Wood cage bottom?

Working on plans for building a small wood vivarium and was curious if a plexiglass/lexan bottom would work. I've seen where people are using PVS also. Any thoughts/suggestions?

Edit: Guess I should note that I'm planning on using a UTH in this setup and want to use the proper material so that it can be mounted to the outside of the vivarium

Another option that you can do is cut out a square in the wood and inlay a piece of tile flush with the bottom. Ceramic tile is an excellent conductor of heat. Then just mount the uth to the tile. Easy and 100% safe..

Is there any particular thickness of ceramic tile that should be used?

I used a 16"x 16" floor tile from home depot it was3/8" thick. It works really well because the wood bottom holds the heat once the tile heats up. From my tests you lose about 5% of the heat through transfer but that's less than glass.

Placing a UTH under a ceramic tile is in direct contradiction of the instructions. I would suggest it is NOT safe as they are known to melt from thermal buildup if not allowed to be vented on one side. Enclosing them in a small space is a hazard according to all the manufacturers I know of. The pads also should be checked ever few months for damage, faults, or areas of shorting this is hard if they are sealed in, if they are not they could be exposed to spilled water and short out if wet.

I would suggest pure PVC it is heavy (thermal mass) and a ok conductor (efficient to heat through) smooth and plastic easily cleaned (grout is not so easily cleaned) It works like wood and takes mechanical fastenings well. I have not found it to sag or deform like expanded pvc does it also heats easier. I would suggest a wood top with a PVC flooring, safer than using a product in a fashion it was not intended to.

i used a 5 gallon zoomed uth outside 3/4 mdf and it actually reached 108 + on the other side in a room with a 72 temp. ....

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Placing a UTH under a ceramic tile is in direct contradiction of the instructions. I would suggest it is NOT safe as they are known to melt from thermal buildup if not allowed to be vented on one side. Enclosing them in a small space is a hazard according to all the manufacturers I know of. The pads also should be checked ever few months for damage, faults, or areas of shorting this is hard if they are sealed in, if they are not they could be exposed to spilled water and short out if wet.

I would suggest pure PVC it is heavy (thermal mass) and a ok conductor (efficient to heat through) smooth and plastic easily cleaned (grout is not so easily cleaned) It works like wood and takes mechanical fastenings well. I have not found it to sag or deform like expanded pvc does it also heats easier. I would suggest a wood top with a PVC flooring, safer than using a product in a fashion it was not intended to.

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Kitedemon, learn and listen to what others have to say about what is going on before you open your mouth again.... im sick of you hawking everything I say! NO WHEREDid I say to put a piece of tile on top of an uth. I said and I quote" inlay a piece of tile into the wood bottom and attach the uth to the tile. " if my math is correct and you subtract 3/8" from 3/4" that leave you 3/8" air gap!!! I build custom cages for a living and I know what I am doing so back off!

Air needs too be freely. Water and heaters is a not a good idea. Exactly what do you think an insurance company would say if a heater was not installed exactly according to the instructions? They never look for an excuse to not honor a claim.

If you follow the instructions for commercial uths they state attached to the bottom with the whole container raised. Flexwatt in floor heating instructions are far more elaborate than your description.

If you don't accept my experience calibrating radient heat sources for 20 years why do you think I would accept you enclosure building experience?

I too have built enclosures for years why you choose to use the most complex solutions I don't know. I'll stop when you stop suggesting things based on myths, crazy complex ideas, and down right unsafe methods.


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Fine you want me to publicly make you look like a fool I have no problem with that at all. Its time that people see you for who you are... a one trick pony! Pvc , that is the only answer you have to give people. Just how safe is mounting a piece of platis to a heating element? I have two snakes that have burn scares in their heads from melted plastic from guys like you that think its ok to mount a heating element to something that melts! BTW did you ever contact Bob pound about the RHP? I didnt think so, and I definately have not seen any pics of your set ups. IF you remember I challenged you to post pics of the amazing set ups of the great kitedemon, where are those pics? I dont make things more complicated I make them better. Your suggestion costs almost 40xs more than mine, and my design is 100% more safe.

Here is a drawing of the design for the tile base. When complete, the tile rests on a lip of the wood, the tile is completely sealed into a bed of silicone making it totally waterproof. The UTH is then mounted to the underside of that tile on the OUTSIDE of the cage COMPLETELY sealed away from any moisture! The bottom of the cage acts sits up 1" from the surface it rests on and the tile is 3/8" inlayed into the wood giving you another 3/8" clearance. In total you would have a total of 1 3/8" air space under the tank to vent the UTH. Tile can not melt or burn so in the event of a thermostat / UTH malfunction do do not have to worry about melting plastic!!! So whats wrong with this design Kitedemon??? BTW Heres a few pics of my set ups, wheres yours? Still say I dont know what im talking about??http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...pscc4a99d3.jpghttp://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...psff8e354d.jpg

Well lets start with the melting point of full pvc... about 400ºF the safe working temp is around the 170ºF give or take it is used for hot water piping... Any snake will be cooked before the PVC melts.

