Still not eating and VERY active

I've been trying to switch my BP to F/T mice for about 3.5 weeks, and he has yet to go for it. During this time, he has also become VERY active in his tub. Roaming a lot, often during the day, and frequently trying to push the lid up with his head (presumably to get out). He also now comes out of his hides any chance I go near his tub to see what's going on. Before trying to make the switch to F/T, he used to eat every 5 days like clockwork and tended to be more active a day before feeding. Otherwise, he kept to his hides, more in line with the classic "A hiding BP is a happy BP."

I'm not sure if his change in behavior is due to his hunger or if he's stressed. Anything to worry about or look for at this point? Also, he's about 6 months old and ~470g at last weigh in. I know adults can go months (or a year even) without eating, but how long is too long for a BP this age?

Husbandry is good, as far as I can tell. 2 hides, water bowl, paper towels, hot side belly temp 90-93, cool side ambient 78-81. I attempt feeding a F/T mouse every 5 days at night in low-light conditions.

Lower your hot side temp. Should be a high of 90. Did you try doing pre killed on the tong feedings before switching to just F/T?

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Originally Posted by Flikky

Lower your hot side temp. Should be a high of 90. Did you try doing pre killed on the tong feedings before switching to just F/T?

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Yep. He has taken pre-killed at least 5 times before, both off tongs and on his own after leaving it in his tub. I have tried frozen in the past once before and after 1-2 refusals, went back to pre-killed or live. I'm trying to be consistent and stick with frozen from here on out because my access to live food is limited.

Granted, I'm newer to this with bp's but since he's taken pre-killed before without an issue and yet is refusing f/t, I would wonder if this is a prey temperature issue. You don't want to get the rat/mouse too warm but at the same time, not warmed through can cause them to refuse as well. I've switched all 4 of my bp's straight to f/t without an issue. Every single refusal I saw was due to a rat not being warm enough or being too warm. Once I warmed them up or let them cool down properly, the bp would take it right away. The prey should feel slightly warm but not hot. Personally, I use my dragon's heat lamp to get them to the right temp and just go by feel. If it feels like a live rat in my hand, it's good.

Try rats, a bp that size should be on rats anyway. Your temps sound fine, and the extra activity im sure is from hunger.

Have you tried braining the mice? That might do the trick.

Make sure you're heating the mice enough. A mouse's body temp is 98 degrees F.

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Originally Posted by Dracoluna

Granted, I'm newer to this with bp's but since he's taken pre-killed before without an issue and yet is refusing f/t, I would wonder if this is a prey temperature issue.

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Originally Posted by barbie.dragon

Make sure you're heating the mice enough. A mouse's body temp is 98 degrees F.

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Yeah, I've been trying to do that as well. I've been warming them to temp sitting in hot water (from the faucet) and/or under a CHE. I use an IR gun to get the temp up to 100 degrees and warm to touch.

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Originally Posted by cmack91

Try rats, a bp that size should be on rats anyway. Your temps sound fine, and the extra activity im sure is from hunger.
Have you tried braining the mice? That might do the trick.

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I tried frozen rat pups in the past and he didn't go for it. I went back to mice since I figured that would be easier, and it'd be only changing one thing at a time. My intention always was to go to rats; instead, he's been eating 2 mice per feeding to reach 10-15% body weight. Overall, he seems like a pretty picky eater, but I only have one BP and no basis for comparison.

Is braining the mice splitting their heads open? If so, no, I haven't done that yet. What's the typical method for doing this?

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Originally Posted by Marduk

Yeah, I've been trying to do that as well. I've been warming them to temp sitting in hot water (from the faucet) and/or under a CHE. I use an IR gun to get the temp up to 100 degrees and warm to touch.



I tried frozen rat pups in the past and he didn't go for it. I went back to mice since I figured that would be easier, and it'd be only changing one thing at a time. My intention always was to go to rats; instead, he's been eating 2 mice per feeding to reach 10-15% body weight. Overall, he seems like a pretty picky eater, but I only have one BP and no basis for comparison.

Is braining the mice splitting their heads open? If so, no, I haven't done that yet. What's the typical method for doing this?

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Stupid question but when you say that you're warming them to temp sitting in hot water, is the mouse getting wet? If so, try letting them thaw in the fridge and then heating using a light, etc. where they are not wet. It does take some of the smell off and my bp's look at me funny when I've tried feeding them wet rats. Corns don't mind eating wet prey but bps seem to.

