Yup the only way that could have happened is when someone left a live mouse/rat in with the snake over night that doesnt happen in 5 minutes.

If you are actually a responsible snake owner you watch until your snake takes the rat. Not walk away.

*Shakes my head*

Jesus. Disgusting. I hope the owner learned his/her lesson or got out of the hobby entirely. ( I really want to same something harsher, but I don't know the story, and hate to assume...grrrrrrr though...really grrrr)

I feed half my snakes live, and no rat/mouse is ever in with a snake for more than 30min. All the while I stand by with something to insert into a biting rat if a snake catches is wrong. This poor baby looks not only like it was left with a hungry rat/mouse overnight (maybe longer) but also it looks very thin where it is not eaten.

Live is perfectly safe to feed.

That's shocking.. But yes live is fine if fed responsibly. Poor snake :( But I am curious about why the snake wouldn't strike and kill even if it didn't want to eat the rodent to get the rat/mouse to leave it alone.. That had to have been extremely painful. I would think any animal would eventually strike back.

That poor thing should be put down, man did you see how much of the head was eaten. I wish there was some formal way to punish neglegent keepers

Just curious, but why are you linking us to the first photos you get when you google "live ball python feeding"?

Live feeding is only dangerous if you let it be dangerous. There is no way a rat can do this kind of damage in a few minutes. If you feed live responsibly, the worst you will get is a bite here and there.

'This ball python obviously had to be euthanized. Based on what the owner of the snake said, he left the mouse in the cage with the snake overnight with no food for the mouse. This is obviously an extreme example of what can go wrong, but it illustrates the risk very well. Anything with a mouth can bite.' Is what it says on the page of the picture OP linked

Live is only dangerous when done irresponsibly. These snakes eat live in the wild! There aren't people in Africa thawing out rats to leave out for the wild bps...

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Originally Posted by ballpythonboy

This ball python had to be put down this is why you dont put live mice in the same cage as your snakehttp://www.deviantconstrictors.com/images/care/dont-feed-live1.jpg sorry didnt post ill try again

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I am not sure if you are just a fire starter or what, but that photo has nothing to do with feeding live. It has to do with ignorance, which it seems is present on both extremes of this issue.

I am sure you mean well. But you are going about it in a very negative way. First of all, this is a large and well established community of ball python owners and breeders. We know the risks of feeding live, and when we feed live we do it in the right way and this sort of thing never happens.

Second of all, trying to preach to a large group of people who have been raising and caring for these snakes for many years by telling them things they already know in a patronizing manner is not a good way to make friends.

I do appreciate you wanting to educate people on how dangerous irresponsible live feeding is, but I gently suggest you seek out places where people perhaps have not had a lot of experience with snakes and help them to understand what it means to be a responsible keeper.

Choose your words carefully, present your ideas in a gentle manner, offer advise in a pleasant way, and you will be welcomed pretty much anywhere.

Gale

Educating over fear mongering wins every time :gj:

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Originally Posted by ballpythonboy

This ball python had to be put down this is why you dont put live mice in the same cage as your snakehttp://www.deviantconstrictors.com/images/care/dont-feed-live1.jpg sorry didnt post ill try again

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This picture has been around a LONG time there is also a story behind it.

This is not the result of RESPONSIBLE live feeding, this is what happen when a rodent is left without food or water overnight with a snake.

Now this picture is like the boogieman, every now and then an INEXPERIENCE keeper or a F/T ADVOCATE (not sure which one you are) will post this picture to scare people of.

Now what is YOUR experience when it comes to live feeding, how many live prey and many snakes have you fed and most importantly how many severe injuries resulted from your feeding practice?


I feed live, I used to feed F/T, I probably feed 200 to 300 rats a months (which is not much by any means) but I can tell you that none of my snakes has ever sustained an injury.

Here is what I believe

I believe that when it comes to feeding it is about being knowledgeable and being responsible. I don't believe in scaring people of with a picture that is the result of and irresponsible owner.

People need to know their option and chose what work for them and their animal based on that knowledge and the convenience of the method they chose.

You want scary? Did you know you could kill your BP feeding F/T? :rolleyes:

Agreed with everyone.
I feed live and never had an issue. I also follow a strict list of rules when feeding live, which includes not leaving a feeder with the snake for longer than 30 minutes or less. Also keeping the feeder well fed and hydrated will keep the feeder from seeing the snake as a tasty meal....