I send Bob an email and am waiting for a reply. I know my physics are right. I also spoke to Dion about my ideas and he confirmed them. You are the one claiming RHPs do are more efficient that UTH and are not actually radiant heaters or that physics does not apply to reptiles...? I have posted nothing to you that if you opened a grade 12 physics text you could not read for yourself.

So you are saying a recessed pocket inside an enclosure with a heating element inside that water and remotely snake could have direct access to is safer than a correctly mounted UTH?

I know every electrical appliance I use is legal and UL approved in the use and application. My enclosures if I were to sell them would also be UL approved as every component is used expressly as directed in operation instructions and are un modified. I have had an inspector in to confirm that, my insurance and the law in Canada require that it be fully up to code. I cannot imagine an inspector approving a heating element in a wooden box. Would it have not made more sense to cut the floor of the enclosure away where the heater was to be located and attach it according to the instructions to the stone? Overly complex.


Bearded dragon's build I did.
http://thereptilereport.com/nice-cus...die-enclosure/

Custom door system V1
http://images108.fotki.com/v613/phot...sLounge-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

PVCx enclosure
http://images49.fotki.com/v855/photo...31/0112-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

planted red knee's
http://images56.fotki.com/v362/photo...D7_5264-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

Full custom (multiwall polycarbonate 250ºF melting in case...)

http://images108.fotki.com/v613/phot...1000673-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

part of my new hatchling rack I am designing...
http://images16.fotki.com/v258/photo...31/0683-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

I have more but i think that is enough my picture sharing site is under maintenance, I don't really want to bother my whole crew.

I work for a rescue agency and I though I'd seen it all I'd love to see pictures of plastic burns. I have one from my work they are quite unique.

Withdraw, the bit about the UTH, that is a reasonable system of sorts more complex than needed but better than I understood from your original post. Stone is a good heat sync and I would expect the thermal mass to help a bit more than a normal UTH would with ambient temps. I have seen your project pics before and it is nice work not to my taste but nice none the less. I never said it would not work just too complex and why would you have a RHP to deliver a hot spot when you have a UTH to deliver a hot spot that is way confusing?? Is the RHP in a other set of enclosures?

I suspect there is a lot of cash and time tied up in these enclosures. Likely much more than I have. Mine all I built (7 I guess) were about 670$ with heating (no tstat or back up tstat) and total 22 hours of time. Fast and easy.

Kite, I understand that you were/are using a rhp from Rbi. Those panels are not UL approved. I will give credit where credit is due, you have very nice set ups and yes mine were very expensive to build but they are my personal cages and this is what I do for a living so I went a little over the top just for advertising purposes. They are as much furniture as they are tanks. All of my enclosures come standard with the design I posted but with one or two things also to improve that but because of my trademarks I will not post them. I only use rhp in my personal enclosures, no uth but they are set up to do so if ever need be. I would not suggest anything to anyone that would put them or their animals in danger of fire. Yes I did rescue 2 ball pythons with plastic burns. The previous owner placed a heat lamp with 150w bulb over the edge of a glass tank with a plastic frame, the kind you buy at any local pet store. The bulb got so hot it melted the plastic and the two balls got the melted plastic embedded into their heads. They are doing well today but it was VERY bad when I got them.

But you are using plastic in your enclosures too are you not? It is rich to claim it is a hazard and use it your self. Hospital board is what I believe you have as interior covering (fibreglass reinforced panels)? Is that not polyester or polyepoxide with glass fibre reinforcement? I believe that glass fibre is only used with concrete and plastics. Lets just say that at 200º-400ºF melting points there is no issues with plastics? I don't believe a heater should be able to exceed 110ºF it is simply unsafe there should be no reason to if you need more than this to heat a cage to 90º it is painfully inefficient. Part of my dislike of RHPs inefficient mine in a test enclosure of 12 inches needs to run 130-160º to hold a floor temp at 90º that is a 40-70º loss in ten inches... you see my point? the PVC floor with a heater at 90.5º is 90º that is efficient.

I was told that the RB panel was CUL approved by the Canadian distributer. If it is not, it is on him due diligence has been completed. I have a commercial Arboreal enclosure that uses a RHP I didn't build it or install the panel.

OP you are going to have to forgive the side track. Unfair to you I am afraid. I stand by the plastic floor it is easy and simple. It is very clean and easy to work with it cuts with normal wood working tools I just use a wood blade on a table saw or bandsaw if you have access to one. Although the easiest is to buy the floor cut to size the only drawback is it cannot be mechanically sanded easily or glued with standard off the shelf glues it need specialized glues. There should be no need to glue it. I would suggest just screw it in place, and a block plane cleans the edge perfectly. It solves the heat through wood problem with little to no fuss. The method of the cut lap is fine just more work. I have never tried to heat stone with a UTH it in theory will work but I have no idea of how much heat would be needed, that is only a guess. It sounds like norwegn113 has not been using it either so perhaps he has tests on what kind of heat loss it has. There is no perfect enclosure there are just a set of compromises to match your home.