Braining is opening their heads. With pinks, I just use a toothpick but with an adult, take the tip of a steak knife or some small, sharp knife to split their head open just a bit on the forehead of the mouse. It's not very pretty but it does increase the smell.

My balls all eat wet rats. I haven't had a problem with it *shrug* I get the rats as hot as possible in water from my bath tub. They cool off pretty quickly. Of course, I do make sure to dry the rats off pretty well

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Originally Posted by Dracoluna

Stupid question but when you say that you're warming them to temp sitting in hot water, is the mouse getting wet? If so, try letting them thaw in the fridge and then heating using a light, etc. where they are not wet. It does take some of the smell off and my bp's look at me funny when I've tried feeding them wet rats. Corns don't mind eating wet prey but bps seem to.

Braining is opening their heads. With pinks, I just use a toothpick but with an adult, take the tip of a steak knife or some small, sharp knife to split their head open just a bit on the forehead of the mouse. It's not very pretty but it does increase the smell.

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Yeah, the mouse does get wet. I keep them in a ziploc, but they get wet inevitably. I pat them dry, which is what I gathered other people did. I'll definitely try heating by other methods though. Never thought about the water reducing the smell, but it must. My BP seems more receptive to smell than anything else, and my main gripe about trying F/T is that even when fully thawed, they don't smell as much as prekilled or live.

And I'll resort to braining if I have to. Thanks for the info.

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Originally Posted by Marduk

Yeah, the mouse does get wet. I keep them in a ziploc, but they get wet inevitably. I pat them dry, which is what I gathered other people did. I'll definitely try heating by other methods though. Never thought about the water reducing the smell, but it must. My BP seems more receptive to smell than anything else, and my main gripe about trying F/T is that even when fully thawed, they don't smell as much as prekilled or live.

And I'll resort to braining if I have to. Thanks for the info.

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Snakes go strictly by heat and smell when it comes to what is food. If it's the right temp and it smells like a rat, they should be alright.

Forget a rat under a heat lamp for 30 minutes and that will smell much worse than live or prekilled. Last time I did that, the second I walked into the snake room, every head was out and a couple were striking the sides of their containers. Honestly, a live rat shouldn't smell that much different than a f/t. Neither should have a strong odor to them. You could always try 'overheating' a little like that and then letting the rat cool back to temp for him. It still had that strong rodent smell to it once it cooled to 'live' temperature. Better yet, let it cool in the room he's in so he's sitting there smelling it. That will also help get him into a more receptive feeding mood.

Also, just be patient. It took me a bit to convince Reg (adult male who'd had nothing but live all his life) that he really could eat the rat I was holding. It was warm, dry, and he could smell it just fine but it wasn't live like he was used to. I still have to do a little rat dance with it though I've found that just the natural bit that my hand shakes is enough to entice him. It makes it vibrate which seems to work better than dragging it around the cage as if it were alive and free to roam. Another trick I've used is to leave the lights off in the room and just use the light from my phone, pointed at the ceiling. It keeps them more at ease especially if they are just switching over.

Hope something helps. I realize that I've gotten lucky in all of mine switching over immediately to f/t but animals also have different personalities. Eventually, you'll figure out what works best for him and it will all be gravy from there.

5 weeks, and the little bugger still won't eat :mad:
He's only lost ~15-20g since he started refusing, but he's def. looking thinner..
Keep going? (any encouragement for the reluctant newb is welcomed)

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-b...6+44+33+PM.jpg

I had problems switching my BP to f/t. I finally found a way that worked, you should try it.

Thaw the rat (in a sandwich bag) in bucket of hot water till its mostly thawed. Dump the water out and fill the bucket again with hot water. Let it sit till its fully thawed. When its done, take the rat (still in the bag) and put it in your sink, let hot water drain onto its HEAD ONLY for about 3 minutes or so. After that, take it out of the bag and with a pair of tongs, drag the rat on the bottom of the tank like it's alive and moving. My BP goes for it a good 75-90% of the time!

I used to feed my BP live and she was just like yours, a non stop eater (I even fed her twice a week). When I switched to frozen, I tried every trick people told me and nothing ever worked. I randomly tried what I just explained to you and it seems to be working great! I've been feeding her like this for about 3 or 4 months now.