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Originally Posted by Flikky

But I am curious about why the snake wouldn't strike and kill even if it didn't want to eat the rodent to get the rat/mouse to leave it alone.. That had to have been extremely painful. I would think any animal would eventually strike back.

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Because their defensive mechanism is to ball up. Not strike out as other species would do.
Hence the name "ball python". The poor thing was probably a sitting duck to the hungry feeder. :(

This is why you don't feed live unattended. I feed live with no problems, but never leave my snakes alone with their food for even a second, I watch like a Hawk. Feeding live is perfectly safe if you're responsible enough to put everything aside except that snake while he's eating.

1.0 ball pythons - Koba
0.1 pitbull/lab - Cinnamon
0.1 collie/elkhound - Fluffy
0.2 children
1.0 boyfriend

Deborah hit the nail on the head. You leave prey over night you must leave the prey with food, as the prey itself is an animal and does need to feed and drink.

Be responsible and don't stick a live rodent in the cage and leave it unattended.

Totally agree wIth what everyone is saying. Feeding live is safe if your responsible. I fed live just this Saturday, didn't take the f/t rat I purchased hopefully it isn't wasted money, and my Bp struck the rat on its tail leaving the rats head completely free to defend itself. Now if I wasn't around to stick a unsharpend pencil in the rats mouth I believe my Bp would have gotten seriously injured.

I feed live off of tongs. The rats feet never even hit the tub floor. I've never had a problem doing it this way.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

I feed live off of tongs. The rats feet never even hit the tub floor. I've never had a problem doing it this way.

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Live off tongs? That's a good way to get po'd scared feeder...
Why bother with live then??

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Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

Live off tongs? That's a good way to get po'd scared feeder...
Why bother with live then??

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Not at all. The feeder is gripped from the scruff of their neck and is as calm as can be. Live is much easier to feed than f/t.

My Mojave male just ate live as he was off feed for 2 months, perfect strike to the head within 30 seconds of rat dropped into tub, watched him until the rat was completely eaten, this is why you watch and make sure there is no complications. Off feed balls ignore food and some are very shy!

Does nobody pre-kill? It's simple and more humane for the prey.

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Originally Posted by shogun

Does nobody pre-kill? It's simple and more humane for the prey.

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No need to. My snakes do a great job of killing them quickly. :gj:

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Originally Posted by shogun

Does nobody pre-kill? It's simple and more humane for the prey.

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No, I don't feed prekilled. I feed live. That way there is no waste because if the snake does not eat, I can always feed it off next week. Babies that I intend on selling, I feed f/t. Because I feed both, I can attest that feeding dead rodents (f/t) takes me much more time than feeding live.

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Originally Posted by shogun

Does nobody pre-kill? It's simple and more humane for the prey.

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I have fed pre-killed before, but I no longer have the setup for it after I moved, so I just feed live and make sure to watch them while they feed.

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Originally Posted by shogun

Does nobody pre-kill? It's simple and more humane for the prey.

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Only if done correctly. Could get more inhumane, painful, and cruel if someone messed up a cervical dislocation for example. One can end up with a live, but paralyzed feeder. And CO2 isn't painless. It burns the eyes and nose for starters. I've euthanized hundreds of lab rodents and I can tell you, while it is the most humane out of all the official euthanasia methods, it's not painless or comfortless.

I don't do pre kill for my snakes. They're good at what they do. They are efficient and quick. Just as fast or faster than the CO2 chamber. Especially since I usually just feed smalls. The big girls take them down fast. In seconds really. By taking down, I mean the feeder is dead. I can't really think that is inhumane when the feeder is only in a coil for a few moments. When coiled, endorphins kick in and dull the feeder's pain receptors down.

I do pre-kill feeders sometimes for my ferrets. They're darn good at killing prey, but they're not as efficient if the prey is too large. Plus, larger the feeder, the more it tries to resist, fight or defend itself. The feeder also has a higher chance at hurting itself and suffering a long agonizing death if its too large. A ferret cannot restrain a big rat like a snake coil does. So to keep things safe and relatively painless, I may PK occasionally. But only because the pros and benefits of PK outweigh feeding them live if the feeder is too large. With smaller prey and for the snakes, not so much personally.