OP , by all means use whatever you believe to be the best. Mine was just another OPTION but apparently im not allowed to give any advice on this forum , and no longer will! Kite I am done with the constant belittling from you. Even when I give you compliments you insult me. The heating source inside an Rb panel has been banned in Canada, but you knew that im sure! ( pro pro heat uses a different design than Rb). I do not feel that I should have to CONSTANTLY explain myself to you . It is completly unfair to the people of this forum to have an individual that will not allow the opinions of others be heard. When signing up for this forum I thought it was a PUBLIC forum but your behavior has proven it to be otherwise. Thank you so much for again " hi jacking" another members thread to spread your hate of me. This is the second time you have done it and the second time I had to remind you of it. I will continue to stand behind my product because it works and I have many satisfied customers. At the end of the day, I will continue to sell my product and you will still be just a "cyber bully" spreading your hate ( but just no longer at me so find yourself another person to attack!)

I am not 'attacking' you. I did not think I was belittling you either I though that we could come to a middle ground that if the enclosure heats to over 200ºF melted plastic was of little concern. You do use plastic panels in your enclosure so pointing out it is a hazard seems rather hypocritical.

I don't know whom the manufacturer of the tape in the panel that is not my problem either (it is marked with korean characters I think) it was sold in Canada and it is not legal to sell unapproved heating appliances either way but i asked the canadian dealer and was told it was CUL that is good enough for me as it covers my liability. I was told it is approved and to the best of my understanding it is.

I am pointing out that IMO a heat source that needs to be run at 40-60º over the desired temps does not seem efficient does it to you?

I actually thought that I was mending some fences a touch. Pointing out my perspective in a different way and coming to a middle ground on plastics you use them so clearly you feel it is safe. I use them and I feel they are safe why do you claim they are not? Are you saying you do not use glass fibre paneling ? Or that it is not plastic with fibre glass reinforcement? Or that you never thought about it? Which is also valid.

Wow ... That was a lot more info then I was expecting. Thanks for sharing.

I'm still on the fence about the design, but currently leaning toward a design with a 2 piece glass bottom that I saw on another forum. It doesn't look too difficult and should work well as all of our snakes are a few months old right now. I'll probably put your guys ideas to use on the bigger setup builds a little down the road.


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forum...ml#post7608085




Kite/Norwegn: You both have some nice builds. Ill be happy if mine turn anywhere near that nice. How long have you guys been building cages?

That is an interesting design. I am not totally sure of the probe placement. I am not massively apposed to interior placement but I would rather see a surface mounting UTH do not effect air temps hugely so this type of mounting maybe not as accurate as I would like.

The top openers are super easy to clean. I have help trouble shoot a design of a top opener for a local zoo. They ended up with a double latch and double hinges at the top corner but a second latch system at the lower corner under that. It allowed for the top and back side to drop flat and the contents be dumped out and saved a bit of time cleaning and with 50 enclosures even a min amounts to almost an hour of time.

The ultratherm instructions state an air gap must be provided (at least the sheet for US and Canada do) . The double glass system is interesting but I would suggest overly complex a single layer would be fine and just tape the UTH to the bottom. Glass is an interesting beast to work with it is hard to get warm but once it is it holds heat well (thermal mass basically how heavy something is. the principal of a masonry fire stove) It also does not transmit heat well either. It should be fine I might make a suggestion get a second one just in case. It could be a bad situation if during cleaning you dropped and broke it . Glass can be expensive it seems to depend on regional issues. You could use straight PVC as well if you call a plastics fabricator they may have a scrap piece that you can get cut and buy.

My story is long and complicated. I used to work with a company called Volkskayak building wood epoxy kayaks in the summer. We did classes and builds all summer, in the winter I got laid off, but often as a result of being with them we (the owner and I all there were just the two of us) did odd jobs. We built experimental air foils and structural columns all kinds of wacky things. Including a large water tank for reptiles. My first close exposure to herps in fact. It was a fun build and then we were asked to design an enclosure system which Gerry (VK owner) had zero interest in. So I did it was a really interesting idea cold moulded wood construction the client ended up buying pvcx (cost was far too much I didn't really understand the market at the time.) VK ended up closing due to insurance (policy went from reasonable $ to being re classified to impossible $$$) I went back to school and got a job as a photo tech and ended up building custom photo gear (processors and adapting parts and such) I did a little bit of design work for the reptile pond guys off and on and then started to keep herps myself and designing and building my own enclosures. The best is likely the 'lucy lid' aquarium mod. It is cheap fast and super easy and works really well it side turns an aquarium solving most of the heat issues and all of the humidity issues. The reptile pond was built in 1988 so off and on since then I have been building and designing reptile enclosures so 25 years. Oh, now don't I feel old.

If the bottom was PVC would 1/4 inch work or should it be thicker?

That is usually what I use. glass would be fine too it just sucks if you break it while cleaning... Yes I have broken a front door while washing it and needed to find something to replace it in a hurry. I now keep a cut shaped bit of plywood in case.