Good luck!

I have no clue why your BP would still be refusing to eat F/T but maybe my method of preparing F/T rats for feeding will help you.

I get my rats freshly gassed from a rat breeder near me in a big ziploc bag. When I get home, I weigh and individually bag each rat and throw them all in the freezer. When I am ready to feed one to my BP, I just take one of the ziploc bags out without letting it defrost slowly or anything. I then get hot water from the tap in a cup. The water is hotter than most people want to put their hand under. I then place the cup in the same room as my BP and open the ziploc bag. I then slide the rat down to one of the corners of the bag so its head is in a corner (this is because the bag tends to want to float). I then use my fingers/tongs to push the ziploc bag into the hot water in the cup until the portion of the bag with the rat in it is underwater, careful to not get the open end of the bag in the water, then just place tongs or something over the top of the bag so it'll kind of stay down in the water and not float up too much. Leave the rat for a bit and come back later to check on it, it should be mostly thawed and soft now, I then get a fresh cup of hot water and put the bag back in for just a little bit to get the body temp up on the rat. I then take the rat out and place the head under the heat lamp (Note: The rat never gets wet) for a few seconds, this usually gets my BP out of his hide and sniffing for the rat, then it's time to feed him and it usually takes less than 10 seconds for him to strike and coil.

If needed, I'll take pictures on Tuesday when I feed him.

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Originally Posted by mercerasian

I have no clue why your BP would still be refusing to eat F/T...

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You and me both.

Last week I prepared a frozen mouse purchased from a local pet store. I heated him up well under a CHE to avoid getting him wet. The mouse became so soft, his stomach ripped open when I picked him up with tongs. The room reeked of dead mouse. My BP was very responsive to the smell and became SUPER active. I tried feeding him the opened mouse but no go... Mouse temp was about 98 degrees, and his head was 103 (according to my IR gun). He "smells" the food when presented and just stares at it. Zombie dance does nothing; leaving it overnight does nothing.

So envious of all the stories I read where people say, "Hey, just tried F/T and he just took it!" Grrr.

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Originally Posted by Marduk

You and me both.

Last week I prepared a frozen mouse purchased from a local pet store. I heated him up well under a CHE to avoid getting him wet. The mouse became so soft, his stomach ripped open when I picked him up with tongs. The room reeked of dead mouse. My BP was very responsive to the smell and became SUPER active. I tried feeding him the opened mouse but no go... Mouse temp was about 98 degrees, and his head was 103 (according to my IR gun). He "smells" the food when presented and just stares at it. Zombie dance does nothing; leaving it overnight does nothing.

So envious of all the stories I read where people say, "Hey, just tried F/T and he just took it!" Grrr.

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I'll admit I'm one of those lucky people with my guys though my big male still occasionally looks at me like I'm crazy and goes back in his hide but he was on live for 2 years before being switched. He prefers if I dangle it right outside his hide and let it just kind of tremble. If I move it too much, he won't touch it. He also pulls it back into his hide immediately.

A trick for thawing them out without having them pop like that (nothing smells worse than that!) is to let them thaw in the fridge or on the counter (fridge is safer) before heating them up slowly. Every time I've tried to quick thaw whether it's in the oven on low or under a heat lamp, the strikes either have to be to the head or I'm cleaning rat guts up off my snakes and cages. Only my corns will eat an exploded dinner but they'll eat anything... My bp's lose their appetite. When heating, try it in the room with him. If it gets a little too warm, it will smell more and if you can get him in that excited mood before trying to feed it to him, hopefully it will help with a strike and constrict. Just let it cool off some before offering so he doesn't get burned.

Another bump..

Can anyone chime in for me re: how long a 6 month old ball python can safely go off feed? I'm approaching 6 weeks at this point. I know adults can go much longer, but I have no idea what's safe/appropriate for 6 months. He's holding weight at 465g pretty steadily at this point (see pic above).

I let my F/T rats sit at room temp to thaw (3-4 hours for smalls, less for smaller). I then hit the head with a hair dryer (on high) for ~30 seconds and offer it to my BPs with tongs (holding the scruff, not tail). My BPs are so conditioned to this now that I don't even attempt to feed any that aren't out roaming the tub within a minute of me switching on the hair dryer.

Add: As long as he's holding his weight, he's fine.