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Originally Posted by shogun

Does nobody pre-kill? It's simple and more humane for the prey.

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More humane than nature:rolleye2:

Killing them with co2 is about as humane as it gets when killing them, if you think it's perfectly humane you've never watched it done much.

Pulling tails(cervical dislocation) yeah, NOT HUMANE in any way. Nobody is perfect at it.

Whacking the rat/mouse, humane? NOT HUMANE, again nobody is perfect at it.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

More humane than nature:rolleye2:

Killing them with co2 is about as humane as it gets when killing them, if you think it's perfectly humane you've never watched it done much.

Pulling tails(cervical dislocation) yeah, NOT HUMANE in any way. Nobody is perfect at it.

Whacking the rat/mouse, humane? NOT HUMANE, again nobody is perfect at it.

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agreed. I'd much rather let the snake do what it has evolved to do. They are pretty good at it!

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Originally Posted by shogun

Does nobody pre-kill? It's simple and more humane for the prey.

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I feed pre killed. I put the rat in a bag and give it a good whack. Ive never had to whack it twice. I use to feed live and might start doing so again. I stopped after a rat went absolutely insane and was lunging and hissing and there was no way i was going to put my snake in there. But i am willing to try again.

After seeing pics like these, I never can get myself to understand why a BP would just sit there and let a rat chomp on them... why wouldn't they fight back and defend themselves? They can easily kill the rat if they wanted too.

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Originally Posted by lX V1P3R Xl

After seeing pics like these, I never can get myself to understand why a BP would just sit there and let a rat chomp on them... why wouldn't they fight back and defend themselves? They can easily kill the rat if they wanted too.

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Because a ball python's defense mechanism is to ball up, not to lash out. Hence their name.

Unmoving balled up snake = sitting duck

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Wow that is definitely an old picture. At first I thought this was a resurrected thread. That photo pops up every now and then and the same discussion follows :P. I actually like the discussion. Live vs f/t is a well-debated topic with great pros for each.

I prefer to feed f/t personally. It takes 1 good bite from the rat to damage the snake's eye. One bad strike from the BP to allow the rat to gnaw on them long enough to do some damage (It only takes a second). Several photos I've come across on kingsnake from reputable folks show a snake with a few small bite wounds either on their head or body. It's not life-threatening, nor will it interfere with the quality of the snake's life, but one aspect of keeping these snakes is photographing them. I get bothered when there's a little piece of stuck shed on a snake and I'm trying to photograph them. I want the snake to look flawless.

I also can't stand hearing the squeaking of the rodents when they're getting killed. I'm a softie, I know. I love rats and if I don't have to feed them while they're alive, I won't. I'm very grateful for the f/t market :D.

Still, I don't ever tell someone NOT to feed f/t because I know there is a responsible way to do it. I have fed live before when feeding the picky feeders, and I just don't like to do it. My personal preference.

One thing I will NEVER recommend is pre-killing. I have heard of too many stories of people failing to successfully pre-kill, and they end up hurting the rodent much more than if they just let the snake do it... I don't see the point in pre-killing either since the snakes really should do the job... Oh, and if I can't stand the squealing, I can't imagine what it must feel like to knock them out by slamming them into a wall or flicking them in the head hard enough to knock them out. I just can't see myself doing that, and it isn't me.

If you can't kill any way other than putting the rat in the bag and smacking it on the wall, you shouldn't be killing rats at all. It can be done quickly and humanely, but you do have to know how.

CO2 or cervical spinal separation are the way to go.

Blunt force trauma is an effective and quick way to do it. And from what ive heard co2 isnt painless.

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Originally Posted by Gerardo

Blunt force trauma is an effective and quick way to do it. And from what ive heard co2 isnt painless.

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The thing about blunt force trauma in a bag is you don't know where you're hitting the rat. You might hit it on the rump or side and do nothing but hurt the thing. Grab it by the tail and whack its back over something if you need to, but don't just blindly smack a bag against a wall. You owe the rat better than that.

Hadnt thought of that. I havnt had any rat survive the initial hit but i will definately do it like you said from now on.